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I have a suspicion that the promise-debt relationship is explicitly referred to in scripture, but I couldn't identify the passage - if I am correct.
LOL, is the cat hissing at everyone?Amy said:All right. Fine. All we deserve is death and punishment, we shouldn't even open our mouth to ask for anything, and if we suffer - who cares, that's what we deserve anyway. God doesn't owe us anything good.
I'm glad I've got that straight.
Amy said:All right. Fine. All we deserve is death and punishment, we shouldn't even open our mouth to ask for anything, and if we suffer - who cares, that's what we deserve anyway. God doesn't owe us anything good.
I'm glad I've got that straight.
Amy said:Have you ever heard this beautiful phrase? In a sermon, or from other Christians? "God doesn't owe you anything." What do you think of it?
As to me, my opinion is this: if you don't owe me anything, then don't promise me anything. Don't say, "ask and you shall receive," and that kind of stuff. Because when you do, you DO owe me whatever is promised.
If I tell you, "I will give you a car," and then when you show up at my door and ask for it, I say, "I don't owe you anything" - something is wrong with this picture. Don't you think?...
endure said:well i think you have to realise the meaning behind how its said.
i think he does keep his promises and makes promises for a reason, like amy said.
and he created and was obligated to take care of us to an extent too, like suzannah said.
but i think there is meaning it in some ways of thinking and application, but many people get angry at God when he doesnt please them, people say God should do this and that when he doesnt have to do anything more than what hes already done, and things like that.
also, people kinda think they can come to God and say "YOU OWE ME!" and think they can demand of God in a "you have to serve me" kind of way.
God answers prayers through our faith and love and righteousness, not becuase we can say to him "YOU BETTER KEEP YOUR WORD OR IM GOING TO ACCUSE YOU OF LYING! YOU BETTER!"
but when people think they a have an extra card up their sleeve and will be able to throw it out and kinda win the game agaisnt God...hehe...no .
God keeps his word, but he is King and no one can say unto his creator 'why have you made me this way?" and the bible says we must come to the Lord and fall down upon our faces before our creator...thats not a "you owe me" attitude. God isnt told what to do by anyone.
the moment you step into pride and think your something in yourself and God owes you because of who you are, you sin and God doesnt have to give you anything.
if we say "God owes me" out of the feeling that you dont like being treated a certain way and would hate for God to put you through a certain experience and try to negotiate out of it becuase we are better than that...thats pride, and no he doesnt owe us in that sense.
he doesnt answer prayers becuase he owes us, he answers prayers becuase hes a father and loves us.
in 1 peter the bible says husbands can have their prayers hindered, if they dont love their wives. God wont just answer anyones prayers, you have to love him and serve him and walk according to his will and please him.
the bible says also in proverbs or psalms one, that to the perverse, he will show himself perverse (that not a quote).
if you come to God with a perverted way of thinking and demanding, he will not heed you, and hell let you think hes a very perverse God.
the bible says God resists the proud...
you can come to God in prayer, and ask of him, but he will press you aside and resist you, if you have pride in you.
the bible says he resists evil doers,the bible says hes does not hear sinners.
those are several occasions where God wont answer your prayers, no matter how he created you and is supposed to watch out for you, or how often he said hed answer your prayers.
i dont think we can come with the mindset that we will receive becuase he owes us, because people think the reason he owes us is because of US... becuase we are full of ourselves, and thats pride, and he resists pride, thats the first of seven things he absolutely hates.
ya know what im saying?
Super Gnat said:I think that God *chooses* to owe us. He gave us certain promises, and therefore He will fulfill them. However, He certainly doesn't owe unsaved people anything, and He doesn't owe us whatever we want. Like endure said, mostly when people think God owes them something they're dead wrong. He's not the magical gift-giving genie who exists only to make us happy.
