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God meant it for good?

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Theophilus7

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Hello folks,


This discussion thread is about "the problem of pain".

A great many Christians suffer from a great many things. The question I'd like to put to you (and I have my own opinions :)) is this: Is there good suffering and bad suffering? That is, can we discern between a legitimate, sanctifying experience that is according to God's will which God intends for our good, and an attack of the devil that has nothing to do with God's desire for our lives? Do you believe the difference can be established on specific, objective grounds, or is it down to the individual to subjectively "discern" His circumstances for Himself? Then again, do you question whether there is in fact a difference, believing rather that a) suffering has nothing to do with God's plan for you or b) whatever you are suffering is God's will.

Well, what do you all think and why do you think that way? How is God involved in our suffering? Are there different categories of suffering, and does He relate to them in different ways? Let's hear your thoughts.


---

A Polite Request
A bit of a controversial topic, this one, but I hope we can all make a mature contribution, respecting the different points of view that others may have about it. :prayer:

1. Please think before you type and post, and if you are making replies to other people's posts, please post them under that person's post instead of dumping your replies on the end of the stack, so that sub-threads can develop properly. (Incase you didn't know, there's a "hybrid" option [top right] you can select to help you organise your viewing and replies. Also, use the 'Quote this post' button.)

2. Try to keep the different concepts clear. Don't muddle together suffering because of specific sin and suffering for the sake of sanctification, for example, unless you really believe they are one and the same. Use language carefully so that we don't misunderstand you.

3. I'd appreciate it if people avoided giving personal testimonies of their sufferings :sorry: - not because they haven't any value, but because it's difficult to discuss the issue objectively when people become personally and emotionally involved in the debate.

Thanks,

Theophilus7
 

SavedByGrace3

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If you are squeamish or have a tenderness in your soul about the loss of a loved one or the suffering of a child... I might suggest you not read this. I believe it to be true. But sometimes we are not ready for truth. If you begin to read and find it painful, please stop and pray about it.

This discussion thread is about "the problem of pain". A great many Christians suffer from a great many things. The question I'd like to put to you (and I have my own opinions ) is this: Is there good suffering and bad suffering?
All suffering is bad. The question is really a moot because if an experience were pleasant then we would not even consider calling it suffering. An ice cream cone is not suffering. A warm bed on a cold night is not suffering.
Suffering can be defined in itself and by the common understanding of all men. Those in a cancer ward are suffering. Your child dying in your arms is suffering. There are no redeeming virtues in these events. The cross of Christ is the ultimate definition of suffering in this life.
An event cannot be redefined as non-suffering because it lead to a good or positive outcome. We cannot say that the pain and agony that Jesus endured on the cross was not suffering because it lead to the redemption of the world. He suffered horribly. The ends do not allow us redefine the means as something other than what it was. It was suffering regardless of the good end it lead to.
Suffering is bad. Non-suffering is good. We Cannot define suffering without defining what is good. Is our "good" the same as God's "good"? Does the fact that God is infinitely wiser than we somehow allow Him to redefine "good"? Can He decide that hell is good and those there are not suffering. Are there instances where God sees cancer on a child as a good thing? Is the "good" of God the same as our "good"? The answer to this question can only be yes. I cannot count the times I have heard and read Isaiah 55:8-9 used to say that God will allow and even commit evil in our lives:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


They imagine that God's higher ways and thoughts are worse than our ways and worse than our thoughts. If they would read on they would see the truth:

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.


God's higher ways are better ways, and His thoughts are better... not worse. What is good to us is the same as what is good to God. He does not have a different standard that says evil and suffering are good.

James 1:17 BBE
17 Every good and true thing is given to us from heaven, coming from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change or any shade made by turning.


God is unchanging. His is not good today to one, and then causing suffering tomorrow to another. He is light. It is not conceivable that a cancer or a death would issue forth from throne of God, the Father of Lights.


Matthew 7:9-12 KJV
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.


These simple words reveal to us that what is good for us is good for God. These words are meaningless if somehow suffering is good. What we desire to have done to us is good, and we are to do the same to our neighbor. Goodness is not transcendent. It is fundamental and real.

