God, animals, and suffering

[Nihilist Virus]

Why do we have empathy for animals?

The Old Testament regards animals as little more than sacrificial objects. The New Testament says little about animals but focuses on the newly revealed concepts of heaven, hell, and spirituality - none of which involve animals. Thus the New Testament indirectly depicts animals as soulless creatures.

Why were we created to have empathy for soulless sacrificial objects?

If I were to venture a guess, it would be the following:

Animals experience pain as a necessary survival mechanism. Animals must exist to comprise the biosphere. Therfore, animals experiencing pain is necessary. We feel empathy for creatures experiencing pain.

First, pain is not the entirety of an animal's bad experiences. Mammals experience sadness, starvation, discomfort, loneliness, frustration, and anger - just to name a few. Most animals that have ever lived died in painful, horrific, agonizing terror. Is all of that actually necessary? Is there truly not a more merciful way to have a biosphere?

Second, the idea of free will, if it exists and is even coherent, is clearly inapplicable to animals on Christian theology. So how, then, is it better for animals to have these types of lives rather than to live as, more or less, animated objects with no subjective experiences? Why can't they just exist as fleshy robots? Would that not maximize their survivability more than pain and misery? Further, God could have included the imperative, "Do no harm to humans." After all, God promised man dominion over animals. Wouldn't that state of affairs be strong evidence for theism?

I find that the natural world absolutely does not reflect a benevolent creator. Animals did not sin in that garden - unless you infer that the serpent was really just a serpent... that could talk - and since the animals did not sin in any form it is simply malicious to needlessly endow them with great capacities to suffer.

 

[mmksparbud]

Sin came upon the whole world, land, water, plants, ---all creation. Everything was touched by it. Our very DNA is now contaminated with all sorts of anomalies---it will take God to cleanse it all again and renew everything. It will be perfect again when sin is obliterated.

 

[Nithavela]

Sin came upon the whole world, land, water, plants, ---all creation. Everything was touched by it. Our very DNA is now contaminated with all sorts of anomalies---it will take God to cleanse it all again and renew everything. It will be perfect again when sin is obliterated.

Do you think that human empathy for animals is an imperfection and that humans without any empathy for animals are closer to ideal?

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you think that human empathy for animals is an imperfection and that humans without any empathy for animals are closer to ideal?

And who said that this is an ideal world?? That will come later.

 

[Nithavela]

And who said that this is an ideal world?? That will come later.

This doesn't answer my question at all. Want to try again?

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you think that human empathy for animals is an imperfection and that humans without any empathy for animals are closer to ideal?

No, I do not. The Jews when they had to sacrifice a lamb, took it into their homes, and hand raised it. You get very attached to them, esp. the children. It hurt to have to sacrifice it. It made the enormity of the sacrifice that much more relevant. That is the price of sin. It hurt God to have to give up His Son. At creation Adam and Eve were to take care of the plants and animals. There was no death. animals were all vegetarian as were Adam and Eve. That is the ideal. The new earth will again have no death, back to ideal.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

No, I do not. The Jews when they had to sacrifice a lamb, took it into their homes, and hand raised it. You get very attached to them, esp. the children. It hurt to have to sacrifice it. It made the enormity of the sacrifice that much more relevant. That is the price of sin. It hurt God to have to give up His Son. At creation Adam and Eve were to take care of the plants and animals. There was no death. animals were all vegetarian as were Adam and Eve. That is the ideal. The new earth will again have no death, back to ideal.

Wow, it sure would have been a better idea to create humans with the free will to sin but without any inclination to sin...

 

[CrystalDragon]

Why do we have empathy for animals?

The Old Testament regards animals as little more than sacrificial objects. The New Testament says little about animals but focuses on the newly revealed concepts of heaven, hell, and spirituality - none of which involve animals. Thus the New Testament indirectly depicts animals as soulless creatures.

Why were we created to have empathy for soulless sacrificial objects?

If I were to venture a guess, it would be the following:

Animals experience pain as a necessary survival mechanism. Animals must exist to comprise the biosphere. Therfore, animals experiencing pain is necessary. We feel empathy for creatures experiencing pain.

First, pain is not the entirety of an animal's bad experiences. Mammals experience sadness, starvation, discomfort, loneliness, frustration, and anger - just to name a few. Most animals that have ever lived died in painful, horrific, agonizing terror. Is all of that actually necessary? Is there truly not a more merciful way to have a biosphere?

Second, the idea of free will, if it exists and is even coherent, is clearly inapplicable to animals on Christian theology. So how, then, is it better for animals to have these types of lives rather than to live as, more or less, animated objects with no subjective experiences? Why can't they just exist as fleshy robots? Would that not maximize their survivability more than pain and misery? Further, God could have included the imperative, "Do no harm to humans." After all, God promised man dominion over animals. Wouldn't that state of affairs be strong evidence for theism?

I find that the natural world absolutely does not reflect a benevolent creator. Animals did not sin in that garden - unless you infer that the serpent was really just a serpent... that could talk - and since the animals did not sin in any form it is simply malicious to needlessly endow them with great capacities to suffer.

If animals are supposed to be soulless, then Heaven won't really be Heaven.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Sin came upon the whole world, land, water, plants, ---all creation. Everything was touched by it. Our very DNA is now contaminated with all sorts of anomalies---it will take God to cleanse it all again and renew everything. It will be perfect again when sin is obliterated.

