God exists outside of time?

Deaver · Jun 13, 2011

sandwiches said:
You can't be eternal if there is no frame of reference, aka time.

That idea is as meaningless as saying that color exists without light.

Even though, I have a general understanding of what you are saying, I respectfully disagree and respond with this.

Atheists, those that are skeptical of supernatural claims, cannot understand that to Christians God is incomprehensible. Our finite minds cannot comprehend an infinite and eternal God. Christians cannot explain how it is that God has always existed and He always will. God alone fully understands all things. We need to understand that.

Being eternal, God is not bound by time. Nothing can resist Him and nothing will ever be able to bring an end to Him. Having always existed, He sees the past and the future as clearly as the present.

I think the first verse of the Bible is the foundational verse of the Bible. In Genesis 1:1, Moses writes, "In the beginning God In these first four words we learn that God is eternal in nature. Before time and anything else, there was God. Believe Genesis 1:1 and you can believe all that follows. They form the foundation for faith.

Not one of the writers of the Scriptures attempted to prove or argue the existence of God. It is a fact taken by faith by those who wrote and spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, who is the author of the Holy Bible (2 Peter 1:21; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17).

drich0150 · Jun 13, 2011

sandwiches said:
You can't be eternal if there is no frame of reference, aka time.

That idea is as meaningless as saying that color exists without light.

Eternity is by definition beyond the limits of time.

What does forever mean if not one can not measure it by our current understanding of time. If you believe you can then by all means using our current system of time (show us the color of light) That is please give me an exact measure of eternity using our current method of measuring time (Second, minute, Hour, Day, Week, Month, Year, decade, century, Melinia...)

Or is it as I described? Is Eternity beyond the very nature or boundaries of time?

Btodd · Jun 13, 2011

drich0150 said:
Eternity is by definition beyond the limits of time.

What does forever mean if not one can not measure it by our current understanding of time. If you believe you can then by all means using our current system of time (show us the color of light) That is please give me an exact measure of eternity using our current method of measuring time (Second, minute, Hour, Day, Week, Month, Year, decade, century, Melinia...)

Or is it as I described? Is Eternity beyond the very nature or boundaries of time?

The issue for me with that it is...it's merely defining the solution as being outside the scope of the problem. Without addressing the problem.

I realize that it's a faith thing, and I'm fine with that as a person's right...but I'm not personally fine with that as a rational, satisfying answer to the problem.

Btodd

drich0150 · Jun 13, 2011

Btodd said:
The issue for me with that it is...it's merely defining the solution as being outside the scope of the problem. Without addressing the problem.

I realize that it's a faith thing, and I'm fine with that as a person's right...but I'm not personally fine with that as a rational, satisfying answer to the problem.

Btodd

Isn't your post, an exact example of what it is you claim you are "not fine with?"

Otherwise why did you fail to present a solution?

You must know without a solution you have only identified the problem (without addressing it.)

Btodd · Jun 13, 2011

drich0150 said:
Isn't your post, an exact example of what it is you claim you are "not fine with?"

Otherwise why did you fail to present a solution?

You must know without a solution you have only identified the problem (without addressing it.)

My point was that God is not a solution. It's a 'punting' of the problem, by mere way of semantics...defining it as outside the problem.

If you want my solution, which is provisional pending reason to think otherwise...is that there may not have been a first cause. And if there were, it wouldn't necessitate God any more than an 'initial condition'. We really have no way to address those problems, so your solution is faith-based and adherent...since the solution is defined in a way as to escape the problem, you have no reason to look for evidence to abandon it. It's settled. I do still have reason, if the evidence suggests it. So far, I haven't found enough.

Btodd

elopez · Jun 13, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
As I said before, putting those type of perimeters on time doesnt make sense to me. If God has always existed, then time can be applied to anything he has ever done thus as long as anything (God included) exists, so does time.

Exactly what perimeters am I putting on time? If God has always existed and time has not always existed but is finite and had a beginning, then I do not understand how you can say time can be applied to anything God has ever done. Time is not eternal and nor is the universe.

Ken-1122 said:
so how is it possible for God to exist without the concept of time being applied to his existence?

