God as a Father

[Charles Darwin]

This topic is exactly what it says, but not in terms of humanity but Jesus Christ in particular.

The strangest, weirdest, most peculiar part of christianity to me is how a great being (Father) saracficing his son, makes me clean?

Frankly, it would scare the **** outta me to bow down to a being who would so readily throw down his own son's life. And yes i know "b/c he cares about us that much... blah blah blah" but doesnt he teach that all individuals are special and to love each other is one of the greatest things we can do in his eyes? To relate to such a callous individual as God is just beyond comprehension to me.

So to break it down:

How does a divine Father killing his son have any effect on me?
How can he be so frivilous with his sons life?
How the hell is his killing his son supposed to make me want to follow him?

 

[Chilldogg77]

That's a good question, chuck. It all started with original sin. There is something about sin that is so fundamentally disgusting and abominable that caused the sin of our ancestors to affect the reality of all of their descendants. In order to have union with God we must be made perfect, or at least free from the impurity of sin. We are not born in such a position. We can't get there by our selves. We need a savior. Now there are two things about God that are important to remember. He's just, and he's merciful. So God sees this sin, and our impure conditions. God cannot have something impure in perfect union with him. So the existence of this sin prevents our union with God. At the crucifixion, Jesus took the punishment for us, and took away our sins. The Father did not kill the son. He did allow us to kill his son. Imagine loving someone 1000 times more than you can imagine loving someone. Now imagine loving someone else so much that you're willing to let that person suffer and die on a cross, and take the punishment they justly deserve so that you can be with them. It was not frivalous. That is how that is supposed to make you want to follow him. Because he loves you that much. I don't expect you to believe this, I'd discuss other things if I wanted to convice you that Christianity is valid. But I hope you see that it is a coherent ideology.

 

[Hezmasaveyour]

Well for one thing , God didnt necessarily kill His Son . He allowed Him to be killed in order for us to be able to go to Heaven . For one thing, Jesus was raised again.

Let me try to put it as a speaker recently said it : When God created man, He knew that we would stray .Thus He told Jesus that He would have to come get us and make us way for us to come back to God , because we were separated from the perfect fellowship when Adam and Eve sinned.

Jesus loves us so much that He came down and did that.He is God.He didnt have to do it.

On the subject of how Him dying would save you, in the early Bible days , blood had to be shed for the forgiveness of sins . When Jesus came and died, He bore all of our sins , and shed the blood to take care of all of our sins past , present , and future.

 

[Godzman]

This topic is exactly what it says, but not in terms of humanity but Jesus Christ in particular.

The strangest, weirdest, most peculiar part of christianity to me is how a great being (Father) saracficing his son, makes me clean?

Frankly, it would scare the **** outta me to bow down to a being who would so readily throw down his own son's life. And yes i know "b/c he cares about us that much... blah blah blah" but doesnt he teach that all individuals are special and to love each other is one of the greatest things we can do in his eyes? To relate to such a callous individual as God is just beyond comprehension to me.

So to break it down:

How does a divine Father killing his son have any effect on me?
How can he be so frivilous with his sons life?
How the hell is his killing his son supposed to make me want to follow him?

well since the trinity is one, it was God being made man, even though it is a mystery the trinity, we still understand that God sacrificed himself for us.

 

[Ampmonster]

please read the bible. you'll understand it so much better. many people take the surface view and it looks very strange and contradictory, but on deeper understanding and more importantly, application, of it, it will makes profound, beautiful, sublime sense.

 

[Lady Fatima]

Peace,

well since the trinity is one, it was God being made man, even though it is a mystery the trinity, we still understand that God sacrificed himself for us.

What baffles me is the belief that in order to be forgiven of your sins, bloodletting needs to take place. As a Muslim, my religion teaches me that one needs to repent with sincerity for God to pardon their sins. The notion of the crucifixion, the act of shedding blood, presents God as a murderous deity to say in the least.

That's a good question, chuck. It all started with original sin

Now here is a concept that I cannot agree with. The concept of the original sin goes against the teachings of the justice of God. To claim that an innocent baby inherits the sin of his/her forefathers is to claim that God is unjust to His creations. Allah says in the Quran:

"Every soul draws the meed of his own acts on none but himself: NO bearer of burden can bear the burden of another." (6:164)

In contrast to the Christian teaching that human nature is basically evil [owing to the Original Sin], Islam teaches that it is essentially good. There are many elements to Human nature and each one has the potential to bring benefits. So there is no "Original Sin" in Islam. It is that when Man contradicts God’s commandments or His will, he commits sins.

