God, Satan & Job

[tihanama]

God had no doubt that Job was and would always be faithful to Him. I do not understand why God needed to prove it to Satan, whose intentions are nothing but evil. Not only once did Job taunt God about how Job would not stay faithful but he went back again and so God allowed Satan more power to torture Job just to show Satan he was wrong. My faith is not shaken by this, just my understanding of this whole scenario. God cannot be fooled, he cannot be tricked and I am pretty sure God does not have to prove a thing to Satan so what is this really all about? I guess it bothers me cuz of course I see this through human eyes and feelings and it is as if Satan is using some kind of psychology on God to get him to hurt his faithful child. There is the example of Enoch & Elijah being so righteous that they were taken up to heaven without seeing physical death. Why did Satan not challenge God about their faithfulness and why was Job not transported to heaven for his righteous faith in God? Just trying to understand (perhaps it is not possible to understand).

 

[disciple1938]

This is an excellent question and actually not that difficult to understand once looked at from the proper perspective. First of all you are correct in stating that God had no doubt that Job was and would always be faithful to Him. The issue is not Job's faith or loyalty, and is not about God proving to Satan Job's loyalty. When Satan rebelled it was by calling into question God's integrity and fairness as well as his love. Satan's point was that God's law was unfair and unjust. He argued that God was unrighteous because he demanded completely loyalty and had imposed the death penalty for sin..Of course God is not unrighteous and he knew how horrible the results of sin would be and that sin carried the seed of death in itself. His universe is held together by the forced of love, and sin is self serving and does not grow from love. Without love the whole creation would evntually crumble and fade away. In the beginning was the word...by it was everything made ...and that word is LOVE. In short, Satan had openly challenged God before all the hosts of heaven. He atually got a third of them to follow him. God could have destroyed Satan and not allowed sin to ever exist. But instead he chose to allow Sin to rule long enough to prove Satan a liar and that his (God's) way was right. This is a very short take, but the point of Job is that he allowed Satan to test Job before all the hosts of heaven to let them all see whether it was he or Satan who was wrong. He wanted the issue settled for once and for all. I hope I made my point clear. God Bless.

 

[childofdust]

Tihanama,

I do not understand why God needed to prove it to Satan

Job is not written to tell us about what god did or did not do in heaven. It is a story that is trying to grapple with the issue of theodicy (why bad things happen if god is in control). What happens in the scroll of Job is not about proving anything to the Accuser, it is about defending god to the readers of the text—to us.

My faith is not shaken by this

The scroll of Job is meant to be read by those whose faith is already shaken—not to be read by people in order to shake their faith.

God cannot be fooled, he cannot be tricked and I am pretty sure God does not have to prove a thing to Satan so what is this really all about?

The point of Job is not about God being fooled. It is about us being fooled because we don't get God.

it is as if Satan is using some kind of psychology on God to get him to hurt his faithful child.

You have the story backwards. It is GOD who directs the Accuser to Job. The Accuser just shows up. God instigates everything. The Accuser only responds.

There is the example of Enoch & Elijah being so righteous that they were taken up to heaven without seeing physical death. Why did Satan not challenge God about their faithfulness and why was Job not transported to heaven for his righteous faith in God?

Because the story has nothing to do with some guy named Job. It has to do with you and me and the reality we face in the world around us: suffering, pain, injustice, a silent god, and, sometimes, an answer that appears to be: god is doing to this thing to you. And that reality and that answer don't make sense. For this reason, Job was written.

 

[tihanama]

These replies help me to see things in another light. I appreciate the response. I understand a bit better yet at the same time still feel like so much is over my head. Perhaps it is because the hour is late here. I will be back to reread what is written here and to contemplate further. If anyone else wants to comment on my original post I welcome your thoughts. God be with you all.

 

[Purge187]

God wanted to include someone in His Word that personified true, cast-iron faith, and Job was that man.

One of the lessons of the Book of Job is that there's really no excuse to ever forfeit our faith. Job's case was a worse-than-worst case scenario, and if his trials didn't cause him to throw in the towel like his wife wanted him to, then the troubles we face shouldn't cause us to do it either.

And aside from that, as Disciple said above, Satan was issuing a challenge to God before the angels. Satan wound up with a lot of egg on his face when it was over. Whenever we face troubles in life, we have the same opportunity to make the enemy look like a fool.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Speaks of enduring, and points us to Job in the very area of patience

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Which is also interesting that it speaks of tribulation (being that very thing) which worketh patience

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience

Even as Satan seems to be putting Job to the test, sifting him through a variety of hardships, we also see Jesus being aware of Satan's desire toward Simon too

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Whereas our Lord prayed for his faith fail him not

James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Whereas Peter said likewise

1Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

As Job said,


Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

Theres so many connections through various examples found in scripture that show much the same thing (in various ways)

The scripture being an encouragement for any of us enduring hardship, tribulation, or temptations, which for a season might come to us. These being examples for us.

