God..."The Biggest FAILURE" in the Bible? - Copeland Implies

Bruce S · Nov 7, 2003

Interesting dialogue from an interview with the owner and founder of TBN and Kenneth Copeland:

Kenneth Copeland: "You know everybody you ask, you say, Whos the biggest failure? They say, Judas. Somebody else will say, No, I believe it was Adam. Well, how about the devil?"

Paul Crouch: (amazed.)

Kenneth Copeland: "Hes the most consistent failure . . . but hes not the biggest in terms of material failure and so forth. The biggest [failure] in the whole Bible is God. . . . Wait, wait. Dont you turn that set off. You listen to us. I told you. . . . Now, you sit still a minute. You know me well enough to know I wouldnt tell something I cant prove by the Bible.

"He lost His top ranking of most anointed angel, the first man He ever created, the first woman He ever created, the whole earth and all the fullness therein, a third of the angels at least. Thats a big loss, man! I mean you figure up all of that, thats a lot of real estate, gone down the drain.

"Now, the reason you dont think of God as a failure, He never said Hes a failure. (Paul Crouch and others laughing on the set.) And you are not a failure until you say you are one." ("Praise-a-Thon" program on TBN [April 1988.)

Implication= God couldn't control heavenly and earthly events, he failed but we don't think this way because he never admitted it!

Now THAT is a very interesting point of view, that God himself cannot control the Angels and his creations.

This one should be interesting, for it does open up a topic that I find many might like.

Question: Why DID 1/3 of the Angels defect? Sure, Lucifer, and perhaps a few top echelon Angels "could" have aspired to "be like God" but what of the others? Presumably, they, being created beings, with full knowledge of, and presumably access TO, the sphere around God, could see that God outranked the Archangels leading the rebellion?

So, why would Copeland have such a point of view, much less actually state it?

LINK OUT TO ENTIRE INTERVIEW: > http://www.letusreason.org/Pent37.htm

victoryword · Nov 7, 2003

And as Paul Harvey would say - "here's the rest of the story"

GODThe BIGGEST FAILURE OF ALL TIME!

James Spencer

In Christianity in Crisis Hanegraaff also suggest that Copeland believes "God is the biggest failure of all time." It is true that Copeland uttered those words, but a rational person would ask "What does he mean by them?" Words are symbols which represent thoughts. Our job is to take a mans words and figure out what he meant by themnot to try to trap him into translating his words into a meaning he did not place on them.
Hanegraaff suggests Copelands words mean he has no respect for God and deems Him to be a failure. If Copeland believes that, he is not a Christian, let alone a minister of the gospel!

Of course, that is not what he means!When you go to those words in context, it immediately becomes clear what he is saying. He is addressing the fact that people get down on themselves because of their personal failures. So he reminds us that God Himself is a "failure" in the sense that He "failed" whenin Copelands words"He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the fullness therein; a third of the angels, at leastthats a big loss, man." He made that statement on a "Praise-a-Thon" program on Trinity Broadcasting Network in April, 1988.

Obviously, the failures here were Lucifer, Adam, Eve, and the demon angelsnot God. Copeland is saying that God has suffered disappointment and can understand our human condition. It is ludicrous to try to suggest from the text that Copeland sees some flaw in God in all this. That is absolutely not what he was saying. When Hanegraaff plays that game, he is being supremely biased and he undermines truththe very thing an apologist should be striving to exalt.

Copeland in saying "God is the greatest failure of all time" is being ironic. He is using a rhetorical device to communicate something about the heart of God for his creatures. This is a preaching technique pastors have used throughout the ages. To suggest that Copeland is attacking the character or nature of God is as backwards as saying he doesnt think Jesus is God.

But Hanegraaff, in his determination to throw the Faith Teachers out of the Church not only claims they believe Jesus is not God and that God is a failure, he also says the Faith Teachers believe men can become gods.

For more of your reading pleasure, read Spencer's full article at this link:
http://www.mazeministry.com/resources/books/heartstext/chap11.htm

rookie · Nov 7, 2003

Thanks for that because I would have taken it that Copeland was saying God is a failure.

God gave man free will, we failed him. I don't know about the angels though.

rookie

victoryword · Nov 7, 2003

rookie said:
Thanks for that because I would have taken it that Copeland was saying God is a failure.

God gave man free will, we failed him. I don't know about the angels though.

rookie

You're most welcome my friend.

The Faith Teachers certainly have their shortcomings (along with EVERY denomination and movement within Christianity) but I find it a shame that so much is said about them that has no basis in truth.

I have a sermon book by Warren Wiersbe where he collects sermons from some late classic (and not so well known but orthodox) preachers. One of them has a sermon titled:
How To Conquer God

I believe the preacher was Clarence E. McCartney. I'm at work and the book is at home so I cannot say for sure (as a matter of fact, the title may not be totally accurate but it is close). As I recollect, the sermon is simply dealing with people like Jacob and the woman whose daughter was vexed with a spirit who Jesus ignored at first. He uses this and other Biblical illustrations to teach people "how to conquer God" or in better terms, how to get God's attention when it seems like he is ignoring you.

Certainly the preacher was not saying that we could wage a war against God and win. Furthermore, no one would have even suspected him of making such a claim. Yet such liberties are taken with Copeland and others. People will surely have to answer to God for such dishonesty in dealing with other members in the body.

Bruce S · Nov 7, 2003

victoryword said:
You're most welcome my friend.

The Faith Teachers certainly have their shortcomings (along with EVERY denomination and movement within Christianity) but I find it a shame that so much is said about them that has no basis in truth.

