God is Light

[Rafael]

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

In 1997 a Geneva researcher created a pair of twin light photons and sent them flying in opposite directions along optical fibers. When one photon hit a mirror it was forced to make a random choice to go one way or the other. Which ever way it went its twin photon already seven miles away always instantaneously took the very same option. Instantaneous is the key word here. The reaction of the twin photon was not delayed by the amount of time it takes light to travel seven miles. Other more recent experiments support this finding. In fact, physicists now believe that an entangled twin particle will know what its partner is doing and instantaneously mimic its actions even if the pair live in separate galaxies billions of light years apart. Since we've been told that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, how does one photon on one side of the universe know what the other photon on the other side of the universe is doing? Instantly? This phenomenon is called quantum non locality, and has brought some very interesting questions to the floor about light and its awareness of itself. Since Einstein showed us that light indeed has a corollary with the eternal now of timelessness, there has been great strides in Mathematics unifying the quantum physics and relative physics of the universe. Each year it seems we get closer to proving the possiblities of the Bible's verses saying that God is light and that someday He will be the light of the world. I was wondering if any others have been looking into this and could share anything else they have found.

 

[Deamiter]

Um... your theology (if you will forgive a bad joke) seems pretty Materialist in saying that God IS everything. I mean, it sounds all good and well when you talk about photons, but the truth is that all particles can be prepared in entangled pairs...

Anyway, I would hold strongly to the conclusion that Augustine made in my signature. We should not try to describe the physical world based on biblical teaching. Not only was the Bible designed to be a guide to God, not a textbook, it uses symbolism distinct to the age in which it was written.

 

[Rafael]

I was wondering if any others have been looking into this and could share anything else they have found.

This is not my theology. Notice I asked a question for more information. I didn't really ask for or diserved a rebuke and a scoff.
I don't know what materialism has to do with what I said, at all. M-theory, non-locality, seems to have some groups of scientist excited and changing their minds about many things these days. I saw a program with Steven Hawking speaking about God for the first time I've ever seen when expressing surprise about quantum non-locality which they have called an "unknown variable". Entangled or not, it interested him.
A book by T. Lee Baumann called "God at the Speed of Light" is also pretty good reading and I've got it ordered just by seeing him speak.
I don't limit God or put Him in a box. Men don't know how to give life or much about the dimension of timelessness called eternity or any of the elemental things such as light, but the scientists are closing in on some interesting properties light has when observed mathematically and with what few experiements they have been able to devise - such as with the nonlocality experiment with mirrors seven miles apart. I thought maybe someone in this forum would have more information.
Materialism?? What about this scripture where it says we live and exist inside God. Is that materialism. No, Biblical materialism is lusting after things. Even if I were materialistic in a scientific way, don't we live in a material world? The true nature of the universe on all levels is spiritual, physical, and mental, IMO.

Ac 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

 

[Deamiter]

I'm sorry. I said it was a bad joke, but it wasn't meant to be taken seriously that you base your theology on this science. My point was simply that it is not only photons that become entangled, but particles on that scale in general. I was responding primarily to the title of your post, "God is Light." I guess I made the connection (and then the bad joke) that if God is light (by this criteria), then he must also be protons and electrons and quarks etc... and therefore God IS everything -- The belief that God IS the universe (not merely that God is EVERYWHERE in the universe) isn't materialism, but it's another close theological word that I think I was supposed to learn in my Christian Theology class...

Ah well... that's what I get for studying science rather than memorizing the epsitomological consequences of the different Pauline letters. I do know, however, that given all subatomic particles' abilities to become entangled, that this can't prove, in a Biblical sense, that God is light.

Hope I made more sense without insulting you! The more I learn about the world through my field of physics, the more I see God in all these areas! Some of the details are so amazing! I just try not to draw literal parallels between the Bible and our understanding of physics, but I am nearly certain that everything I'm being taught now will have been thrown out by the time my kids are dead so any relationship is in my imagination and not a valid explanation of the nature of God.

 

[funyun]

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

In 1997 a Geneva researcher created a pair of twin light photons and sent them flying in opposite directions along optical fibers. When one photon hit a mirror it was forced to make a random choice to go one way or the other. Which ever way it went its twin photon already seven miles away always instantaneously took the very same option. Instantaneous is the key word here. The reaction of the twin photon was not delayed by the amount of time it takes light to travel seven miles. Other more recent experiments support this finding. In fact, physicists now believe that an entangled twin particle will know what its partner is doing and instantaneously mimic its actions even if the pair live in separate galaxies billions of light years apart. Since we've been told that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, how does one photon on one side of the universe know what the other photon on the other side of the universe is doing? Instantly? This phenomenon is called quantum non locality, and has brought some very interesting questions to the floor about light and its awareness of itself. Since Einstein showed us that light indeed has a corollary with the eternal now of timelessness, there has been great strides in Mathematics unifying the quantum physics and relative physics of the universe. Each year it seems we get closer to proving the possiblities of the Bible's verses saying that God is light and that someday He will be the light of the world. I was wondering if any others have been looking into this and could share anything else they have found.

Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. What you are describing doesn't violate any laws of physics. It's a property of particles called quantum entanglement. Contrary to what you are suggesting, information is not transmitted in quantum entanglement, though the phenomenon does indeed occur insantly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

As for the philosophical aspect of this, I don't know at all how you can somehow try to use quantum entanglement as an argument for the existance of god. Are you telling me that god is electromagnetic radiation?

 

[Yamialpha]

Could it be possible that one particle is actually a holograph of the other? Or that the two particles are the holographs of particles sharing the same provenance? This is logical since they would share information concerning what path they should take. Even the former wouldn't violate this because of the fact that the secondary particle would still contain identical information to the primary particle if it is a holographic particle. It's just a thought.

 

[Deamiter]

Yamialpha -- you're using the term holograph incorrectly I think. A holograph is a three-dimensional projection of an object, and isn't really related to this subject at all. However, it does sound like you're close to understanding the phenomenon, so I'll try to make it a bit clearer for you.

In a very basic understanding of relativity, it is impossible for ANY information to travel faster than the speed of light. It isn't simply hard, but actually impossible. However, Quantum Mechanics has shown that you can entangle two particles so that they ALWAYS have identical states. Therefore, if you change the state of one, the other particle must change states at exactly the same time, and in exactly the same way. So even if you take one particle to China, and the other to Mexico, every time you change the state of one, it instantaniously changes the state of the other (without any information traveling through the earth)

It can be used to trasmit information, not just FASTER, than the speed of light, but instantaniously (kind of like at infinite speed). It allows you to have information transmitted without the limitations of relativity.

I hope that helps!

 

[Yamialpha]

I'm speaking of a different holograph (or a different aspect of one).I'm talking about a holographic universe as to where one part of the universe would contain all of the information of the rest of the universe. I apologize for any confusion. Basically what my point was the two particles could contain the same informational characteristics of a holograph. Of course, with a holographic particle, you could alter the path of the particle but it would not affect the other particle, which is contrary to quantum non-locality. There was a similar experiment completed where a photon was emitted and reflected from a mirror. There were two photocells that the photon could travel to. The experiment showed that the same photon would go to both cells with all of its characteristics intact. Follow-up experiments proved the same thing. I also saw the same interview with Stephen Hawking that you mentioned, and I must admitt that was the first time he had ever mentioned God in any interview I've ever seen him in. I know that was one of the reasons he and his wife had separated. They had conflicting religious views.

Again I apologize for any confusion I caused. I was just implying that the particles could be holographic, just as some physicist believe our universe is.

 

[Rafael]

Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. What you are describing doesn't violate any laws of physics. It's a property of particles called quantum entanglement. Contrary to what you are suggesting, information is not transmitted in quantum entanglement, though the phenomenon does indeed occur insantly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

As for the philosophical aspect of this, I don't know at all how you can somehow try to use quantum entanglement as an argument for the existance of god. Are you telling me that god is electromagnetic radiation?

No, I'm asking questions out of interest.
What about the theories about tachyons?

 

[Rafael]

I'm speaking of a different holograph (or a different aspect of one).I'm talking about a holographic universe as to where one part of the universe would contain all of the information of the rest of the universe. I apologize for any confusion. Basically what my point was the two particles could contain the same informational characteristics of a holograph. Of course, with a holographic particle, you could alter the path of the particle but it would not affect the other particle, which is contrary to quantum non-locality. There was a similar experiment completed where a photon was emitted and reflected from a mirror. There were two photocells that the photon could travel to. The experiment showed that the same photon would go to both cells with all of its characteristics intact. Follow-up experiments proved the same thing. I also saw the same interview with Stephen Hawking that you mentioned, and I must admitt that was the first time he had ever mentioned God in any interview I've ever seen him in. I know that was one of the reasons he and his wife had separated. They had conflicting religious views.

Again I apologize for any confusion I caused. I was just implying that the particles could be holographic, just as some physicist believe our universe is.