It's hard to conceive of how it is possible, indeed. It's hard to think of it in terms of our existence so we shouldn't compare it to that. God transcends our existence in every aspect, so while it may not be possible for us or for us to fully grasp I do not think that means it isn't possible for a transcendent being who created the universe.

Ken-1122 said:
My bad; I meant Perimeters not parameters. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

No problem I suppose. Though I do not think that term is any more clarified than the other spelling error.

Ken-1122 · Jun 13, 2011

Drich0150
(quote) To exist outside of time is the what it means to be eternal.

(reply) But time is eternal as well! Please explain how the concept of time cannot be applied to the actions of God.

(quote) What does forever mean if not one can not measure it by our current understanding of time.

(reply) forever means to never end. Because like numbers; time is forever, the concept of time can be applied to that which will exist forever. If you disagree, please explain

Deaver
(quote) Atheists, those that are skeptical of supernatural claims, cannot understand that to Christians God is incomprehensible. Our finite minds cannot comprehend an infinite and eternal God.

(reply) so why are they always explaining and defining God? Are they simply parroting what theyve heard someone else say without any real understanding of what they are actually talking about?

(quote) Being eternal, God is not bound by time."

(reply) Again; there are no boundaries to time. Please explain how the concept of time cant be applied to the actions of God.

Ken

drich0150 · Jun 13, 2011

Btodd said:
My point was that God is not a solution.

Click to expand...

Then it is apparent that you do not fully grasp the question. The Op originally asked What does it mean that God is outside of time. The premise of God is not the primary focus of this post, but to the nature of time itself.

It's a 'punting' of the problem, by mere way of semantics...defining it as outside the problem.

Click to expand...

How so, if the focus of the inquiry is indeed on the concept of eternity, and how that relates to being outside the scope of known time?

If you want my solution, which is provisional pending reason to think otherwise...

Click to expand...

Not really, only proving the point that you did not have an irreconcilable problem of presenting a problem with no apparent solution, when it comes to your own personal philosophy.

is that there may not have been a first cause. And if there were, it wouldn't necessitate God any more than an 'initial condition'.

Click to expand...

I never addressed the "initial condition" in anything that I said. That makes this statement another "solution outside the scope of the problem" being discussed.

without We really have no way to address those problems, so your solution is faith-based and adherent...

Click to expand...

Again the problems being addressed are not "faith based." What is being addressed is the very nature of time itself. One can apply this understanding to any infinite time related variable. It does not have to be God.

since the solution is defined in a way as to escape the problem, you have no reason to look for evidence to abandon it. It's settled. I do still have reason, if the evidence suggests it. So far, I haven't found enough.

Click to expand...

It seems that you have presumed too much.

Btodd · Jun 13, 2011

drich0150 said:
Btodd said:

Then it is apparent that you do not fully grasp the question. The Op originally asked What does it mean that God is outside of time. The premise of God is not the primary focus of this post, but to the nature of time itself.

Click to expand...

No, otherwise the question would have been, 'what does it mean for anything to be outside of time?'. It was inherent in relation to the concept of God.

I did not parse the rest of your post, but will return with the question that I don't have a satisfactory answer for. "If God is outside of time, then was there ever a point, a moment, or whatever you want to call it...when the God existed, and the universe did not?".

If not, then God's existence is simultaneous with the universe. And if you admit that the universe is finite, this presents a problem for the idea that God 'always' existed.

The word, 'always', means 'at any time', 'at all times', etc.

To even start speaking of God existing always, while the universe did not, doesn't make sense. Saying he's 'outside' of always doesn't do anything, either...and that's not the same appeal I'm making to the initial condition, if that's the answer.

Btodd

drich0150 · Jun 13, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Drich0150

(reply) But time is eternal as well! Please explain how the concept of time cannot be applied to the actions of God.

Click to expand...

How do we measure time? God existed before these measures were in place, and He will be there after these standards have vanished away. Time our time is relative to our lives and experiences. once we cease to live this life our records of time will no longer serve us.

(reply) forever means to never end. Because like numbers; time is forever, the concept of time can be applied to that which will exist forever. If you disagree, please explain

Click to expand...

