God Proven to Exist According to Mainstream Physics

James Redford · Dec 20, 2012

CabVet said:
Oh great, no need for faith anymore. Bible? Who needs that if there is "proof" of God?

This is already addressed in my article "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", pp. 62-63:

[Begin quote:]

Nor does the fact that God has been proven to exist according to the known laws of physics leave no room for faith. Recall that Jesus Christ defined Himself as the truth (see John 14:6). Hence, truth, particularly scientific truth, confirms the existence of God and Yeshua HaMashiach as the Second Person of the Trinity.

The word used in the New Testament for faith is pistis (pÐstij), which means persuasion, as in persuaded by the evidence. It further carries the meaning of a ground of belief, a guarantee, an assurance. Faith in the Christian sense is trust in the truth, even when things seem hopeless. It does not mean a lack of rationality in coming to belief in Jesus Christ. Indeed, Paul appealed to reason when he wrote in Romans 1:19,20 that an understanding of the natural world leads to knowledge of God:^160

""
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, . . .
""

After all, some form of reason must be used in order for a person to convert in belief from one religion to another; or from any belief to another belief, for that matter. It can either be veridical reason, or false reason--but some process of reasoning must be involved.

Having faith in God is having trust in the truth, since the Godhead in all Its fullness is the highest obtainment of truth: said state is the infinite perfection of all knowledge. As Paul wrote, If God be for us, who can be against us?^161

-----

Footnotes:

^160 New King James Version.
^161 Romans 8:31, King James Version.

James Redford · Dec 20, 2012

Just to let everyone here know, the links in my originating post for this thread have been updated so as to replace dead links with working links.

Jamin4422 · Dec 20, 2012

Loudmouth said:
Using the same argument we would conclude that thunderclouds really are Thor,

Them guys had some pretty good public relations back then.

Strathos · Dec 20, 2012

James Redford said:
Actually, it does precisely that, because the Omega Point has all the unique properties (i.e., haecceities) claimed for God in the traditional religions. Thus, by definition the Omega Point is God. My above-cited article goes into the details of this.

This is not the God I worship. Jesus is not an "Omega Point".

DennisTate · Dec 22, 2012

Tiberius said:
String theory says Humans are the best life form in the universe?

Uh, okay...

Well, best is a relative rather than absolute term?!

In one sense we are the lowest energy major life form....but God's attention is on us at a level that would astonish us because I believe God sees humanity as a way to bring angels to humility and salvation that got off into another pattern of thought....pride?!

Investing a huge amount of effort over infinite time in the past would tend to make one emotionally connected to the created beings...us humans!

https://www.facebook.com/notes/fans...otional-being-in-the-universe/379956208748564

Could God the Father be the most emotional being in the universe?

Pastor Rick Joyner:
When My Father moves His little finger, the whole universe trembles. To shake the nations with words does not impress anyone who dwells here. But when even the least of My brethren on earth shows love, it brings joy to My Fathers heart. When even the most humble church sings to My Father with true love in their hearts, He silences all of heaven to listen to them. He knows that one cannot help but to worship when they are beholding His glory here, but when those who are living in such darkness and difficulty sing with true hearts to Him, it touches Him more than all of the myriads of heaven can.

Many times, the broken notes from earth caused all of heaven to weep with joy as they beheld My Father being touched. A few holy ones struggling to express their adoration for Him has many times caused Him to weep. Every time I see My brethren touch Him with true worship, it makes the pain and grief I knew on the cross seem like a small price to pay. Nothing brings Me more joy than when you worship My Father. I went to the cross so that you could worship Him through Me. It is in this worship that you, the Father and I are all one.

tonybeer · Dec 22, 2012

The title of this thread is "Mainstream physics", yet it is in no way mainstream physics. Nature (for those that don't know one of the most respected scientific journals) reviewed Tiplers ideas from his 1994 book on the Omega Point as "a masterpiece of pseudoscience ... the product of a fertile and creative imagination unhampered by the normal constraints of scientific and philosophical discipline"

To state it as science is nonsense.

RickG · Dec 22, 2012

James Redford said:
God has been proven to exist based upon the most reserved view of the known laws of physics. For much more on that, see my below article, which details physicist and mathematician Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point cosmology and the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE) correctly describing and unifying all the forces in physics. The Omega Point cosmology demonstrates that the known laws of physics (viz., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics) require that the universe end in the Omega Point: the final cosmological singularity and state of infinite informational capacity having all the unique properties traditionally claimed for God, and of which is a different aspect of the Big Bang initial singularity, i.e., the first cause.

