"God doesn't owe you anything" is a destructive doctrine.

BelieveItOarKnot · Oct 9, 2024

Jamdoc said:
-no individuals are identified by name

A true statement

Not one named example out of potentially billions

Jamdoc · Oct 10, 2024

BelieveItOarKnot said:
A true statement

Not one named example out of potentially billions

Well there is one potentially identified.

Judas Iscariot.

Matthew 26

21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

Judas was doing something that had to happen in order for us to be saved, without the death of Jesus, there would be no salvation for anyone as Sin always has to have a cost of death. But he would still be held responsible for his choice to betray Jesus.
and Jesus said it'd be better for him to have never been born than what would happen to him.

You don't say that about someone who's going to end up in heaven.

BelieveItOarKnot · Oct 11, 2024

Jamdoc said:
Well there is one potentially identified.

Judas Iscariot.

The very real problem you will encounter when trying to condemn any Israel person is that both Old and New testaments tell us that they are all God's children.

And when there is an obvious shill on the table, Satan entering Judas, your occasion to pinpoint blame should be very obvious. But see as we all have, present tense have, sin and sin is "of the devil," it's also easy to see why positions can't reconcile the obvious, even when it's set before our eyes to see

David Lamb · Oct 11, 2024

BelieveItOarKnot said:
The very real problem you will encounter when trying to condemn any Israel person is that both Old and New testaments tell us that they are all God's children.

Yet Jesus said to some Jews:

“"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” (Joh 8:44 NKJV)

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Oct 11, 2024

Jamdoc said:
Scripture says He bore the sins of the world, like the gift of salvation is available to anyone who will accept it, but not everyone does. Some people just don't believe it can be true.
Others would rather God judge them on their own merit out of pride (Muslims for instance)
It is not a gift automatically forced on you, Jesus said that those who believe are not condemned but get eternal life, and those who do not believe are condemned already.
Jesus sacrifice COULD atone for everyone... if they'd believe. It's not as Calvinists say and that there's a limit.

If Jesus did indeed die for and pay the debt of all mankind then the debt is paid. I have heard it said it’s like having a credit card debt you could never pay.

Jesus paid that debt and offers that paid debt to be received as a gift and all you have to do is accept it.

Well, that is indeed a gift for sure but whether you accept it or not your debt has been paid. You may continue to labor to pay for your debt all you want.

Toil away … waste your life in fruitless labor … carry the burden of that debt to your grave and you will have forfeited the abundant life you may have enjoyed.

In the end, all men will give an accounting of their lives and will be judged by the Righteous Judge of all the earth.

BelieveItOarKnot · Oct 11, 2024

David Lamb said:
Yet Jesus said to some Jews:

“"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” (Joh 8:44 NKJV)

Jesus spoke to devils and Satan in people all the time

It is impossible that the pharisees were devils. All the people of Israel are taught in the O.T. and the N.T. to be God's children. So, devils? Nope!

It is entirely possible that Mark 4:15 happened to them, just like it happens to us all

Jamdoc · Oct 11, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
If Jesus did indeed die for and pay the debt of all mankind then the debt is paid. I have heard it said it’s like having a credit card debt you could never pay.

Jesus paid that debt and offers that paid debt to be received as a gift and all you have to do is accept it.

Well, that is indeed a gift for sure but whether you accept it or not your debt has been paid. You may continue to labor to pay for your debt all you want.

Toil away … waste your life in fruitless labor … carry the burden of that debt to your grave and you will have forfeited the abundant life you may have enjoyed.

In the end, all men will give an accounting of their lives and will be judged by the Righteous Judge of all the earth.

You forget the second half of that, that those who do not believe are condemned already.
God does not force belief.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Oct 12, 2024

Jamdoc said:
You forget the second half of that, that those who do not believe are condemned already.
God does not force belief.

Hi Jamdoc. I’m not sure what “second half” you are referring to? I didn’t quote any Scripture? Mostly I was pointing out, in the analogy I used, that is spurious at best, that the sacrifice of Jesus did, not could, atone for everyone.

Now, if you were referring to John 3:18, the analogy does touch on that and I would be in agreement with you. Living in a state of unbelief is indeed living as one who is already judged. It’s how man has been living since their banishment from the Garden of Eden.

Finally, I never said anything about God forcing anyone to believe. When the Holy Spirit of God regenerates the heart of man and reveals the depth of God’s manifestation of His love in the Person and sacrifice of Jesus, no forcing is necessary.

blessings

”he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.“
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭18‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

John 3:18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. | Young's Literal Translation 1898 (YLT98) | Download The Bible App No

he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

bible.com

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
If Jesus did indeed die for and pay the debt of all mankind then the debt is paid. I have heard it said it’s like having a credit card debt you could never pay.

Jesus paid that debt and offers that paid debt to be received as a gift and all you have to do is accept it.

Well, that is indeed a gift for sure but whether you accept it or not your debt has been paid. You may continue to labor to pay for your debt all you want.

Toil away … waste your life in fruitless labor … carry the burden of that debt to your grave and you will have forfeited the abundant life you may have enjoyed.

