God and sin

Chriliman said:

Agreed. Imagining a hypothetically bad situation can help us prevent the situation from happening. This is the point I'm trying to make, imagination is useful and should not be viewed in a negative way. When someone lets their imagination get the best of them and they begin to act psychotically, then we have a problem.

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Would imagining a relationship with an invisible being qualify as problematic?

Chriliman said:

The Christian belief and my belief is that this is where the Holy Spirit will guide our actions. If we submit to God, His Spirit will guide our actions and even in a horrible situation the outcome will be good. Someone who relies on their own moral compass will undoubtably make wrong decisions that might result in further harm. This is why the belief that there is a correct action for every situation is important, however, the correct action can only come from God.

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So you're saying that what you mean by, 'When you know something is wrong' is, 'When you know something is contrary to God's command' (the tenets of Christian morality), regardless of your personal moral compass, yes?

You don't have to agree with this, just try to understand.

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Naturally, being an atheist, I don't agree with it, but I am trying to understand; I find your responses to what seem reasonably straight-forward questions rather opaque.

E.T.A.
If you can't rely on your personal moral compass and should let the Holy Spirit guide you, how do you distinguish between the Holy Spirit guiding your actions, and your personal moral compass, and what is simply wrong?

I'm thinking of a situation where your personal moral compass tells you one action is right, but you do something else because you think the Holy Spirit is guiding you; how do you know you are not mistaken and that the action isn't wrong, when your personal moral compass tells you it is?

It seems to me likely that you have more chance of making a wrong decision if you ignore your personal moral compass than if you don't...

david rodriguez said:

If God punishes sin and I will always be a sinner, being a Christian or not, I will always be punished.

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I think your question misunderstands God. First, believers who except salvation through Jesus Christ are not sinners. They were sinners, but now they are saints. Being a sinner and sinning are not the same thing. Being a sinner refers to the fallen nature of man. Sin is an action under the law. In the regeneration we have a new nature, which is Christ's. Adam and Eve were created perfect, yet they sinned. They became sinners when they sinned and their perfect nature was changed into a sinner's nature. That does not happen to believers. We may sin by an action, but our nature does not change. Adam's perfect nature was not the divine nature. Believers in Jesus become partakers of the divine nature which can not change. This nature is in our spirits which have been born again. However, our souls and bodies have not yet changed. We can modify our souls by renewing our minds, and we can use our bodies as vessels of righteousness, but choosing to sin does not change the divine nature that has transformed our spirits which have been sealed by His Spirit.

Furthermore, your question begins in the law, not grace. We have been reconciled to God through Christ and are not under the law. Indeed, gentiles were never under the law. The law was given by God only to Israel to magnify sin to show the folly of self righteousness and to show the need for a Saviour. Until Moses there was no law, nevertheless death reigned. That means that sin exists, but God did not impute sin until the Mosaic law. Under Christ the penalty of death has been paid. God does not impute sin to the believer even though sin may exist.

Second, God is not punishing sin. Sin is its own punishment. Chastisement of believers is correction, not punishment. God came to restore life, not destroy life. It is a mistake to look upon Old Testament saints and make them equal to New Testament believers. They are not equal. Jesus said that John the Baptist (an Old Testament saint, as was Jesus) was the greatest of all OT prophets, nonetheless the least in the Kingdom of God (NT saints) is greater than John. Why? Because the OT saints did not have the permanent regeneration of the resurrection. John had the Holy Spirit from birth, but could not participate in the resurrection of Christ since he died before the resurrection. Likewise, Heb 11 states that the OT saints died waiting for the promise of the better thing provided for us. God does not change, but he does change the way he deals with people.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

So you're saying that what you mean by, 'When you know something is wrong' is, 'When you know something is contrary to God's command' (the tenets of Christian morality), regardless of your personal moral compass, yes?

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I believe morality comes from God and that morality is objective. My hope is that my personal moral compass is inline with God's objective morality and I ask God to help me to do the right thing everyday.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

E.T.A.
If you can't rely on your personal moral compass and should let the Holy Spirit guide you, how do you distinguish between the Holy Spirit guiding your actions, and your personal moral compass, and what is simply wrong?

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As Christians our hope and prayer is that God would guide us in all we do. It's all about trusting in God with our lives and not trusting ourselves. Sorry if this answer is too vague for you.

Davian said:

How does the Christian God punish those that consider it fiction?

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the same way the IRS punishes those who consider them fiction.

Colter said:

What is a sin anyway?

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There are several definitions. It is the sum of all of them.