We know that cold is the lack of heat. How do we know that Heat is not the lack of cold? Because their is a temperature in which "cold" can not be measured past.(absolute Zero) Unlike heat which has no known upper limit. That makes Heat (for now) an infinite quantity. It also makes 'cold' finite, or measurable, kinda like time. Because Time indeed had a beginning (no matter what you believe) and it will someday have an end. (at least our known understanding of time will.)

Now because Heat, (like infinity) has no limit, we are only able to determine the severity of heat to it's relationship with absolute zero. like wise we are only able to claim a knowledge of our portion of infinity through the measure we call time. Time is not infinite because what we measure time by, had a born on date and will eventually have an expiration date. (no matter what you believe) Even after the cosmological events that we measure time by has long since past, we will still have infinity/heat. Without these measurable events we no long have any sense of time... All that is left is infinity.

Again if you believe the infinite is bound by time then please put a measure of time on it...

the reason you can not is "time" is a small measure of infinity, not the other way around.

Ken-1122 · Jun 14, 2011

Elopez
(quote) “Exactly what perimeters am I putting on time?”

(reply) when you say time has a beginning and an ending, those are perimeters.

(quote) “If God has always existed and time has not always existed but is finite and had a beginning, then I do not understand how you can say time can be applied to anything God has ever done. Time is not eternal and nor is the universe.”

(reply) Simply saying so doesn’t make your case. Please explain how the concept of time can’t be applied to the actions of God

(quote) “It's hard to conceive of how it is possible, indeed. It's hard to think of it in terms of our existence so we shouldn't compare it to that. God transcends our existence in every aspect, so while it may not be possible for us or for us to fully grasp I do not think that means it isn't possible for a transcendent being who created the universe.”

(reply) Are you making a claim about an issue you that you don’t even understand?

Drich0150
(quote)” How do we measure time? God existed before these measures were in place, and He will be there after these standards have vanished away.”

Just because humans aren’t around to give it a name doesn’t mean the concept of time can’t be applied to that moment in history. Dinosaurs were around long before humans yet we apply the concept of time to when they roamed the earth.

(quote) “We know that cold is the lack of heat. How do we know that Heat is not the lack of cold? Because their is a temperature in which "cold" can not be measured past.(absolute Zero)….. Time is not infinite because what we measure time by, had a born on date and will eventually have an expiration date. (no matter what you believe)”

(reply) Really! So please give me the date that time was born. If you can’t then your argument fails.

(quote) “Again if you believe the infinite is bound by time then please put a measure of time on it...”

(reply) A measurement of time has boundaries because it starts at one point and ends at another. Time does not have such boundaries.

Ken

drich0150 · Jun 14, 2011

Btodd said:
drich0150 said:

No, otherwise the question would have been, 'what does it mean for anything to be outside of time?'. It was inherent in relation to the concept of God.

Click to expand...

Which is completely relegated to the Op's understanding of God, (via his opening question, and acceptance of God for the sake of this particular argument) and not mine in this instance.

To which, I proceeded to focus on the general understanding of time, up to your first post. At that point you interjected an unfounded supplication pointing to a faith, was not apart of the discussion. That is the whole And Only reason why i pointed to the hypocrisy in your original statement.. (twice)

that you did not have an irreconcilable problem of presenting a problem with no apparent solution, when it comes to your own personal philosophy.

Click to expand...

At this point i do not see a need to discuss anything else until you concede this point.

I could say more but why? What is in it for me? (with you?)

Click to expand...

drich0150 · Jun 14, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Just because humans arent around to give it a name doesnt mean the concept of time cant be applied to that moment in history. Dinosaurs were around long before humans yet we apply the concept of time to when they roamed the earth.

Click to expand...

You are still thinking too small. what about before then? what about before that? and that, and that? What happened before your big bang?

(reply) Really! So please give me the date that time was born. If you cant then your argument fails.

Click to expand...

how so?

In the creation account it started on a very bright and earily Sunday Morning when the Heavens and the earth were separated..

(reply) A measurement of time has boundaries because it starts at one point and ends at another. Time does not have such boundaries.

Click to expand...

