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usexpat97

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We have this idea that a miracle happens magically, as opposed to naturally. And we get our idea of magic from watching magicians as kids and watching Lord of the Rings. Yet God created nature. If He speaks and something happens, that does not contradict natural law. That by definition IS natural law. Jesus spoke, and the storm calmed down. That was a natural event--AND Jesus spoke, and it happened. Jesus told the disciples where to find the coin to pay the temple tax in a fish. The coin got there by a sequence of natural events--AND Jesus miraculously knew where to find it. It happened literally.
 
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public hermit

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This is a Glory that we will ponder on forever in eternity. Those terms and the term 'mouth' will never fully describe the source Glory of the Word of God, but the term is adequate for our understanding

Okay, this makes sense. To say "mouth" in this context is short of a full description but adequate for understanding is to say it's figurative. Would you agree?
 
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royal priest

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Hi Carl
I would make an existential distinction between the second person of the Trinity and Jesus. The Son of God is eternal, but the man, Jesus, was conceived in Mary's womb.
 
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Charlie24

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God is a spirit and can become flesh anytime He desires.

How you define literal concerning the difference between spirit and flesh is debatable.
 
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public hermit

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How you define literal concerning the difference between spirit and flesh is debatable

I hadn't considered this. Interesting thought. I'll have to sit with this one for a bit. Thank you.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Is God a physical being, then?

There it is again - applying the word physical to God is a nonsense.

How He exists is a glorious mystery - Jesus in His resurrected body ate with the disciples, they touched Him yet walked through walls.

His mode of existence is well beyond our comprehension.

Applying 'logic' to God is like trying to shovel air into a bucket. Logic is the wrong tool, faith is.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Okay, this makes sense. To say "mouth" in this context is short of a full description but adequate for understanding is to say it's figurative. Would you agree?

NO because figurative suggests Jesus doesn't have a mouth which He certainly does.
 
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public hermit

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His mode of existence is well beyond our comprehension.

Hey, I'm in complete agreement with this. But, if this is true, then it doesn't make sense to say that God literally spoke and it came into being, any more than it makes sense to say God has a right hand by which the Son sits. If God's mode of being transcends our understanding then we should take these kinds of statements figuratively, correct?
 
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Carl Emerson

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No... because this dismisses the physical aspect of God - an aspect among others we don't fully understand, that He certainly has.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Hi Carl
I would make an existential distinction between the second person of the Trinity and Jesus. The Son of God is eternal, but the man, Jesus, was conceived in Mary's womb.

The two are one... I don't agree with dividing the Godhead.
 
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LaSorcia

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Just because God didn't speak in the incredibly small way that humans speak doesn't mean that God didn't literally speak in the way that God is able to speak. Think of God speaking as the Socratic ideal compared to how humans speak. That probably still doesn't cover it, but allows for a literal translation.
Ask the Orthodox.
 
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Rachel20

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I kind of like this approach, with a little tweaking. Someone mentioned Maimonides who I had heard concluded there were 10 dimensions based on a study of the "God said 'let there be ..." verses. We just can't perceive them all. So when you say the natural laws, you could include those requiring more dimensions those we perceive. I saw a post on tesseracts that said just an additional 4th spatial dimension could allow matter to exist in the same space. Makes sense in the same way a 3rd spatial dimension allows triangles to have more than 180 degrees (magic in flatlander land!!). Jesus did marvel at the centurion in Matthew 8:10, who seemed to have insight into what goes on in the greater realms.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Romans 4:17 seems to agree with God said be taken literally.

In Genesis God said light and there was light.

So this would lend to the understanding that "God said and it was so"
 
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public hermit

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NO because figurative suggests Jesus doesn't have a mouth which He certainly does.

The 2nd person has a mouth post incarnation. Or, do you want to say the incarnation is eternal?
 
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public hermit

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St_Worm2

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Is God a physical being, then?
Hello Public Hermit, the Father is "spirit", as is the Holy Ghost, as are the angels, and yet,

Luke 2
8 There were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace,
Good will toward men.
15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven,
the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Beth-lehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.

Can the angels (who are spirits) do what God cannot? Can we?

Rather than God needing to be a physical Being, with a mouth, tongue and vocal chords to speak, I believe that He fashioned those things for us when He created us, to allow us to do so as well (speak that is, not call things into being ex nihillo ).

Of course, if He wanted those things (physical attributes), He could have them, as people have already mentioned in this thread (as He certainly took many different physical forms in the OT and often spoke to us, Moses, the Prophets, and many others when He did, yes)?

Exodus 3
1 Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.
3 So Moses said, “I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”
6 He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
The member of the Godhead who walked among us as a man and died on the Cross to save us from our sins is the very same One who created the universe (spoke it and everything in it into existence) and Who, since the Creation, has held it all together as well .. e.g. John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17. We have no way of imagining all that God is and is capable of (on this side of the grave), but perhaps it is best to not imagine Him as less than we know that He is, or that He is somehow limited in all of the ways that we are, yes?

God bless you!

--David

Acts of the Apostles 13
1 There were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

.
 
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public hermit

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Rather than God needing to be a physical Being, with a mouth, tongue and vocal chords to speak, I believe that He fashioned those things for us when He created us to allow us to do so as well (speak that is, not call things into being ex nihillo )

You make some good points. Would you say that God spoke, just not exactly in the way or by the same means as us? In other words, it is figurative, but no less true?
 
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public hermit

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I have some sympathy with looking at it this way. God's literal is not like our literal, but they are analogously related, perhaps? I would say this still supports taking the language as figurative. So, yes, God "spoke" it into existence but not by pushing air through God's mouth which formed sounds. God's "speaking" is God willing, pace Maimonides, but it's analogous to how a powerful human commands something to be done and it happens.
 
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Tigger45

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IMHO God can speak without needing any physical means. My next thought is did he create sound waves doing so? I would reply with a yes.
 
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