I have a book here called "the Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot. I haven't gotten into it very far yet, though. It basically explores the idea that things are far more connected in the universe than ever before imagined by physicists. A connection between mind and matter is also explored.
That program was the very first time I ever heard Hawking say anything even remotely close to saying that there is God. I wish they would rerun it.
Here's a link you may find of interest:

http://www.keelynet.com/biology/reality.htm

 

[Rafael]

Yamialpha -- you're using the term holograph incorrectly I think. A holograph is a three-dimensional projection of an object, and isn't really related to this subject at all. However, it does sound like you're close to understanding the phenomenon, so I'll try to make it a bit clearer for you.

In a very basic understanding of relativity, it is impossible for ANY information to travel faster than the speed of light. It isn't simply hard, but actually impossible. However, Quantum Mechanics has shown that you can entangle two particles so that they ALWAYS have identical states. Therefore, if you change the state of one, the other particle must change states at exactly the same time, and in exactly the same way. So even if you take one particle to China, and the other to Mexico, every time you change the state of one, it instantaniously changes the state of the other (without any information traveling through the earth)

It can be used to trasmit information, not just FASTER, than the speed of light, but instantaniously (kind of like at infinite speed). It allows you to have information transmitted without the limitations of relativity.

I hope that helps!

That's interesting. Wouldn't that be faster than the speed of light then? What do you think about tachyons?

 

[funyun]

No, I'm asking questions out of interest.
What about the theories about tachyons?

What about them? They are purely theoretical. They have no mathematical, observable, or experimental verification. If they do exist, they are completely superfluous.

And if they do exist, everything goes right out the window, because causality no longer exists.

As for this "hologram" business, how could a photon be a hologram, as holograms are made of light, and light is made of photons?

 

[funyun]

It can be used to trasmit information, not just FASTER, than the speed of light, but instantaniously (kind of like at infinite speed). It allows you to have information transmitted without the limitations of relativity.

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

 

[tamtam92]

Well it looks interesting...
Do you have some reliable links so that i can have a closer look...

 

[Deamiter]

I'm sorry funyun -- of course you are right (though it might have helped to try to explain your position in your post). In studying undergrad physics, I haven't kept up with high-level theory as it's either too technical or too dumbed-down to be useful to me!

Information still can't be transmitted faster than the speed of light, though entanglement is potentially very useful for encryption. From some reference frames, it does appear to violate causality, but that's simply a disagreed upon side effect of some arguable assumptions.

Here is a link that does a pretty good job of laying it out with very little math -- just technical enough to perhaps give anyone interested a better understanding of the theories and arguments involved.

http://fergusmurray.members.beeb.net/Causality.html

 

[ICHTHYS_follower]

The more I learn about the world through my field of physics, the more I see God in all these areas! Some of the details are so amazing! I just try not to draw literal parallels between the Bible and our understanding of physics, but I am nearly certain that everything I'm being taught now will have been thrown out by the time my kids are dead so any relationship is in my imagination and not a valid explanation of the nature of God.

Hello Deamiter,

I was reading your post and was wondering if you can help me with a question I have. I have an understanding of the chronology of Holy Week that relates the Christian faith with science. I have placed the posts in General Theology. My question is, would science today be able to conclusively prove or disprove my hypothesis? To date, I have not found any Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

http://www.christianforums.com/t1063747-chronology-of-holy-week.html

Any help would be appreciated. If you are not interested, I will understand.

In Christ's service,

David

 

[AV1611VET]

In 1997 a Geneva researcher created a pair of twin light photons and sent them flying in opposite directions along optical fibers. When one photon hit a mirror it was forced to make a random choice to go one way or the other. Which ever way it went its twin photon already seven miles away always instantaneously took the very same option.

* Paging Wiccan Child -- Paging Wiccan Child *

Please pick up the white courtesy phone at your nearest location -- thank you.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

* Paging Wiccan Child -- Paging Wiccan Child *

Please pick up the white courtesy phone at your nearest location -- thank you.

If I get stumped with an international phone bill...

The experiment, performed by one Nicolas Gisin, did show quantum entanglement and instantaneous collapse of wavefunctions. This is nothing new, it doesn't allow for information transfer (you can't force the photon at one end to choose which direction to go in), and I'm baffled as to how it could in any way demonstrate the existence of God.

Quantum entanglement. Crazy stuff, but not really unusual.

 

[Nick665]

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, electrons, atoms, small molecules, and in him is no darkness at all.

Oh wait...back to the drawing board.

 

[Michael]

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, electrons, atoms, small molecules, and in him is no darkness at all.

Oh wait...back to the drawing board.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/

Well, not exactly. What Rafael describes is the "awareness" of God, not the entire physical form. If one simply embraces Pantheism and includes the concepts Rafael mentions related to "awareness", it's a pretty complete theory of "everything".