Adam committed such a sin, which led to his expulsion from the Garden of Eden. But Adam repented and prayed to God for forgiveness, which God granted him, as mentioned in the following in Surah 2, verse 37:

"Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord turned towards him; for He is Oft-returning, Most Merciful."

This means that unlike Christianity, which teaches that all the children of Adam are sinful for Adam’s sin, Islam teaches that all humans are innocent by birth and they become sinful only when they consciously commit a sin. Islam regards the concept of “original sin” and the need for atonement by God Himself - via dying on the Cross - as a pure invention of those who came after Jesus Christ, declaring themselves as Christians.

Another important point to bear in mind about the Islamic concept of sin is that one man’s sin cannot be transferred to another; nor can the reward due to a person be transferred either. Every individual is responsible only for his or her actions, for God is never unjust. This is made clear in the following in Surah 17, verse 25:

"Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger [to give warning]"

Every individual is an independent person who is responsible for his or her actions alone. There is no need for salvation from sin, for there is no original burden. One's success in the Hereafter lies in his living a righteous life in this world. Each has to build his/her own Heaven, avoiding the misery of Hell. Faith is important, but faith alone without deeds will be fruitless.

And Allah knows best!

 

[MoonlessNight]

Actually, the biggest problem that I have with the incarnation but the only thing that even makes me consider it anymore is the Aquinas's Summa Theologica. He argues that God could have done away with sin at any time without incarnating into human form (as Jesus) and then sacrificing himself, but to do it in this manner would cause the most good. Most of the reasons for why it was good were that be seeing that God became human and sacrificed himself, humanity can see God's love and also the dignity of the human form. There's some truth to the argument (Chrisitanity certainly is a succesful religion).

I didn't find the argument entirely convincing, but it causes me to at least consider the doctrine, which is something I never did before.

 

[Nathan David]

please read the bible. you'll understand it so much better.

Why are you assuming Charles hasn't read the Bible? I've read it, and it still doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Havoc]

God made the system which required His Son to be killed. If this was a case of law the crime would be "Conspiracy to commit murder".

God could have chosen any system he wanted, there are many examples of possible systems which do not require human or godly sacrifice, and which do not condemn people to hell. He chose this one.

 

[water_ripple]

This topic is exactly what it says, but not in terms of humanity but Jesus Christ in particular.

The strangest, weirdest, most peculiar part of christianity to me is how a great being (Father) saracficing his son, makes me clean?

Frankly, it would scare the **** outta me to bow down to a being who would so readily throw down his own son's life. And yes i know "b/c he cares about us that much... blah blah blah" but doesnt he teach that all individuals are special and to love each other is one of the greatest things we can do in his eyes? To relate to such a callous individual as God is just beyond comprehension to me.

So to break it down:

How does a divine Father killing his son have any effect on me?
How can he be so frivilous with his sons life?
How the hell is his killing his son supposed to make me want to follow him?

For no greater love is there than this to lay down one's life for his friends..The trinity is about what humans percieve as different personalities of God when infact He is only one entity...God sacraficed Himself for us. God is one entity and Christ is God. Christ was also the Son of Man..God in the flesh. Not above, but one...The Spirit is the same. The shell that Christ lived in while here was what connected Him physically to us. His Spirit is what connected us with God. Christ is the Alpha and Omega..the beginning and the end..not a length of time, but a measure of eternity..He saw all of us before we were born, and His eternity is the same as God's eternity..they are one not one, two, three.

"How the *hell* is his killing his son supposed to make me want to follow him?" Please do not use ** in this context or this will probably be the next word to be censored.

 

[secretdawn]

Peace,



What baffles me is the belief that in order to be forgiven of your sins, bloodletting needs to take place. As a Muslim, my religion teaches me that one needs to repent with sincerity for God to pardon their sins. The notion of the crucifixion, the act of shedding blood, presents God as a murderous deity to say in the least.



Now here is a concept that I cannot agree with. The concept of the original sin goes against the teachings of the justice of God. To claim that an innocent baby inherits the sin of his/her forefathers is to claim that God is unjust to His creations. Allah says in the Quran:

"Every soul draws the meed of his own acts on none but himself: NO bearer of burden can bear the burden of another." (6:164)

In contrast to the Christian teaching that human nature is basically evil [owing to the Original Sin], Islam teaches that it is essentially good. There are many elements to Human nature and each one has the potential to bring benefits. So there is no "Original Sin" in Islam. It is that when Man contradicts God’s commandments or His will, he commits sins.