 

[tihanama]

Helpful responses, thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom and thoughts.

 

[Bobinator]

It has always been God's purpose to create a perfect people to engage in perfect fellowship. God wasn't taunting Satan. He was trying to per-fect Job. As Job was already as perfect as he could be without seeing God as He really is.

As evident in the Book of Job, Satan works for God and serves His purpose of providing us an adversary for the purpose of perfecting us, and as an executioner of God's judgement against sin.

Matt.13:44- "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field."

Isaiah 54:16- "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."

 

[tihanama]

Your examples are interesting. Thanks.

 

[x141]

Things in Job, like in the whole of the book are pictures of things, just as Jesus, who was the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, or that his face was marred more than any many, not because it was beaten to a pulp, but because it was the face of God which is personified by Jesus' soul which is the life that he gave.

All these things relate to the process of a Son being revealed in us. The Father reveals the Son and then the Son reveals the Father. There is no measure to these things, other than the measure we bring to them with our soul.

 

[he-man]

The issue is not Job's faith or loyalty, and is not about God proving to Satan Job's loyalty. When Satan rebelled it was by calling into question God's integrity and fairness as well as his love. Satan's point was that God's law was unfair and unjust. Satan had openly challenged God before all the hosts of heaven. God Bless.

The whole purpose of the parable of Job, is to prepare you for the day of the Lord's coming. The expectation of most people is obstructed by God because they have sinned against the LORD, and how did they sin?

Mic 3:11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his zealousness: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Job openly says it was not a devil who tested him:
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

You see, it is God who rulest thou over all the kingdoms of men and chastizes, not some superstitious being.

Job 27: 13 This is the portion of a wicked man with God, and the heritage of oppressors,which they shall receive of the Almighty.
22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

2Ch 20:6 And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?

Ezr 8:22 For I was ashamed to require of the king a band of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way: because we had spoken unto the king, saying, The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him.

 

[singpeace]

God wanted to include someone in His Word that personified true, cast-iron faith, and Job was that man.

One of the lessons of the Book of Job is that there's really no excuse to ever forfeit our faith. Job's case was a worse-than-worst case scenario, and if his trials didn't cause him to throw in the towel like his wife wanted him to, then the troubles we face shouldn't cause us to do it either.

And aside from that, as Disciple said above, Satan was issuing a challenge to God before the angels. Satan wound up with a lot of egg on his face when it was over. Whenever we face troubles in life, we have the same opportunity to make the enemy look like a fool.

Excellent Excellent response! I agree 100%!

 

[he-man]

Excellent Excellent response! I agree 100%!

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament. [If it is to be found at all]—Smith's Bible Dictionary; --Nelson's Electronic Dictionary

In 1737 Sykes published ‘An enquiry into the meaning of demoniacks in the New Testament’ going further than Joseph Mede’s exposition of the ‘Doctrine of Demons’ by rejecting any belief in the existence of demons and regarding those possessed as simply suffering from mental illness, as the later work of Dr. Richard Mead. He also rejected the devil as a supernatural evil being, taking the allegory argument of John Epps.

He taught that Hell is the grave, not the place of torment of mainstream Christianity. The most infamous of Epps' unorthodox views regards the devil (1842), though he was one of a long line of Dissenters to take this view stretching back through Simpson (1804), Lardner (1742), Sykes (1737), going back to the Dutch Anabaptist David Joris (1540).

According to Epps, references in the Bible to the devil and Satan are, in the main, to be understood as personifications of the lustful principle in man and at the Dock Head Church to demonstrate that the devil is not a personal being.
Devil in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If there were such an opponent and foe of G-d (Satan) as some say Christianity claims, don't you think G-d is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If G-d spoke him (Satan) into existence; G-d could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962

The notion of an angel having free will is alien to Judaism. Free will requires the tension created by being a soul dwelling in a body. People can have free will, angels can't.

Polytheism is a belief in more than one god, pagan The idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic—you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.The notion of an angel having free will is alien to Judaism. Free will requires the tension created by being a soul dwelling in a body. People can have free will, angels can't.

Indo-Iranian [Persian] religions: from 1500 BC
The Indo-Iranian tribes, who come down to the Iranian plateau and move into India between 1500 and 1000 BC, share a polytheistic religion. But among the many gods clamouring for human affection or fear, particular attention is paid by the Indo-Iranians to a small group.