When Jesus calls us to this standard:

Matthew 5:48 KJV
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


The perfection of God in heaven can only be what we understand to be "good".
Else we serve a monster God and are indeed beyond hope.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Can we discern between a legitimate, sanctifying experience that God intends for our good, and an attack of the devil that has nothing to do with God's desire for our lives?
I question the premise of this statement:
"...legitimate, sanctifying experience that God intends for our good..."
A suffering experience is never good, never from God, and is never the deciding element that leads to sanctification. I discussed the definition of good, suffering, and the relationship between these terms in the previous post.
I would like to expand on the new issue.
What effects change in our spiritual lives... whether that change is sanctification, righteousness, the overcoming of the world, or any other function or characteristic that can be perfected in our spiritual lives.

Ultimately the work of Jesus Christ accomplished everything that was needed to effect every and all maturity in our spiritual lives. He accomplished our righteousness, our sanctification, our growth, our maturity, our holiness, our complete and utter redemption. There is nothing left to do. There is nothing that needs to be done to add to that work. Suffering on our part does not add one iota to any spiritual attribute, function, or characteristic in our lives. He has already done it all.

There are no spiritual blessings that have not been released to us:
Ephesians 1:3 KJV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

There is no promise that He is holding back. They are all yes and amen:
2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

He has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. There is nothing left to give!
2 Peter 1:3 KJV
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

So why do believers suffer? It is not because He is sitting in heaven holding things back! So what part does suffering play in these things?

The suffering in itself does not accomplish anything other than drive us to the place where we will call on the Lord in faith.

BUT: in the end... it is the faith in the Word and the work of Christ that accomplished every spiritual event in your life.
AND: you could have exercised that faith all along without the suffering.
The work has already been done, the words have been spoken, the blessings and promises fulfilled. The suffering we endure is a manifestation of the end of your own efforts to try and do what He has already done. When we give up trying to do what He has done, and throw ourselves on the finished work of Christ, we are on the path to experencing the full redemption He has for us.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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God's place in our suffering.

God created cliff A.
God created gravity B.
God created man C, and gave him weight.

Eventually there will be suffering. But you can hardly blame God...:wave:

If you drive a car outside the white lines... you will eventually learn that it is a bad idea via an accident or a ticket. But you could have driven within the white lines all along. The accident you had did not make you a better driver. Driving between the white lines did. You do not go before the judge and blame him or the police officer for the ticket, and say it was their will that you drive outside of the white lines so you learn to be a better driver. (I would advise againt that.)
 
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Theophilus7

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hobart schmedly said:
These simple words reveal to us that what is good for us is good for God.
Hmmm. A decidedly anthropocentric perspective...

No one questions whether or not suffering feels good. Of course it doesn't. If we are to discuss its value in terms such as these, we will get nowhere. What I should like us to do is get beyond the fact that suffering in the mind or the body registers unpleasant sensations in your brain cortex, and discuss its essential worth and divine approval in the progressive application of God's redemptive plan. You have already stated one good effect that suffering of any kind may produce: it may convince a man of His need for God. If a sickness could wake up a soul on the road to hell, would God be "bad" if he sent it? Thus we have one example of an instance of suffering that was, in a very real sense, "a good thing".

We cannot limit the good effects of suffering to non-believers. None of us are perfect yet (a goal which Paul denied he had attained). We cannot say that Christ was merely our substitute, as you are apparently suggesting. That is only half of the story. He is also our example. If He learned obedience through what He suffered, how much more His followers? And if God is actively involved in the course of our perfection, what might He do with us (or to us) in order to help us progress? That would be a good discussion. Or do you really believe He takes no active involvement in this process at all, happy to let whatever suffering we may happen to bump into accidentally along the way serve instead?