James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Sept. 10, 2012 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2011), 186 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708; PDF, 1741424 bytes, MD5: 8f7b21ee1e236fc2fbb22b4ee4bbd4cb. The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything by James Redford :: SSRN , The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything : James Redford : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive , http://theophysics.host56.com/Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf , WebCite query result , FlashMirrors - Download Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf , DepositFiles , Free File Hosting & Video Downloads, Free File Sharing, Online Friends Network - Ziddu , Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf download - 2shared , Download Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf - BitShare.com - Free File Hosting and Cloud Storage , Download Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf from Sendspace.com - send big files the easy way

/snip......

When one claims scientific proof, one publishes their research in a relevant scientific journal. All I see is social science publications and ICR. That is far short of main stream physics.

DennisTate · Dec 22, 2012

tonybeer said:
The title of this thread is "Mainstream physics", yet it is in no way mainstream physics. Nature (for those that don't know one of the most respected scientific journals) reviewed Tiplers ideas from his 1994 book on the Omega Point as "a masterpiece of pseudoscience ... the product of a fertile and creative imagination unhampered by the normal constraints of scientific and philosophical discipline"

To state it as science is nonsense.

Thank you for this well thought out post TonyBeer!

So obviously you disagree with Dr. Stephen Hawking in what he wrote in Stephen Hawking's Universe, chapter entled The Anthropic Principle, that perhaps there has been an infinite number of Big Bang events occurring over infinite time in the past?!

TonyBeer, do you know of any way to disprove the Cyclic Model of the Universe?

DennisTate · Dec 22, 2012

RickG said:
When one claims scientific proof, one publishes their research in a relevant scientific journal. All I see is social science publications and ICR. That is far short of main stream physics.

True....but if you branch out your research from the concepts expressed in this website you will run into ideas that are accepted by the greatest minds of our time.

Then again, a 200 IQ level genius only occurs naturally about once in a population of 100 million people, so true......discussion of the almost obvious implications of The Anthropic Principle, The Cyclic Model, String Theory and the Law of Probability can only be conducted at a certain level within a relatively small segment of the most well informed scientists!

Science - near-death experiences

Beechwell · Dec 22, 2012

If I remember correctly, the gist of Tipler's argument is the following: Thermodynamic entropy must always inrease over time. And in computer compexity theory there also exists a quantity called entrpy, measuring the amount of information contained in a signal. Both entropies have the same formula, so accoring to some physicists they must be equavalent, and thus the information within the universe must always increase- Until finally the Big Crunsh happens,when the whole universe will collapse into a single singularity, which must still contain all the information of the whole universe.
Now with this information all life can now be computed again by the singularity, and ressurected as some form of perfect simulation of the original life forms. These replica will live for an infinite time, since with the collapse into the final singularity time will slow down to a halt (due to the graviational force), which will be percieved by those within the singularity as time becoming infinite (this at least is correct within the framwork of general relativity).
This, according to Tipler is the Christian ressurection of the dead, and the final singularity is God.

I probably got the details wrong, but I think that this is the general idea.

Apart from the questionable assumptions about equation information entropy with thermodynamic entropy, the necessity of a Big Crunch (while most cosmologists today seem to favor an endless expansion of the universe or an eventual stop of all expansion in a perfect equlibrium), Tipler also postulates that life must exist eternally (why I don't know, apparently some special kind of strong antrophic principle).
This necessarily eternal life will - according to Tipler - populate the whole cosmos, starting from earth, and by the time of the Big Crunsh have infiltrated every part of the universe. This is apparently necessary for Tiplers resurection computer to happen because life has to stear the collapse precisely for the desired result (don't ask me how that makes sense).

All this is certainly more (admittedly well thought out) speculation than anything resembling proof. And still the only aspects this Omega Point God shares with the Christian God are the supposed resurrection event (provided life manages to steer the universe correctly?), the omnipotency and omnicience of the Omega Point (which cotains all the information of the universe and - through the effords of the late lifeforms - can also control all of it), and some kind of trinity. The latter has something to do with the Omega Point at the end of time (3) being essentially the same (as far as information goes) as the universe at the beginning (1) and in between (2), this revealing three aspects of the whole deity (Tipler's argument is certainly more developed and coherent than my attempts at explaining it). However Tiplers trinity fits better with the Hindu trinity of Brahma (beginning), Vishnu (intermediate universe) and Shiva (Omega Point). Also I'm missing the rather important Christian aspect of Hell from this Omega Point God, or any concept of morality.

So all in all I think that neither does the Omega Point theory make much sense, nor can it even provide proof for its assertions, and finally the resemblance to the Christian God is merely superficial.