That is nonsensical on what I take to be your theology. Accept my apologies for saddling you with things you haven't said, but if you believe that God intelligently designed DNA, that DNA was inexplicably modified by sin entering the world, and that DNA is intelligently designed in its current form then it follows that you believe sin - an unintelligent, undirected, undefined, abstract notion - can intelligently design DNA or intelligently modify pre-existing DNA.

Many Christians don't even believe that sin properly exists but rather is the lack of holiness. I don't even know how else to define it and it certainly does not appear to be a thing that exists in any physical or metaphysical sense. In many ways sin is barely distinguishable from nothing.

So I find it bizarre, to say the least, that Christians ridicule "design from nothing" while advocating "design from sin."

 

[Nithavela]

If animals are supposed to be soulless, then Heaven won't really be Heaven.

 

[mmksparbud]

Wow, it sure would have been a better idea to create humans with the free will to sin but without any inclination to sin...

God did not want robots, free will means they have the capacity to sin, otherwise it is not free will.

 

[mmksparbud]

That is nonsensical on what I take to be your theology. Accept my apologies for saddling you with things you haven't said, but if you believe that God intelligently designed DNA, that DNA was inexplicably modified by sin entering the world, and that DNA is intelligently designed in its current form then it follows that you believe sin - an unintelligent, undirected, undefined, abstract notion - can intelligently design DNA or intelligently modify pre-existing DNA.

Many Christians don't even believe that sin properly exists but rather is the lack of holiness. I don't even know how else to define it and it certainly does not appear to be a thing that exists in any physical or metaphysical sense. In many ways sin is barely distinguishable from nothing.

So I find it bizarre, to say the least, that Christians ridicule "design from nothing" while advocating "design from sin."

No, that is not anywhere near to what I said. DNA can not be intelligent as we know it. But there are changes to it that came about because imperfections were now allowed to develop that had no chance to develop before.

 

[mmksparbud]

If animals are supposed to be soulless, then Heaven won't really be Heaven.

It is the presence of God and Jesus that make heaven, heaven. I have no clear indication of Jesus having died for the souls of animals, however, He died to save mankind, and to return creation to perfection. That the lion will lay down with the lamb means obviously, it's not going to be lunch. The same breath from God that gave us life is the same breath that gave life to animals---so I don't know about our pets going to heaven or not. I sure want to have my former pets around me. I loved them dearly, but nothing is stated either way.

 

[Nithavela]

God did not want robots, free will means they have the capacity to sin, otherwise it is not free will.

Many christians believe that god is always "in control" and nothing on earth happens without his consent (like, for example, a president getting elected).

How does that work with free will, in your opinion?

 

[mmksparbud]

Many christians believe that god is always "in control" and nothing on earth happens without his consent (like, for example, a president getting elected).

How does that work with free will, in your opinion?

In my opinion, being the operative word. I do not believe that everything works out for the best. I believe God makes the best out of every situation. He has the long term knowledge, not just the short term. I do not believe He forces person A to sleep with person B in order to have person C who turns out to be a serial killer, deformed, or mentally retarded. He knows what will happen if A and B produce a child, He does not force them to do so. it does say He puts into power whomsoever He will. As to whether He actually does it or allows it we do not know for sure. I don't believe He forced Trump to run for president, but He knew who would win.

 

[Nithavela]

In my opinion, being the operative word. I do not believe that everything works out for the best. I believe God makes the best out of every situation. He has the long term knowledge, not just the short term. I do not believe He forces person A to sleep with person B in order to have person C who turns out to be a serial killer, deformed, or mentally retarded. He knows what will happen if A and B produce a child, He does not force them to do so. it does say He puts into power whomsoever He will. As to whether He actually does it or allows it we do not know for sure. I don't believe He forced Trump to run for president, but He knew who would win.

He told a lot of republicans to run for president. He tends to do this every election, or so they say.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

God did not want robots, free will means they have the capacity to sin, otherwise it is not free will.

Will we be robots in heaven or will we have the capacity to sin?

No, that is not anywhere near to what I said. DNA can not be intelligent as we know it. But there are changes to it that came about because imperfections were now allowed to develop that had no chance to develop before.

How can DNA be intelligent? I was discussing whether it is intelligently designed. Did you even read what I said?

 

[mmksparbud]

How can DNA be intelligent? I was discussing whether it is intelligently designed. Did you even read what I said?

Sorry, I sis misread that. The original was intelligently designed. Like I said, however, perfection is no longer a possibility, so imperfections have crept in.

Will we be robots in heaven or will we have the capacity to sin?

No, we will not be robot. But Jesus will forever bear the scars of His crucifixion and the sight of those will forever tell us the price hat was paid for sin and we will choose not to sin anymore.

 

[ChetSinger]

I find that the natural world absolutely does not reflect a benevolent creator. Animals did not sin in that garden - unless you infer that the serpent was really just a serpent... that could talk - and since the animals did not sin in any form it is simply malicious to needlessly endow them with great capacities to suffer.

I think it's originally our fault that animals now suffer the way they do. They, along with the rest of the earth, were placed under our jurisdiction and after we fell they began sharing our pain. Paul writes that all of the creation that was placed under us is eagerly waiting for this age to end so that it will no longer be subject to decay and death. Here it is, in Romans 8:

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Sorry, I sis misread that. The original was intelligently designed. Like I said, however, perfection is no longer a possibility, so imperfections have crept in.



No, we will not be robot. But Jesus will forever bear the scars of His crucifixion and the sight of those will forever tell us the price hat was paid for sin and we will choose not to sin anymore.

Your answers are quite inadequate. You leave obvious followup questions totally unaddressed.