I am not trying to write a full response to your posts here, but I hope to stimulate others to reflect on this matter too. Forgive me for using your post as a springboard for more questions :)


Theophilus7
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Theophilus7 said:
. You have already stated one good effect that suffering of any kind may produce: it may convince a man of His need for God. If a sickness could wake up a soul on the road to hell, would God be "bad" if he sent it? Thus we have one example of an instance of suffering that was, in a very real sense, "a good thing".
I would have to say that something is not good or bad based on a resulting condition. It is good or bad based solely on it's own characteristics. Cancer is not in itself good. Death is not in itself a good thing. And in the example you gave, I cannot see where God would have to send anything to anyone. Sin has it's own corruption power and needs no help from God to reap hurt upon people.
My bottom line determining factor regarding what is good and what is bad is the life and ministry of Jesus. Did He ever put sickness or poverty on people in order to accomplish a higher good? Did he ever imply that the ends justify the means? Does our perfect heavenly Father use imperfect ways to accomplish His will? Does He have to use imperfect ways because He has no other choice? Is it because His perfect ways do not work? I of course disagree with all of these. I do not see where Jesus came to destroy the works of the Father. He came to destroy the works of the devil... the "steal, kill, destroy" thing. He went about doing "good"... and I do not see anything in His work that we could possibly consider bad as in: inflicting poverty or sickness or death, refusing to heal "because sickness is accomplishing good in your life." These things are just not in His life and ministry. In His entire ministry to thousands of people we never see Him run up on one such soul. Jesus was the exact image of the Father. When He was speaking and performing works, it was actually the Father speaking and doing the works. When we see Jesus, we see the Father clearly and without need for interpretation. Jesus specified that one of His missions was to show us the Father. I believe He succeeded. If the Father did evil to accomplish good, then that would have shown up in the life and ministry of Jesus. We simply do not see that in the gospels.
Finally, we know that God sent ministry gifts and spiritual gifts to perfect the church. We do not see the "working of sicknesses" or "impoverishment" in the gifts as means of accomplishing this end. We see gifts that are intended to edify, comfort, and exhort.
In the end, it is always faith in God and His word that ultimately accomplishes His will in our lives... and we can do that without being forced into it by sickness and poverty. We can just pray and choose to believe.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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am not trying to write a full response to your posts here, but I hope to stimulate others to reflect on this matter too. Forgive me for using your post as a springboard for more questions
Interesting that there are so few responses to this thread regarding the goodness of God.
Could it be that many believers are unsure about the goodness of God with respect to the source of suffering? Perhaps this is a reflection on the condition of faith in churches today. Paul did say that in order to please God we have to believe that He is AND that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Perhaps we as a body do not have this confidence. If we are unsure about the goodness of God then we may be a bit shaky on the "rewarder" part of this requirement.
The silence is unsettling.
 
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Andrew

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There is Biblical suffering which the Bible tells Christians to expect to have, and there is 'unbiblical' suffering which Christians are not supposed to go through. Below is something I've written on the topic. Although it was written more to address the issue of sickness, I'll just post it as it is:

Are you suffering for the wrong reasons?

If sicknesses and tragic accidents are not supposed to be part of a Christian's sufferings, then what things are? What, according to the Bible, are the types of sufferings Christians can expect to go through?

To answer the question, let us look at the example of Paul, followed by what Peter teaches about the sufferings of a Christian.


Paul's sufferings:cry:

What kinds of sufferings did Paul go through? Does he include sicknesses and accidents in his "list" of sufferings?

* 2 Corinthians 11:23-29
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths [threats] oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils [dangers] of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

* 2 Timothy 3:10-12
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.


We can see that Paul's sufferings had to do with persecutions and dangers, as he went from place to place preaching the gospel boldly. In fact, he makes in quite clear in 2 Timothy 3:12 that all Christians who live godly lives in Christ Jesus will suffer "persecution". However, there is no mention of sicknesses or tragic accidents where lives and limbs were lost.

Even when Paul suffered shipwreck in Acts 27, it was because he was a prisoner forced to go on the voyage which he already knew would be disastrous (Acts 27:10). Even then, God delivered him as well as the entire ungodly crew to safety (Acts 27:44)! (See God delivers us out of them all!)


What Peter teaches

Peter also talks about the sufferings of a Christian. What types of sufferings is he talking about? Is sickness included? Why do Christians suffer?

Quoting from the NIV, you will see that the sufferings of a Christian described in 1 Peter have nothing to do with sicknesses.