DennisTate · Dec 22, 2012

Beechwell said:
If I remember correctly, the gist of Tipler's argument is the following: Thermodynamic entropy must always inrease over time. And in computer compexity theory there also exists a quantity called entrpy, measuring the amount of information contained in a signal. Both entropies have the same formula, so accoring to some physicists they must be equavalent, and thus the information within the universe must always increase- Until finally the Big Crunsh happens,when the whole universe will collapse into a single singularity, which must still contain all the information of the whole universe.
Now with this information all life can now be computed again by the singularity, and ressurected as some form of perfect simulation of the original life forms. These replica will live for an infinite time, since with the collapse into the final singularity time will slow down to a halt (due to the graviational force), which will be percieved by those within the singularity as time becoming infinite (this at least is correct within the framwork of general relativity).
This, according to Tipler is the Christian ressurection of the dead, and the final singularity is God.

I probably got the details wrong, but I think that this is the general idea.

Apart from the questionable assumptions about equation information entropy with thermodynamic entropy, the necessity of a Big Crunch (while most cosmologists today seem to favor an endless expansion of the universe or an eventual stop of all expansion in a perfect equlibrium), Tipler also postulates that life must exist eternally (why I don't know, apparently some special kind of strong antrophic principle).
This necessarily eternal life will - according to Tipler - populate the whole cosmos, starting from earth, and by the time of the Big Crunsh have infiltrated every part of the universe. This is apparently necessary for Tiplers resurection computer to happen because life has to stear the collapse precisely for the desired result (don't ask me how that makes sense).

All this is certainly more (admittedly well thought out) speculation than anything resembling proof. And still the only aspects this Omega Point God shares with the Christian God are the supposed resurrection event (provided life manages to steer the universe correctly?), the omnipotency and omnicience of the Omega Point (which cotains all the information of the universe and - through the effords of the late lifeforms - can also control all of it), and some kind of trinity. The latter has something to do with the Omega Point at the end of time (3) being essentially the same (as far as information goes) as the universe at the beginning (1) and in between (2), this revealing three aspects of the whole deity (Tipler's argument is certainly more developed and coherent than my attempts at explaining it). However Tiplers trinity fits better with the Hindu trinity of Brahma (beginning), Vishnu (intermediate universe) and Shiva (Omega Point). Also I'm missing the rather important Christian aspect of Hell from this Omega Point God, or any concept of morality.

So all in all I think that neither does the Omega Point theory make much sense, nor can it even provide proof for its assertions, and finally the resemblance to the Christian God is merely superficial.

Awesome response to this topic Sir!!!!

What do you personally think of the explanation Mr. Mellen Benedict gave of the Cyclic Model after his near death experience?

Mellen-Thomas Benedict - near-death experiences
5. The Void

When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That's a mind-expanding thought, isn't it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event which created the universe. I saw that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by supercomputers using fractal geometry equations.

Illuminaughty · Dec 22, 2012

I like this vid better. The Omega Point was already reached a long time ago and we are all simulations on a computer hard drive:
The Omega Simulation - YouTube

Beechwell · Dec 23, 2012

DennisTate said:
Awesome response to this topic Sir!!!!

What do you personally think of the explanation Mr. Mellen Benedict gave of the Cyclic Model after his near death experience?

Mellen-Thomas Benedict - near-death experiences
5. The Void

Generally I don't put much stock into relevations received during near-death experiences.
I noticed though, that Mr Benedict said something about simultaneous Big Bamgs. That sounds more like the idea that the early expanding universe "split up" into closed regions due to increased cosmic inflation. Each region then constitutes an individual "universe" which exist independently and simultaneously.

someguy14 · Dec 23, 2012

CabVet said:
Oh great, no need for faith anymore. Bible? Who needs that if there is "proof" of God?

Faith in God, is, proof in God.

pgp_protector · Dec 23, 2012

someguy14 said:
Faith in God, is, proof in God.

So if people that have faith in xyz, that is proof of xyz?

Strathos · Dec 23, 2012

It is proof to that person alone.

tonybeer · Dec 23, 2012

DennisTate said:
Thank you for this well thought out post TonyBeer!

So obviously you disagree with Dr. Stephen Hawking in what he wrote in Stephen Hawking's Universe, chapter entled The Anthropic Principle, that perhaps there has been an infinite number of Big Bang events occurring over infinite time in the past?!

TonyBeer, do you know of any way to disprove the Cyclic Model of the Universe?

No, I totally agree that could be the case. I don't think you could disprove the Cyclic model, however you could perhaps (but by no means certainly) prove it. None of this is within our current grasp however as far as I'm aware.

I'm not sure quite what that has to do with the Tipler argument though. Tipler seems to be making assertions about the similarities between information theory and thermodynamic entropy and applying them to cosmology. Just because the mathematics is similar doesn't mean that the same rules about entropy increasing are the same in both.

I have a degree and masters in physics from a very well regarded university, so although I wouldn't want to comment on the latest peer reviewed science, I did study both information theory and cosmology so have some grasp of the physics!

ps What is proof in God? Is that the same as proof of God? I'd have thought that a definition of Faith is belief without proof (I've just checked and this is the definition, at least in regards to what the discussion is about).

