"God is changing lives"

[elizabethevangeline]

I was just talking to one of my best friends, she is very involved at a non-denom seeker church. Yesterday 200 people were baptized during their multiple services, many of those folks making spontaneous decisions to be baptized. She said "God is changing lives".

We also talked about about the small group my husband & I used to attend, and I sometimes miss it.

As Orthodox, where do we look for evidences that God is changing lives? Where do we share or encourage others by what we believe we see God to be doing, either in our own life or in another person's life? Do we just comment over coffee..."you used to be such a putz, but I see a real attitude change in you."

This isn't really thot out, just a quick longing, wondering if this is a remnant of evangelical life that I need to let go of. Or is that need to process life with others why many of us hang out in TAW?

 

[Peter]

I decided yesterday that I was really fat. I admitted it outloud to my wife. I was sincere in my evaluation. This morning I'm still fat.

Change takes time. My wife makes comments about my changes. Too often we fail to see the changes in others because we are changing with them.

Remember, a spontaneous decision is not the same as a change. An acorn to a mature tree is a change. Burying the acorn is not.

I do agree that we need to be more mindful of complimenting others. But even here we need to be careful. This could lead to pride in the mind of the hearer.

While we usually don't see mass converts like what you've described, we have a far superior mentoring program. Where will these 200 decisions be in 1, 5, 10, 25 years?
There is wisdom in the fathers making catechumins wait up to three years to be baptized.

But, if you want a good old evangelism story right out of Orthodoxy, here you go:

In this very forum I met a young man who was interested in Orthodox Christianity. I invited him to our parish. He came and brought a friend. The friend is unchurched. they came a few more times, then were with us for Pascha. The friend has become a catechumin. Since he has brought his brother and dad to church with him. Who knows where this will lead?

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

 

[elizabethevangeline]

Change takes time. My wife makes comments about my changes. Too often we fail to see the changes in others because we are changing with them.

Last week Orthodixie blog had a great series on converts and their strengths, weaknesses, etc. I think he mentioned converts needing affirmation. I didn't think much about it then...maybe I need to re-read his comments. Maybe he's refering to me!

While we usually don't see mass converts like what you've described, we have a far superior mentoring program. Where will these 200 decisions be in 1, 5, 10, 25 years?
There is wisdom in the fathers making catechumins wait up to three years to be baptized.

I've always been uneasy with "big" events like this for this very reason.

When you say mentoring program...what elements are you thinking of?

In this very forum I met a young man who was interested in Orthodox Christianity. I invited him to our parish. He came and brought a friend. The friend is unchurched. they came a few more times, then were with us for Pascha. The friend has become a catechumin. Since he has brought his brother and dad to church with him. Who knows where this will lead?

Pretty amazing isn't it? Orthodoxy isn't the easiest sell...come and be changed, leave your comfortable assumptions behind, kneel before God...literally. I've brought a friend and my parents. Would love to pack everyone into my backpack and bring'em along.

 

[RobNJ]

While we usually don't see mass converts like what you've described, we have a far superior mentoring program. Where will these 200 decisions be in 1, 5, 10, 25 years?

I'd almost say in 1,5,10,25 months

 

[katherine2001]

I decided yesterday that I was really fat. I admitted it outloud to my wife. I was sincere in my evaluation. This morning I'm still fat.

Change takes time. My wife makes comments about my changes. Too often we fail to see the changes in others because we are changing with them.

Remember, a spontaneous decision is not the same as a change. An acorn to a mature tree is a change. Burying the acorn is not.

I do agree that we need to be more mindful of complimenting others. But even here we need to be careful. This could lead to pride in the mind of the hearer.

While we usually don't see mass converts like what you've described, we have a far superior mentoring program. Where will these 200 decisions be in 1, 5, 10, 25 years?
There is wisdom in the fathers making catechumins wait up to three years to be baptized.

But, if you want a good old evangelism story right out of Orthodoxy, here you go:

In this very forum I met a young man who was interested in Orthodox Christianity. I invited him to our parish. He came and brought a friend. The friend is unchurched. they came a few more times, then were with us for Pascha. The friend has become a catechumin. Since he has brought his brother and dad to church with him. Who knows where this will lead?

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

(as I used to say as a Baptist all the time). I especially like the part where you asked where those people will be over the years? Let's face it, in all too many of these churches, they baptize people within a week of their accepting Christ, teach them a little during that time, and then leave the new Christian on their own after their baptism. Excuse me, but that is like bringing your newborn home and expecting the child to care for her or himself. It ain't gonna happen. Expecting a new Christian to be able to live a Christian life makes about as much sense.

The catechumen period is necessary to teach people the faith and to help them decide if they are ready to become a Christian. Remember, Jesus did tell us to count the cost before deciding to follow Him so that you wouldn't run out of steam and quit partway through (Luke 14:28-32). How can people count the cost when they are baptized before they know anything about what is required of them? The Orthodox way makes so much more sense. The priest isn't going to baptize and/or Chrismate you until he knows you are ready to be. Then once you are, the priest acts as your spiritual father/director and guides you along the path of salvation. You are confessing your sins to him, so he knows your weaknesses (and loves you and accepts you in spite of them) and helps you to overcome them with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Trust me, the priest sees whether changes are taking place. If they are not, he will apply different treatments to help those changes/healings take place. We are taught not to judge our own progress but to leave that up to our spiritual father.

Rdr. Peter is right. Real change takes time. God may sometimes instantly heal us of some sin, but that is not the way He usually works. As Fr. Hopko says, God is not a magician, fairy godmother, or mechanic. Can He wave His magic wand and instantly fix us? Yes, He could, but that is not usually His way. He lets us struggle to overcome our sins. If you remember, His road is a narrow and difficult (Matt 7:14). That's one of the reasons I disagree with OSAS--what is so difficult about saying the Sinner's Prayer and then being baptized and then being guaranteed being saved? It's difficult when you actually have to get the sin out and become like Christ! Now that is a narrow and difficult road.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

This morning I'm still fat.

Hey- me too! I'm hoping to be tonsured a reader, because those black robes are pretty slimming

I do agree that we need to be more mindful of complimenting others. But even here we need to be careful. This could lead to pride in the mind of the hearer.

Ya- somebody told me yesterday that my chanting gave them goosebumps. I was pretty proud of myself after that. Then I went up to the chanter's stand later in the afternoon and found a roll of toilet paper on the stand. I took it as a "sign" from God, reminding me of what I am without him.

Moses

 

[elizabethevangeline]

Ya- somebody told me yesterday that my chanting gave them goosebumps. I was pretty proud of myself after that. Then I went up to the chanter's stand later in the afternoon and found a roll of toilet paper on the stand. I took it as a "sign" from God, reminding me of what I am without him.

Moses

Ya, I try to stick to "you're not such a putz after all..."

 

[Peter]

What do we have as a training system? Well, the services themselves should act as a doctrine trainer. But what about the whole idea of sponsors? Being a recent convert myself, and one who had no formal training with my sponsor, I'd say that the memtoring system is still the way to go, if done correctly.

Each catechumin should be paired with an older wiser Christian who can answer questions, help establish a rule of prayer and give general spiritual advice (or at least explain our customs). I am doing this with my first spiritual son in the faith. Of course I discuss my advice with my priest, but the boy is going to get better training than I did!

And at least we have the system. As was mentioned above, too many people are "saved", baptized and then left to fend for themselves because most places dont have a clue what it means to disciple.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

 

[elizabethevangeline]

What do we have as a training system? Well, the services themselves should act as a doctrine trainer. But what about the whole idea of sponsors? Being a recent convert myself, and one who had no formal training with my sponsor, I'd say that the memtoring system is still the way to go, if done correctly.

Each catechumin should be paired with an older wiser Christian who can answer questions, help establish a rule of prayer and give general spiritual advice (or at least explain our customs). I am doing this with my first spiritual son in the faith. Of course I discuss my advice with my priest, but the boy is going to get better training than I did!

And at least we have the system. As was mentioned above, too many people are "saved", baptized and then left to fend for themselves because most places dont have a clue what it means to disciple.

Peace.

Rdr. Peter

When the role of sponsors was explained in Inquirers class, my 1st thot was it sounded like a mentoring system (some evangelical churches have highly developed mentoring programs). Does it generally work? Do most sponsors see themselves as mentoring another person?

I'm afraid I'm high maintenence...I've got one lady who gives me books to read and we talk theology over coffee, but while she is in the choir a 2nd friend stands with me during liturgy and tells me what to do when extra "stuff" comes up, or pulls me into line saying "you can do this, follow me".

I realize that I have no reference point for the priest to be a help in the daily areas of accountability...things that would come up in confession. I've never had a pastor involve himself in that, only close friends from a Bible Study.

 

[xenia]

I know God changes lives, and I know He does it through the Church.

My boss at work can be a very difficult person. He's a depressed, impulsive person who is cheerful and compliant one day and upset and defiant the next. It is only because of the disciplines that the Church has taught me that I am able to maintain any serenity at all as I work with this gentleman. Before I learned some of the ways of the Church I felt I had the right to stick up for myself and demand consistency and reasonableness. I am now beginning to learn that I can have a peacefulness Not of This World, thanks to the Church. I'm not there yet of course but I do see a big difference in my heart attitude towards this dear but difficult person.

Thanks be to the Lord!

 

[elizabethevangeline]

Thanks Xenia. It's those kind of evidences I like to hear and desire to experience myself...not numerical measurements of success.

Have I mentioned recently how much I like 1 John?

Thank God there is a Light to walk in.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Ya- somebody told me yesterday that my chanting gave them goosebumps. I was pretty proud of myself after that. Then I went up to the chanter's stand later in the afternoon and found a roll of toilet paper on the stand. I took it as a "sign" from God, reminding me of what I am without him.

Moses

LOL!

 

[sin_vladimirov]

Jesus Christ, the son of God, have mercy on me and save me, the sinner!


in ICXC
stefan+
the sinner

 

[Kolya]

In this very forum I met a young man who was interested in Orthodox Christianity. I invited him to our parish. He came and brought a friend. The friend is unchurched. they came a few more times, then were with us for Pascha. The friend has become a catechumin. Since he has brought his brother and dad to church with him. Who knows where this will lead?

Where was I reading the other day? I think a Bishop said we Orthodox converts are like "fish that flop into the boat of their own accord, one at a time."

Then I went up to the chanter's stand later in the afternoon and found a roll of toilet paper on the stand. I took it as a "sign" from God, reminding me of what I am without him.

Oh, woe is me. What am I that God should love such a wretch like me?

"Lord have mercy on me, a sinner."

 

[Mary of Bethany]

What we have to remember about the evangelicals is that for most of them, what happens after the "born again" experience is not all that important. Once saved, always saved, and all that. So once someone has "asked Jesus into their heart", they're A-OK. A little discipleship would be good, but not essential to their salvation, in their understanding of things.

Mary