Sufferings: Unjust treatment and possibly beatings from harsh slave masters.
Reasons: For being God conscious and doing good.


* 1 Peter 2:18-23
18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
19 For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.
20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

Sufferings: Insults. We also know that Christ was accused by false witnesses (Matthew 26:59-62); spat in the face, punched, slapped, ridiculed (Matthew 26:67,68); scourged (Matthew 27:26); stripped, mocked, spat upon, struck on the head with a reed (Matthew 27:28-31); and reviled (Matthew 27:39).
Reason: As an example for Christians to follow, that is, to humbly endure (not retaliate) persecution for being a good Christian.


* 1 Peter 2:21-23
21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."
23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

Sufferings: Harm and slander.
Reasons: For doing good and good behaviour in Christ.


* 1 Peter 3:13-17
13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good?
14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened."
15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
17 It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

Sufferings: Bodily harm and heaps of abuse.
Reasons: For no longer participating in evil pagan activities but living for the will of God.


* 1 Peter 4:1-4
1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.
2 As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.
3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.
4 They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you.

Sufferings: Those of Christ and insults.
Reasons: For bearing the name of Christ.


* 1 Peter 4:12-16
12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you.
13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.
14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.
16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

Sufferings: Persecution, verbal abuse and false accusations.
Reasons: For righteousness sake and for Christ's sake.


* Matthew 5:10,11
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.


God delivers us out of them all!:clap:

We have looked at Paul's sufferings as well as what Peter teaches about the sufferings of a Christian, and seen that they have nothing to do with sicknesses.

But what is important to note also, is that both Apostles say that Christ will deliver us out of whatever suffering we are going through!

Paul says:

* 2 Timothy 3:11
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.


And although we may face the troubles that Paul faced, we must also ask ourselves if we are called to suffer the way Paul suffered, that is, to the same degree.

* Acts 9:16
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


Do all believers have this calling from the Lord? I don't believe God has this plan for every Christian. You might expect a Christian to have the same sufferings Paul had if he were called to preach the Gospel in, say, Afghanistan, but if he just goes to church on Sundays, I seriously doubt that he will suffer the way Paul did. (See also Was Paul's thorn some sort of sickness? and Trophimus left sick.)

In Peter's teaching on the sufferings of a Christian, he ends off by saying:

* 1 Peter 5:8-10
8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.
10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.


Notice that he is telling us that these sufferings that Christians throughout the world experience are from the devil, not God. But the good news is this: the suffering is for "a little while", after which God will "restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast"! In other words, these sufferings are not permanent and you are not supposed to die from it, unless you are called to martyrdom.

Below are more scriptures that show us that despite the persecutions and troubles we can expect to face, God will deliver us out of them all!

* Psalms 34:6
6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.
* Psalms 34:19
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
* 2 Timothy 4:18
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


So, even if you still insists that sicknesses must be part of a Christian's sufferings, then you must at least believe that God will deliver the Christian out of all sicknesses, to be consistent.


What about Job?:confused:

It is strange that Christians who believe in suffering sicknesses "for God's glory" often point to Job's sufferings, but never to his perseverance, healing, double blessings and long life.

They simply leave out the fact that Job's ordeal lasted only about nine months; that God finally healed job, blessed him with twice as much as he had before; and that Job lived to a ripe old age (Job 42:10-17).

This is certainly an inconsistent and lop-sided understanding of the book of Job.

Even James, when speaking of suffering, reminds us of Job's perseverance, and "what the Lord finally brought" about because "the Lord is full of compassion and mercy".

* James 5:11
11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
:clap:
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Thanks Andy... good post.
Much of what masquerades as Christianity today is mere theism. In large part it pretty much ignores Christ and His work, and is still depending on a day by day Jobian religion of no faith that has little or no knowledge of the actual nature and will God.
I find it so sad that the children of God would go through life ducking and dodging God for fear of what He will do to them if they fail. How could someone with such a concept of Him even dare approach the throne of God in time of need... much less do it boldly?
I have seen bad fathers. Their kids are afraid of them. It is a sad testimony to the love of the parents.
 
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