Amy said:Thank you all for your input, it has been very encouraging for me to read your thoughts on this subject. I think I might need to clarify what I meant though, and I will do that using the following example. Suppose there is a Christian family struggling financially - and because of that, spiritually. They pray, and receive no answer. They give their tithe and offerings, and they are still poor as poor can be, and their needs go unmet. I wouldn't call them spoiled brats, you know, for struggling over this and saying, "Hey, hasn't God promised to provide for us? Didn't He say, 'ask and you shall receive'?... Then what on earth is going on?!"
Now, do you think it would be fair to tell this family that God doesn't owe them anything and they shouldn't be upset with Him?
But what Job was going through was a test. A test is a different situation. And in the end God did owe Job for his faithfulness. If Job had gotten angry and stopped serving God, then God wouldn't owe him anything, but as long as Job was fiathful, then God owed him because God's word says that Heis a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. So God owed Job to keep His word.Blanton911 said:well he doesn't owe them financial support. remember job? he was faithful to God and his health, wealth and family were taken away. but because he remained faithful he got it all back, tenfold. The lord gives and the Lord takes away.
God doesn't need anything, nor does He need to do anything. But he LONGS for our love and desire. THAT is why he gives us stuff and promises. But do you think God is gonna give you stuff just because you ask? No... check your heart and where you motivations are.
Amy said:No, of course I don't think that. But I think that when someone is in trouble, like the family I described in my previous post, they NEED to cling to God's promises. And how can you do that if "He doesn't owe you anything"? It almost sounds like, yeah, you can pray all you want, but God doesn't have to listen to you and help you out; he might keep his promise, and he might not. See what I mean?
I think it is the word "owe" that is tripping some people up because some people only have a negative sense of the word or can only think of the word owe in a negative sense. Owe can be a positive word too. When you promise your child a pair of new rollerblades if she brings her D up to an A, don't you owe her those rollerblades if she makes an A? That's not a negative thing, that's a positive Owe. When two people get married and pledge their commitment to each other, don't they owe each other thier love and commitment? That's a positive owe. The husband can't just say "I don't owe you anything." Why did you get married then? You are in a relationship, a covenant, he does owe you something. That's a positive owe. When you make a choice to bring a child into this world, then you owe that child a loving home and food to eat. That's a positive owe. People keep thinking that owe means something negative. It's not negative. God wants to owe us things because of our faithfulness, just like you want to owe your child those rollerblades. Why else would you promise them and then when she gets the A say I don't owe you anything, I'm your mother, I made you I brought you into this world and I can take you out! LOL! How would that sound? You do owe her those rollerblades if she keeps to the terms of your promise and gets that A.Blanton911 said:he wont keep it if you arent faithful perhaps? that family should expect him to keep his promises, not because God owes them anything, but because God said he'd keep them. Its more like we owe him faith than he owes us anything...
Exactly, and when people are weak or not totally convinced that God will give them this or that, the advesry can use that to steal all of the gifts and promises that God has for us. We have to be confident that God does owe what He has promised so that the advesary can't use that unsurity to steal our blessing(keep us from recieving our blessing). When you stand up to the adversary, you have to know with confidence that God will do (owes) what He has promised as long as we are in covenant with Him. Even the bible says that you can't be luke warm and indecisive, you have to pick a side and stand your ground. How can you do that if God doesn't owe you anything? If you don't know if God will really do it or not? LOL! You have to think of it in terms of God owes us what He has promised as long as we are in the right fellowship with Him.Heinrich said:Blanton I don't think Job proves that God takes anything from us. Althought I would like him to take some things away sometimes. And sometimes it's for our own Good.
Remember God loves us and will not do something to hurt us, but our advesary in the world walks around looking for something to steal and someone to kill.
LOL, is the cat hissing at everyone?
Amy said:As to me, my opinion is this: if you don't owe me anything, then don't promise me anything. Don't say, "ask and you shall receive," and that kind of stuff. Because when you do, you DO owe me whatever is promised.
If I tell you, "I will give you a car," and then when you show up at my door and ask for it, I say, "I don't owe you anything" - something is wrong with this picture. Don't you think?...
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