Adam committed such a sin, which led to his expulsion from the Garden of Eden. But Adam repented and prayed to God for forgiveness, which God granted him, as mentioned in the following in Surah 2, verse 37:

"Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord turned towards him; for He is Oft-returning, Most Merciful."

This means that unlike Christianity, which teaches that all the children of Adam are sinful for Adam’s sin, Islam teaches that all humans are innocent by birth and they become sinful only when they consciously commit a sin. Islam regards the concept of “original sin” and the need for atonement by God Himself - via dying on the Cross - as a pure invention of those who came after Jesus Christ, declaring themselves as Christians.

Another important point to bear in mind about the Islamic concept of sin is that one man’s sin cannot be transferred to another; nor can the reward due to a person be transferred either. Every individual is responsible only for his or her actions, for God is never unjust. This is made clear in the following in Surah 17, verse 25:

"Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger [to give warning]"

Every individual is an independent person who is responsible for his or her actions alone. There is no need for salvation from sin, for there is no original burden. One's success in the Hereafter lies in his living a righteous life in this world. Each has to build his/her own Heaven, avoiding the misery of Hell. Faith is important, but faith alone without deeds will be fruitless.

And Allah knows best!

I think the sacrifice of Jesus is representitive of the sacrifices made in the old testement. Jesus was the final sacrifice. And I don't know a lot about the Muslim religion, so please take this as an honest question...I would like to be better informed, but...isn't there much more bloodshed in your religion, in the family. Doesn't the Muslim religion kill family members for dishonoring them. Please tell me if I am wrong, because I think you know better than I do how misrepresented the Muslim religion is.

 

[Pooty]

It sure did take God a while to want to save his people. There's all that time in between where people adhere all of these strict laws imposed by God and yet still have sin. And yet he waits. And has something done that's way over- elaborate. It's not really much of a sacrafice if the person is immortal, now is it? God didn't lose anything, Jesus returned to him a short time after the crucifixion.

 

[water_ripple]

It sure did take God a while to want to save his people. There's all that time in between where people adhere all of these strict laws imposed by God and yet still have sin. And yet he waits. And has something done that's way over- elaborate. It's not really much of a sacrafice if the person is immortal, now is it? God didn't lose anything, Jesus returned to him a short time after the crucifixion.

If the sacrafice had come before what had happened in the OT humankind would not have understood what was going on. It took a while because people can only learn so fast. Look how long it took us to "invent" electricity when infact it has always been...It is a great sacrafice to sacrafice yourself so that everybody will have a chance. They might not take you up on that chance, but for those who will that is the greatest sacrafice there is.

 

[BInC]

...It's not really much of a sacrafice if the person is immortal, now is it?...

Not much of a sacrafice? Why don't you visit hell, for any amount of time, to pay for sins you didn't commit. Then come back and tell me how much of a sacrafice that is.

 

[Pooty]

Obviously if you were God you wouldn't have a problem with hell, would you? Since after all, you created the place.

 

[BInC]

Obviously if you were God you wouldn't have a problem with hell, would you? Since after all, you created the place.

This is an honest question: Have you read the Bible?

The Bible says the God made Jesus completely human. That is the reason he was able to take on our sins. He was made completely human so he could see the world as we do and face the same temptations. The Bible says that when Jesus was tempted in the desert, he refused Satan's tempting to jump off a cliff and have angels save him. He refused to call on divine help like that. I think being completly human in hell, but knowing that at your call you would be rescued by a force of angel, and still enduring it, would be even worse. Knowing you could leave, and not doing it untill your allotted time was up, would be unbareable for me and you.

 

[Charles Darwin]

Yes but if Jesus was so holy as to ascend to the right hand of the Father, why would be even be in hell at all? so i can support his questioning the real value of offering something you know will return unscathed

 

[Lady Fatima]

Doesn't the Muslim religion kill family members for dishonoring them. Please tell me if I am wrong, because I think you know better than I do how misrepresented the Muslim religion is.

In Islam, there's no such thing as "honoury killings". Perhaps your confusing culture with religion?

 

[Pooty]

Charles gets it. Reguardless of where Jesus went. He would come back. And what makes you think I haven't read the Bible? Does it NOT say that Jesus WAS God? I'm pretty sure it DOES.

I could see if Jesus was going to be in hell forever. But three days is a LOT less than eternity.

 

[Havoc]

The whole concept is rather wasteful anyways. Why not just change the system if you created it so flawed to begin with?