These special gods are known as ahuras (meaning 'lords') in the Iranian region and as devas among the Aryans in India. In Iran, under the influence of Zoroaster. RAKEFET

The problem can be illustrated from the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament. The Greek word for "God," theos, in the pagan, polytheistic Greek context, meant one of the "gods" of the Greek pantheon.
James Barr's book The Semantics of Biblical Language

Act 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. (POLYTHEISM]

 

[Clare73]

God had no doubt that Job was and would always be faithful to Him. I do not understand why God needed to prove it to Satan, whose intentions are nothing but evil. Not only once did Job taunt God about how Job would not stay faithful but he went back again and so God allowed Satan more power to torture Job just to show Satan he was wrong. My faith is not shaken by this, just my understanding of this whole scenario. God cannot be fooled, he cannot be tricked and I am pretty sure God does not have to prove a thing to Satan so what is this really all about? I guess it bothers me cuz of course I see this through human eyes and feelings and it is as if Satan is using some kind of psychology on God to get him to hurt his faithful child. There is the example of Enoch & Elijah being so righteous that they were taken up to heaven without seeing physical death. Why did Satan not challenge God about their faithfulness and why was Job not transported to heaven for his righteous faith in God? Just trying to understand (perhaps it is not possible to understand).

1) Well, let's start with what Job shows us about Christ, who also was

• the Righteous One (Ac 7:52, 3:14)
• sorely afflicted by God (Isa 53:3-5)
• because of a controversy with Satan (Ge 3:15; Jn 12:31; Mt 12:29; Lk 10:18-19)
• who was emptied and humbled (Php 2:5-8)
• for his greater glory (Heb 12:2; Php 2:9-11; 2Co 4:17)
• and exalted to intercede for his friends (Ac 2:33; Heb 7:25, cf Job 45:7-10).

So the story of Job would have been most instructive in preparing Jesus for his life.

2) Then, let's look at how much it benefited Job.

While Job did not sin in what he said (Job 2:10), because he did not curse God (1:11, 2:5), he did:

• feel he had a right to an explanation, which God owed him (Job 9:16, 10:2, 13:3, 22-23)--presumption, and
• complain because God afflicted the righteous but not the wicked (24:12)--discrediting God's justice.

God responded to Job:

charging him with

• ignorance (chps 38-39),
• casting shadows of ignorance over his wisdom (38:2), and
• discrediting his justice (40:8) in order to justify himself to his friends (6:29, 13:12-19), who were using his affliction as proof of his unrighteousness (22:4-30, 34:10-12, 31-37, 35:12-16, 36:8-17), and

challenging him (40:7-8) to match God in

• justice (40:8),
• power (40:9),
• majesty (40:10) and
• dominion (40:11-14).

This is also most instructive, for we see that:
We do not question God (Ro 9:20), he questions us (Job 38:3, 40:7).
We do not judge God (Isa 10:15), he judges us (Job 40:2).
Nor do we call God to the bar of our reason (Ro 9:20; Isa 45:11-12) to judge him based on human understanding and human ways (Job 1:22).

The Bible calls that "turning things upside down as if the potter were though to be like the clay." (Isa 29:16, NIV)

Job is humbled (42:3), repents (42:6) and embraces the sovereign actions of God (40:2, 5), although
Job is never given an explanation for his affliction, for things happen on earth for reasons in heaven we know nothing about.
Job no longer needed an explanation (42:3), for he had experienced the glory of God (42:5, cf 19:26-27), which far surpasses anything else on earth (Php 3:8, 10).

So the outcome of Job's trial was:

• deeper heart knowledge, and realized fellowship with God (42:3, 5, 8, cf 19:26-27; Ps 42:1-2, 63:1, 84:1-2),
• double possessions (42:10)--foreshadowing spiritual possessions (Heb 10:34; 1Pe 1:4-5),
• long life (42:16)--foreshadowing eternal life (Jas 1:12).

God's answer to man's objection regarding his absolute sovereignty as displayed in the life of Job:

I am all-wise and all-just (Isa 40:13-14; Ps 89:14),
I do what is best and what is right (Dt 32:4; Ps 119:68; Da 4:37).
TRUST ME, and lean not on your own understanding (Pr 3:5).

Conclusion of the matter:

The sovereignty of God requires our trust, not our understanding (Ro 11:33).

 

[tihanama]

This is interesting and I thank you for going to all this work for me and others who need help understanding the book of Job.