Sin is disobedience to God's commands.
Sin falling short of God's glory in any way.
Sin is doing anything apart from biblical faith.
Sin is knowing the right thing to do or think of feel and NOT doing that.

david rodriguez said:

If God punishes sin and I will always be a sinner, being a Christian or not, I will always be punished.

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This statement ignores the reality of forgiveness and mercy.

Chriliman said:

Even our imaginations have a real effect on reality. Wouldn't this mean our imaginations are a part of our reality?

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Indeed. I do not dispute the effects of placebos, nocebos, illusions, or hallucinations. As evidence for ghosts, gods, goblins, or visiting extraterrestrial aliens, I am very sceptical.

Since when is our imaginations a bad thing that should be avoided?

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When they cause harm, and/or displace accurate descriptions of reality.

What's the Harm?

368,379 people killed, 306,096 injured and over $2,815,931,000 in economic damages

Below are the topics in which we have found stories of harm. We encourage you to explore the stories within, especially any topic that is part of your own life or the lives of your loved ones.

http://whatstheharm.net/index.html

HitchSlap said:

Would imagining a relationship with an invisible being qualify as problematic?

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Depends if the invisible being has claimed to have created the universe and life as we know it. We don't yet have an explanation for how or why the universe exists, or how life came to exist on this planet, so this claim is still worth serious investigation.

Chriliman said:

Depends if the invisible being has claimed to have created the universe and life as we know it. We don't yet have an explanation for how or why the universe exists, or how life came to exist on this planet, so this claim is still worth serious investigation.

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Indeed, it would seem that, "...imagining a relationship with an invisible being," would, qualify as problematic.

Thanks for the honest reply.

HitchSlap said:

Indeed, it would seem that, "...imagining a relationship with an invisible being," would, qualify as problematic.

Thanks for the honest reply.

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So, from your perspective, I qualify as a problematic human being because I claim to have a real relationship with God who is invisible to the biological eye?

What do you suggest humanity should do to remedy the "problems" caused by human beings such as myself?

Chriliman said:

So, from your perspective, I qualify as a problematic human being because I claim to have a real relationship with God who is invisible to the biological eye?

What do you suggest humanity should do to remedy the "problems" caused by human beings such as myself?

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Education and discussion. Much like you're doing now.

HitchSlap said:

Education and discussion. Much like you're doing now.

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Indeed, education and discussion is very helpful in finding the truth.

DaveW-Ohev said:

the same way the IRS punishes those who consider them fiction.

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And, at that point, they would not consider the IRS a fiction anymore. Your analogy fails.

How does that compare to the Christian God? When has it done something that cannot be dismissed as myth, imagination, hoax, or outright fabrication?

OK, tell me if I've got things right; you acknowledge that:

Chriliman said:

... Someone who relies on their own moral compass will undoubtably make wrong decisions that might result in further harm.
[my emphasis]

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But:

Chriliman said:

... My hope is that my personal moral compass is inline with God's objective morality
[my emphasis]

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You seem to be saying that you follow your personal moral compass despite being certain that you'll make wrong decisions, but you hope you won't - which makes it an admittedly vain hope.

Meh; can you see why this seems like a trivial truism wrapped in portentous language? The best anyone can do is to follow their personal moral compass and hope they're doing the right thing, while knowing they'll make mistakes.

I think sin is to know Gods will yet deliberately rebel. Evil is the imperfection of trying to do Gods will. Satan had already sinned, rebelling against the Universal Father. Eve and then Adam sinned but obveously Adam and Eve were not perfect to begin with. It's been a false philosophy for the longest time.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

OK, tell me if I've got things right; you acknowledge that:But:

You seem to be saying that you follow your personal moral compass despite being certain that you'll make wrong decisions, but you hope you won't - which makes it an admittedly vain hope.

Meh; can you see why this seems like a trivial truism wrapped in portentous language? The best anyone can do is to follow their personal moral compass and hope they're doing the right thing, while knowing they'll make mistakes.

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I said someone who relies on their moral compass will undoubtedly make wrong choices and possibly make things worse for themselves. This is not me, I rely on God, not myself.

Chriliman said:

I said someone who relies on their moral compass will undoubtedly make wrong choices and possibly make things worse for themselves. This is not me, I rely on God, not myself.

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Exactly how do you check your god's moral compass? Does not your theology boil down to, anything goes, as long as you believe?

Davian said:

Exactly how do you check your god's moral compass? Does not your theology boil down to, anything goes, as long as you believe?

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No, my beliefs and theological commitments are open to be refined by the truth.

Chriliman said:

No, my beliefs and theological commitments are open to be refined by the truth.

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Does not your theology boil down to, anything goes, as long as you believe?