Thank you VictoryWord, for clearing this up, nice detective work!

victoryword · Nov 7, 2003

Bruce S said:
Thank you VictoryWord, for clearing this up, nice detective work!

Thank YOU for the kind response. I almost thought I was in for a battle

Duggie · Nov 7, 2003

rookie said:
rookie said:

Thanks for that because I would have taken it that Copeland was saying God is a failure.

Click to expand...

Yeah me too!!! I have friends who vehemently defend not only the Copelands but most WoF teachers and even they have told me that most, if not all of these quotes have been taken entirely out of context. If I am honest I have been to quick to judge some of these teachers based upon quotes and speculation. Thats not wise!!!

chosen1975 · Nov 7, 2003

Hey that was good, very good indeed

Andrew · Nov 8, 2003

Excellent job VW!

SavedByGrace3 · Nov 8, 2003

Duggie said:
Yeah me too!!! I have friends who vehemently defend not only the Copelands but most WoF teachers and even they have told me that most, if not all of these quotes have been taken entirely out of context. If I am honest I have been to quick to judge some of these teachers based upon quotes and speculation. Thats not wise!!!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that Duggie. It is refreshing to hear more and more people getting wise to the truth. Nobody says these preachers are perfect... none of us are. But the attacks and accusations being made against them are on the whole unfair; and in many instances being made with ulterior motives. Let's give them the same level of trust and benefit of the doubt we would want receive ourselves.
Blessings to you again Duggie!

Duggie · Nov 8, 2003

didaskalos said:
didaskalos said:

Thanks for that Duggie. It is refreshing to hear more and more people getting wise to the truth. Nobody says these preachers are perfect... none of us are. But the attacks and accusations being made against them are on the whole unfair; and in many instances being made with ulterior motives. Let's give them the same level of trust and benefit of the doubt we would want receive ourselves.

Click to expand...

I appreciate those words my friend and totally agree with that last sentence!!!

Grace_Alone4gives · Nov 8, 2003

I disagree with the last sentance. The Bible clearly states NOT to trust ANYONE - except God himself.

Isaiah 2:22 Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

Pslam 40:4 Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust.

I do not trust the Coplands or the WOF group as a whole. Being an ex-Benny Hinn fan, I have leared a lot about where to place your faith and trust - and it is the Lord alone. Bible teachers are good, Theologins are good etc...but placing trust and faith in men is not advisable.

Just my thoughts.

SavedByGrace3 · Nov 8, 2003

HopeTheyDance said:
I disagree with the last sentance. The Bible clearly states NOT to trust ANYONE - except God himself.

Isaiah 2:22 Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

Pslam 40:4 Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust.

I do not trust the Coplands or the WOF group as a whole. Being an ex-Benny Hinn fan, I have leared a lot about where to place your faith and trust - and it is the Lord alone. Bible teachers are good, Theologins are good etc...but placing trust and faith in men is not advisable.

Just my thoughts.

To which I can only respond with one of the greatest collections of words to ever fall upon human ears:

Co 13:
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Love and that trust it generates is the essence of all fellowship. No relationship can exist without trust. I trust my wife without question. If you love someone you will trust them even when it is to your hurt, and even when it makes you look like a fool to do so.
A life without love and the trust that it generates is a lonely, empty existance. This is not what God intended for us.

Grace_Alone4gives · Nov 8, 2003

Granted. However, Charity (or love as the NIV puts it) does not necessarily mean to put 100% trust in someone. I love my husband with all my heart, and yes, I trust him - however, do I trust him as I do God? Certainly not. Does that mean I do not love him...certainly not.

When the trust you put forth into an individual exceeds the trust you place in God - it is sin. So would I trust a theologin or speaker 100% - no. Especially when what they teach, seems to me, to be lacking in truth. Yes, there is falsehoods everywhere, not just WOF, thus I trust not them, but my God.

I was only commenting on the response that we should trust WoF leaders. I was simply stating that, No, we need not trust them, but God.

SavedByGrace3 · Nov 8, 2003

HopeTheyDance said:
I was only commenting on the response that we should trust WoF leaders. I was simply stating that, No, we need not trust them, but God.

Agreed...
But lets not limit that concept to WOF leaders, as if they are the only ones we need not trust... lets be fair and include all leaders, teachers, prophets... whoever.

Grace_Alone4gives · Nov 8, 2003

didaskalos said:
Agreed...
But lets not limit that concept to WOF leaders, as if they are the only ones we need not trust... lets be fair and include all leaders, teachers, prophets... whoever.

And I did just that.

jbarcher · Nov 8, 2003

Thanks victoryword for that. Eech...we need more people like that...(what victoryword did)

Blade · Nov 8, 2003

What? You mean he's not perfect? Wow I guess he is just like YOU and ME.

Your words "Implication" you put that in. Did you see this? Or just take if from a web site?

Did you know God repented? Exodus 32:14 lets start at 13: Now Moses was talking to GOD here and reminding him of HIS words. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac and Israel thy servents to whom thou swarest by thine own self and saidst unto them. "I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed and they shall inherit it for ever." 14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Why not say "hay lets all pray for them" I guess that would be to christ like.

victoryword · Nov 10, 2003

Wow, this thread is a very pleasant surprise. Thanks for all of the nice comments.

Azeotroper · Nov 10, 2003

Victory Word,

Kenneth Copeland comes on TV most mornings and I get to listen often. Just last week he said something about "you gotta have faith in ya faith". What does he mean there? I don't know of any scripture to back that up.

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