What you have described is eternity, not time. Time is measured by celestial events. If not give me an example of common measure of time not related to a celestial even in anyway. "If you can't your argument fails!" Why? Because it shows that time is a finite commodity, one that marks the passing of itself according to how we move around the sun. Once this brief measure of infinity stops, or their is no one left to record it "Time" as we know it stops. what is left is infinity.

Look I know you get the concept by the gist of your argument, you simply will not yield to any definition i represent that you do not have to. I get it and i get why. You asked a question, you have an answer (like it or not) this is why it can be said "God is outside of time." you don't have to agree with it but there it is.

elopez · Jun 14, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
when you say time has a beginning and an ending, those are perimeters.

So you disagree with that notion of time? Of course. How then do you define time? And also, what logical support do you have for the idea of time being eternal and how do you also reconcile that with the support that is present to show that time had a beginning?

Ken-1122 said:
Simply saying so doesnt make your case. Please explain how the concept of time cant be applied to the actions of God.

I have explained it. Time has an origin while God does not. Naturally, time cannot be applied to an eternal God. This explanation no matter how many times repeated will be unconvincing to you however as your view of time is obscured to the infinite.

Ken-1122 said:
Are you making a claim about an issue you that you dont even understand?

No. I am making claims about an issue as far as I understand it.

Btodd · Jun 14, 2011

drich0150 said:
At this point i do not see a need to discuss anything else until you concede this point.

Perhaps you missed my response to that.

Btodd said:
If you want my solution, which is provisional pending reason to think otherwise...is that there may not have been a first cause. And if there were, it wouldn't necessitate God any more than an 'initial condition'.

I am not convinced that there is anything that could be 'outside of time', and therefore the problem would be illusory in the first place.

drich said:
I could say more but why? What is in it for me? (with you?)

Relax, I'm not your arch-nemesis here.

Btodd

spiritman1 · Jun 14, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
So if I understand you correctly, you would say it is possible for God to create something before he even decided to create anything?

Ken

again your stuck in linear thinking as if something has to be before somthing else, God is there at the beginning at the same time He is at the end. we see time as it revolves, we just imagine God is watching our lives unfold, He is and He already has and He's just about to all at the same time.

sandwiches · Jun 14, 2011

Deaver said:
Even though, I have a general understanding of what you are saying, I respectfully disagree and respond with this.

Atheists, those that are skeptical of supernatural claims, cannot understand that to Christians God is incomprehensible. Our finite minds cannot comprehend an infinite and eternal God. Christians cannot explain how it is that God has always existed and He always will. God alone fully understands all things. We need to understand that.

So, God can do things that don't make sense to us or seem illogical?

This is what I love about theism. Everyone has a different view on God and everyone thinks they're right. Not too long ago I was arguing with Christians who were telling me that God is not incomprehensible.

If God can do what's impossible or illogical to us, then I do grant you that God could be eternal without time.

spiritman1 · Jun 14, 2011

sandwiches said:
So, God can do things that don't make sense to us or seem illogical?

This is what I love about theism. Everyone has a different view on God and everyone thinks they're right. Not too long ago I was arguing with Christians who were telling me that God is not incomprehensible.

If God can do what's impossible or illogical to us, then I do grant you that God could be eternal without time.

Actually its really very simple, ask yourself this question, "do you know everything there is to know"?, lets just assume you know half of everything there is to know, couldn't it be possible God and everything about Him is in the half you don't know and understand.......

Resha Caner · Jun 14, 2011

AlexBP said:
It's worth noting that mathematicians can devise as many different types of ordered sets as you want, besides totally ordered sets. Hence many different arrangements of causes and effects are imaginable, besides a linear stream of time.

OK, this sounds cool. If you're still following this thread, Alex, I'd like to hear about one of these different types of ordered sets that could be used to conceive a different cause-effect relationship. If not, maybe I'll bug you with a PM.

jpcedotal · Jun 14, 2011

To me, the Prophet books in the Bible best show the way God sees humanity. Alot of what He says through the prophets deal with "right now", "a little later", and "much later" all in the same passage. Everything is connected and effects everything else...both forward and backward to God.

I mean, Christ dying saved people in both directions in time.

God exists outside of time?

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