In the end, all men will give an accounting of their lives and will be judged by the Righteous Judge of all the earth.

BelieveItOarKnot · Oct 12, 2024

Jamdoc said:
You forget the second half of that, that those who do not believe are condemned already.
God does not force belief.

Another positional fallacy

The entirety of the Bible is about God showing up to people in various ways, which alone forces belief.

Striking Saul down on the road to Damascus forced belief. And not allowing other people present with him to hear is the opposite. Leaving them locked into unbelief.

Positions that worship personal choices are way off base. God can show up anytime, and force the whole world to believe. And maybe that's exactly what He has already been doing, if you really believe

"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God."

At least give God some credit

BelieveItOarKnot · Oct 12, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
In the end, all men will give an accounting of their lives and will be judged by the Righteous Judge of all the earth.

Both good and bad will be found within everyone. No exceptions.

God has basically forced everyone into falling before His Mercy Seat

I'm hoping for a quick burn off myself, maybe even shoving some of that bad stuff in front of me early to get it over with. The more we lie about it, the more hypocrisy we cloak ourselves in, the deeper it burrows and hides itself in us.

When we all stand before God in judgment, the enemy that we have all borne in our own minds will also be judged. Just as many parables and outright scripture statements propose.

Why most believers think they will only be found good and their neighbors, not, is somewhat ridiculous.

Good and bad will rise from the dust of our own bodies, unto judgment, in both directions.

In this way every person is contributing to the final JUDGMENT OF OUR ENEMIES, cough cough

the Devil and his messengers

Jamdoc · Oct 12, 2024

Well if you want to wear a blindfold to the overwhelming evidence that there is a final judgement and that there are people who do get condemned in that final judgement you go ahead I suppose but that's not biblical.

BelieveItOarKnot · Oct 12, 2024

Jamdoc said:
and that there are people who do get condemned

Newsflash: The evil within everyone is condemned

Diamond72 · Oct 12, 2024

HarleyER said:
God isn't here to "get worshiped".

There is nothing better than to worship God with our brothers and sisters in the Lord. It is not for His sake that we worship Him. This puts us in alignment with Him and we are the ones that benifit.

Diamond72 · Oct 13, 2024

Jamdoc said:
Well if you want to wear a blindfold to the overwhelming evidence that there is a final judgement

The "evidence" is that God is a God of absolute Justice. His scales of justice are as accurate and precise at the universe. As we all know math and physics are very exact and very precise. This is why Jesus went to Calvary for us.

Jamdoc · Oct 13, 2024

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Newsflash: The evil within everyone is condemned

No there are actual people who are condemned. Jesus said some are resurrected to life, others to the resurrection of damnation.

Diamond72 · Oct 13, 2024

Jamdoc said:
resurrection of damnation.

People sin in their body so God has to reunite them with their body in order to judge them.

BelieveItOarKnot · Oct 13, 2024

Jamdoc said:
No there are actual people who are condemned. Jesus said some are resurrected to life, others to the resurrection of damnation.

As stated prior, a long held position of Orthodoxy, and a rightful position is that there is no named person who can be definitely stated to be in hell/the LoF now or in the future

For the devil and his messengers, assuredly. Ample scriptural statements

And since these parties work "in mankind" our collective judgments on these subjects is skewered

IF a believer who is also a sinner counts sins against another they are merely condemning themselves in the process.

God is not a double dealer

The tempter and his own in everyone is condemned and awaiting final separation from mankind, ala Matt. 25, and these then being sent to the flames

One might consider these things before leaping headlong into the judgment of other people

All have sin, Romans 3:9. We are no better

and sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

But far be it from me to lay out the basis of loving our neighbors as ourselves AND maintaining sound judgments against our mutual adversaries

Jamdoc · Oct 13, 2024

Diamond72 said:
People sin in their body so God has to reunite them with their body in order to judge them.

Correct, but that judgement in that resurrection is damnation, not "oh you go to heaven too even though you were a Muslim"

Jamdoc · Oct 13, 2024

Diamond72 said:
There is nothing better than to worship God with our brothers and sisters in the Lord. It is not for His sake that we worship Him. This puts us in alignment with Him and we are the ones that benifit.

Statements like this is why this thread exists.
Because people seem to be okay with God changing His mind and not delivering on His promises and just extending Revelation 4, 5 and 7's praising around the throne eternally.

Let me ask you
If God promises things and renegs on them doesn't that make Him less worthy of praise?
Doesn't that make God a swindler, if He bait and switches, promises one thing then changes it out for something else?

Should we not hold God to honor His promises because if He is not faithful then who is He?

Diamond72 · Oct 13, 2024

Jamdoc said:
If God promises things and renegs on them

God always does what He says He is going to do. He declares the end from the beginning and He watches over His word to perform what He says He will do.

Isaiah 46:10: "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'"
Jeremiah 1:12: "The Lord said to me, 'You have seen correctly, for I am watching to see that my word is fulfilled.'"
Numbers 23:19: "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"

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