DennisTate · Dec 23, 2012

Illuminaughty said:
I like this vid better. The Omega Point was already reached a long time ago and we are all simulations on a computer hard drive:
The Omega Simulation - YouTube

Actually Illuminaughty.....you could be onto an idea with far more importance and relevance than we may tend to imagine at first. In a sense after planning and choreographing an infinite number of Big Bang events over infinite time in the past.....I have reason to believe that God the Creator has gotten into the production of reality films with eternal psychological value.

The Hordes of Hell are Marching
Pastor Rick Joyner:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Grace and Truth[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I turned away from the door and retreated fast. There was a beautiful red stone nearby, which I almost lunged at to lay my hands on it. Immediately I was in the Garden of Gethsemane beholding the Lord in prayer. The agony I beheld was even more terrible than the door I had just seen. Shocked, I jerked my hand away from the stone and fell to the floor in exhaustion. I badly wanted to return to the blue or green stones, but I had to regather my energy and sense of direction. The angels were quickly all around me serving me. I was given a drink that began to revive me. Soon I was feeling well enough to stand and begin walking back to the other stones. However, the recurring vision of the Lord praying compelled me to stop.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"What was that back there?" I asked. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"When you touch the stones we are able to see a little of what you see, and feel a little of what you feel," said the angel. "We know that all of these stones are great treasures, and all of the revelations they contain are priceless. We beheld for a moment the agony of the Lord before His crucifixion, and we felt briefly what He felt that terrible night. It is hard for us to understand how are God could ever suffer like that. It makes us appreciate much more what an honor it is to serve you whom He did it for." [/FONT]

Click to expand...

.....

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Now I must go back to the red stone. I know now that is the greatest treasure in this room, and I must not leave until I am carrying that treasure in my heart," I said with more resolution in my words than I felt in my heart at that time, but I nevertheless knew that it was true." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Truth of Grace[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The time that I spent at the red stone was the most painful that I have ever experienced. Many times I simply could not take any more but had to withdraw my hand. Several times I went back to the blue or green stones to rejuvenate my soul before I returned. I was extremely hard to return to the red stone each time, but my love and appreciation for the Lord was growing through this more than anything I had ever learned or experienced. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Finally, when the presence of the Father departed from Jesus on the cross, I could not stand it anymore. I quit. I could tell that the angels, who were also experiencing what I was, were in full agreement. The willpower to touch the stone again simply was not in my anymore. I did not even feel like going back to the blue stone. I just laid on the floor weeping over what the Lord had gone through. I also wept because I knew that I had deserted Him just like His disciples. I failed Him when He needed me the most, just like they did. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After what seemed like several days, I opened my eyes. Another eagle was standing beside me. In front of him were three stones, one blue, one green, and one red. "Eat them," he said. When I did, my whole being was renewed, and both a great joy and great soberness flooded my soul. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When I stood up, I caught sight of the same three stones set into the handle of my sword, and then on each of my shoulders. "These are now yours forever," the eagle said. "They cannot be taken from you, and you cannot lose them." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"But I did not finish this last one," I protested. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Christ alone will ever finish that test," he replied. "You have done well, but you must no on now." [/FONT]

[/FONT]

DennisTate · Dec 24, 2012

tonybeer said:
No, I totally agree that could be the case. I don't think you could disprove the Cyclic model, however you could perhaps (but by no means certainly) prove it. None of this is within our current grasp however as far as I'm aware.

I'm not sure quite what that has to do with the Tipler argument though. Tipler seems to be making assertions about the similarities between information theory and thermodynamic entropy and applying them to cosmology. Just because the mathematics is similar doesn't mean that the same rules about entropy increasing are the same in both.

I have a degree and masters in physics from a very well regarded university, so although I wouldn't want to comment on the latest peer reviewed science, I did study both information theory and cosmology so have some grasp of the physics!

ps What is proof in God? Is that the same as proof of God? I'd have thought that a definition of Faith is belief without proof (I've just checked and this is the definition, at least in regards to what the discussion is about).

OK, so if some sort of fundamental energy in all probability existed essentially for eternity previous to the most recent Big Bang event that may well have been roughly 13.72 billion years ago....would not Tehillard's Law imply that fundamental energy would compile and form into more and more complex creations?

Law of Complexity/Consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

mzungu · Dec 24, 2012

Finally! Now I can sue Omega point for crimes against humanity, ecological disasters, and mass extinctions!

God Proven to Exist According to Mainstream Physics

Lux et veritas et libertas

Lux et veritas et libertas

Member

No one important

Newbie

Newbie

Senior Veteran

Newbie

Newbie

Glücksdrache

Newbie

Drift and Doubt

Glücksdrache

someguy14

Guest

Noted strange person

No one important

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

INVICTUS

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency