God failed?

[JM]

Arminian:

If God desires to save all of humanity, because He loves all of humanity, why is He failing so miserably at saving all of humanity?

If God loves the believer and 'offers' to save him from sin what makes you think he is able to save you if he can't the rest of humanity?

The Arminian god is a failure.

jm

 

[jehoiakim]

That argument assumes the Calvinistic idea of Irrisistable grace. Which in many of our opinions contradicts the scriptures of [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matt 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

I think the concepts are also presented in 1 Tim1:19, Heb 6:4-6 [/FONT]

I would not identify myself as Arminian, but I wouldn't identify myself as a Calvinist by any means. To be logically consistent if you are a Calvinist, I think you have to be lead to hyper-Calvinism which I believe to be just as scripturally dangerous if not more so then Arminianism.

Calvinists however like to throw me in the Arminian camp, And I am not an Arminian because I agree with Calvinists on Total Depravity, and I also believe God does the all saving, it is not part of the "free-will" of man. In my thoughts while God must draw a man, and enable him to be saved, that man once he has come to know God can choose to remain in God's Grace or can choose to abandon God and resist his grace, loosing there salvation once and for all like in Heb 6:4-6 but once it is lost the cannot return because they have committed the "unforgivable sin" blasphemy against the HS.

 

[jehoiakim]

If not we are all just Robots, per-programed. God would have created a world where he by choice doomed some men to eternal punishment and would also be the author of evil committed by the pre-programmed man.If God was the author of evil wouldn't that make him evil to allow it to damn the majority of mankind? To me if I am understanding it correctly, the God of Calvinism is a failure.

 

[jehoiakim]

Frankly I understand there are problems on both sides, and I am not out so much to convince others how it is. I just want people to see that calvinism and Arminianism are both theologies and interpretations of man that seem to be flawed because they are trying to contain an uncontainable God in a theological box. My frustration is with people who are so instant that there way is the only way that they loose patience for others that struggle through these issues. I don't have all the answers and when someone thinks they do and ignore my concerns with their convictions and then demonizes me as a heretic, it tends to upset me. ( I am not pointing the finger at you specifically althought I have had that problem with quiet a few die hard Calvinists)

 

[JM]

That argument assumes the Calvinistic idea of Irrisistable grace.

Ahh, no it doesn't. It assumes the Arminian position that God is trying to save all humanity and most are rejecting the 'offer.' I will look at the scriptures you believe teach that God has failed and is failing now.

Which in many of our opinions contradicts the scriptures of [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

You will have to explain what you think this passage means. Just posting scripture without comment isn't helpful.

Matt 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Who is Jesus gathering? Not Jerusalem but 'your children' or the people of the City. The people are not represented as unwilling but prevented by the religious authorities.

I think the concepts are also presented in

1 Tim1:19, Heb 6:4-6

Please comment on passages you post instead of trying to proof text without explaining what you mean. 1 Tim. mentions shipwrecking your faith which is a good analogy since Paul was shipwrecked there times and never lost his salvation. Hebrews 6 is about falling away. please see the Reformed confessions on Perseverance of the Saints.

I would not identify myself as Arminian, but I wouldn't identify myself as a Calvinist by any means. To be logically consistent if you are a Calvinist, I think you have to be lead to hyper-Calvinism which I believe to be just as scripturally dangerous if not more so then Arminianism.

Thanks for telling us what you think but unless you can show how you make that leap from Calvinist to Hyper it really doesn't help the conversation.

Calvinists however like to throw me in the Arminian camp, And I am not an Arminian because I agree with Calvinists on Total Depravity,

You obviously do not believe man lacks ability, spiritually, to discern the Gospel and by the exercise of his free will believe and be saved. You cannot believe that humanity is TOTALLY depraved because you argue in favour of free will.

and I also believe God does the all saving, it is not part of the "free-will" of man.

You believe God's grace can forever be resisted right? The Reformed Christian believes God's grace maybe, for a time determined by God, resisted but ultimately God's grace is conquering grace. In love God subdues the rebellious sinner and saves him.

In my thoughts while God must draw a man, and enable him to be saved, that man once he has come to know God can choose to remain in God's Grace or can choose to abandon God and resist his grace,

The Divine Amway program. God does everything He can and now its up to you to finish it. To work the plan. What you are claiming is synergism and synergism is another name for Arminianism.

Monergism and Synergism - YouTube

loosing there salvation once and for all like in Heb 6:4-6 but once it is lost the cannot return because they have committed the "unforgivable sin" blasphemy against the HS.

The passage doesn't call those who fall away believers but refers to them who are most likely within the church (v2) but not believers. They have heard the Gospel and probably participated in the Lord's, generally experience life in the Body of Christ but this doesn't mean they were born again believers who were somehow unborn again.

If not we are all just Robots, per-programed.

You said we were pre-programmed. You posted that you believe in total depravity, aka original sin, that means we are born per-programmed to sin my friend. Only once we are set free by God are we free indeed.

God would have created a world where he by choice doomed some men to eternal punishment and would also be the author of evil committed by the pre-programmed man.

Do you deny hell? What is the purpose of hell if God never had it in mind to 'doom' some and save others? God ultimately set the standard, faith in Christ, by which humanity is saved...why doesn't He save everyone if He can save everyone?

If God was the author of evil wouldn't that make him evil to allow it to damn the majority of mankind?

If you believe hell is real you must answer that question. Why did God create a mass of people He foreknow would never choose (your words not mine) to believe in Him? You would have to deny the existence of hell.

To me if I am understanding it correctly, the God of Calvinism is a failure.

You write 'to me' a lot without much scripture interaction for your beliefs. Now explain how the God of the Bible expressed in Reformed theology has failed? You are the one how believes God is trying to save everyone and just can't. He's too weak to overpower the will of man is therefore subject to it.

Frankly I understand there are problems on both sides, and I am not out so much to convince others how it is. I just want people to see that calvinism and Arminianism are both theologies and interpretations of man that seem to be flawed because they are trying to contain an uncontainable God in a theological box. My frustration is with people who are so instant that there way is the only way that they loose patience for others that struggle through these issues. I don't have all the answers and when someone thinks they do and ignore my concerns with their convictions and then demonizes me as a heretic, it tends to upset me. ( I am not pointing the finger at you specifically althought I have had that problem with quiet a few die hard Calvinists)

Please watch my video. You are the guy who claims, from a position of invincible ignorance, "the Calvinist and Arminian are both wrong! I got it right! They have man made theories and I, well...I have the truth."

jm

 

[jehoiakim]

"the Calvinist and Arminian are both wrong! I got it right! They have man made theories and I, well...I have the truth."

jm

I said I think both are clearly flawed and I don't have all he answers either. The whole point of what I was saying is that it is frustrating to have these discussions with people who think they do have all the answers and anyone who doesn't agree with them is 1. ignorant of the scriptures or 2. Has poor Hermeneutics instead of legitimate concerns. I don't like areguing with people who do not have sympathy for others who are not so convinced.

I also did not provide scriptures where I thought God failed. I never said God failed as said I think the "God of Calvinism fails" if I understand it right. I was pointing out that I think hyper-Calvinism forces you to make conclusions that are inconsistent with a loving and all powerful God who is holy and righteous.

Mt 23:27, whether it is talking about the religious leaders or the people of Jerusalem is irrelevant. Someone was "unwilling" and God wanted to do otherwise, so in Calvinism where there is no "free-will" how could God want to gather people together, but be prevented by man? this makes no sense unless God is not all powerful. I believe that is also heresy, but the idea that man can resist the Holy Spirit does I think fit certain scriptures and is not necessarily inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

I believe man is totally depraved until the Spirit saves him, and then he has "free will" to remain.

I do not deny Hell, if I was a hyper calvinist, I think it would be inconsistent with a righteus God because an all powerful being would have created people not with any intention of saving them but only for damning them. sort of like a kid likes to burn ants with a magnifying glass. I could be more comfortable with Calvinism if If I were an annihilation, which I am leaning towards and I also think scripture teachers.


I will view the video later. I am kind of short on time now

 

[jehoiakim]

Ps I apologize for not responding to everything my wife had just gotten home and my family is priority right now so I will try to get back to it

 

[JM]

No rush. I would prefer if you took some time and responded in one post instead of multiple posts.

I said I think both are clearly flawed and I don't have all he answers either. The whole point of what I was saying is that it is frustrating...

No one has all the answers but some people have some answer that are worth considering.

I also did not provide scriptures where I thought God failed. I never said God failed as said I think the "God of Calvinism fails" if I understand it right.

I asked how is it that God desires to save all humanity and He can't and you posted scriptures as to why God is not able to save.

I was pointing out that I think hyper-Calvinism forces you to make conclusions that are inconsistent with a loving and all powerful God who is holy and righteous.

You need to define what you mean by Hyper Calvinism. The word is used far too often and it has come to lose its meaning.

Mt 23:27, whether it is talking about the religious leaders or the people of Jerusalem is irrelevant.

Really?

v. 2 “...Pharisees sit in Moses sit...”
v. 6 “...chief seats in the synagogues...”
v. 7 “...Rabbi, Rabbi...”
v. 13 “But woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees...”
v. 14 “Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees...”
v. 15 “Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees...”
v. 16 “Woe unto you, ye blind guides...”

Still irrelevant? You are ignoring who Christ is talking about. It is clearly the religious authority in view.

Someone was "unwilling" and God wanted to do otherwise,

Christ is God in the flesh and had to endure suffering as a man. He experienced everything we experience (except sin) and still remained perfect. Christ came as a servant of God the Father and accomplishes His Fathers will, not ours or even His will, so it presumptuous to assume the reasons why the Father did not remove the obstacle in their way. Could Christ have gathered His children out from under the authority of Jerusalem? Yes and He eventually did with the destruction of Jerusalem the religious leaders were done away with.

so in Calvinism where there is no "free-will" how could God want to gather people together, but be prevented by man?

Reformed theology leaves plenty of room for free will, just not your idea of libertarian free will, where the Creator is subject to the will of the Created.

this makes no sense unless God is not all powerful. I believe that is also heresy, but the idea that man can resist the Holy Spirit does I think fit certain scriptures and is not necessarily inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

But that is exactly what you are saying, that God is not all powerful and His will is not free...mans will is. This is the corner you are arguing from, that God is weak and cannot save unless man allows Him to do so.

I believe man is totally depraved until the Spirit saves him, and then he has "free will" to remain.

Are you suggesting the Spirit regenerates all people, from all nations everywhere regardless of the preaching of the Gospel? If God doesn't why does He choose to regenerate some and not others? What is the purpose in the preaching of the Gospel?

I do not deny Hell,

Phew! That was a close one. I will engage you for a few posts before unsubscribing from the thread but if you deny hell I won't engage you at all.

if I was a hyper calvinist, I think it would be inconsistent with a righteus God because an all powerful being would have created people not with any intention of saving them but only for damning them.

I could see your point if I ignored what the scripture teaches about total depravity and thought God owed mankind something. God doesn't have to save anyone but He did, that's call grace and mercy my man. The thought shouldn't be, 'how could God send people to hell but how could God save a wretch like me?'

sort of like a kid likes to burn ants with a magnifying glass. I could be more comfortable with Calvinism if If I were an annihilation, which I am leaning towards and I also think scripture teachers.

Either way your not off the hook. God still created a mass of people He foreknew would never believe in Christ and be sent to hell. Biblical doctrine is not a matter of comfort but belief.

I will view the video later. I am kind of short on time now

10 / 4

Don't let me or CF get in the way of your family. Don't think about this debate for a few days, enjoy your night with them and have a happy new year. I might loose interest tonight and not respond to you at all, no offensive, but the back and forth can get silly after a while.

I'm making a few cocktails and chillin'.

Peace.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Let me asks you this if God loves us would it really be true love if He did NOT give us the choice?

 

[JM]

Let me asks you this if God loves us would it really be true love if He did NOT give us the choice?

Please do not hijack my thread. Thanks ALLofNOTHING.

Would you like to explain how God, wanting to save all of humanity but can't, is not a failure?

That was my last post in this thread for a few days. Time to play the banjo, hang with family and enjoy some good whisky and tobacco.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Please do not hijack my thread. Thanks ALLofNOTHING.

Would you like to explain how God, wanting to save all of humanity but can't, is not a failure?

That was my last post in this thread for a few days. Time to play the banjo, hang with family and enjoy some good whisky and tobacco.

Would I like to explain well I never said He could not but it is not true love if we are forced to "love" Him.

 

[Elderone]

Let me asks you this if God loves us would it really be true love if He did NOT give us the choice?

And who are we to be questioning God? Talk about hut-spa.

(Chutzpah is a Hebrew word used to described someone who has overstepped the boundaries of accepted behavior with no shame.

Similar English words are: audacity, impertinence, and insolence.

It can express admiration (for non-conformance) or be used derogitorily to express disdain for their arrogance.)

Here is something to think about.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 

[dogs4thewin]

And who are we to be questioning God? Talk about hut-spa.

(Chutzpah is a Hebrew word used to described someone who has overstepped the boundaries of accepted behavior with no shame.

Similar English words are: audacity, impertinence, and insolence.

It can express admiration (for non-conformance) or be used derogitorily to express disdain for their arrogance.)

Here is something to think about.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

It is OK to question God, matter of a fact He can more than handle our questions. He WANTS us to tell Him how we feel (even though He already knows. For example, that is largely what the Psalms are There are Psalms that are questioning God if they are honest questions God does not mind.