God and Satan

[God v2.03 build 6]

It seems to me that God and Satan, if they both exist, must be one and the same being. If either were more powerful than the other, then one would be easily banished or whatnot. Two beings with infinite power seem a little much for the universe to handle, so it seems to me they'd be the same thing. So, god being a, well, god of infinite power, either you must admit that satan is as powerful as god, they are one and the same, god allows a lesser being to torture souls and such, satan doesn't exist, god doesn't exist, or neither exist.

Ah, forgot the "They are the same being" option in the poll, sorry bout that.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

I do not believe in Satan, at least not in the Judeo-Christian sense. Then again, I don't believe in God in the Judeo-Christian sense, either.

 

[Magisterium]

It seems to me that God and Satan, if they both exist, must be one and the same being. If either were more powerful than the other, then one would be easily banished or whatnot. Two beings with infinite power seem a little much for the universe to handle, so it seems to me they'd be the same thing. So, god being a, well, god of infinite power, either you must admit that satan is as powerful as god, they are one and the same, god allows a lesser being to torture souls and such, satan doesn't exist, god doesn't exist, or neither exist.

Ah, forgot the "They are the same being" option in the poll, sorry bout that.

Man dude! You need to come take my RCIA class. You'd get a kick out of it! You're one heck of a thinker...

At any rate, in order to answer this question, some "assumptions" need to be made . These can be defined as the Judeo-Christian understanding of God and Satan and good and evil.
Now, assuming these are true, Satan is NOT a being of infinite power. The Judeo-Christian understanding of Satan is that he was a created being of spirit (an angel) who through his free will, chose to deny God's plan and do his own will. Being unbound by matter, his ability is greater than people, but significantly less than God's (in that he was created by God [the initial mover ]).

The next reasonable question would be "Then why doesn't God just destroy satan?". Now we get deeper into theology than I'm sure you'd like to go, but I'll take you there anyway. God's perfect love was his impetus for creation. His omniscience forsaw that some would disobey. However, perfect love does not allow discrimination (even before creation). Therefore, ones who are evil (spiritual and physical) are still created and allowed to exist. However, God's love and the works of evil are analagous to light and dark. Dark only exists as an absence of Light. So also evil only exists as an absence of good. Darkness can never overcome light. Likewise, evil cannot prevail against good.

 

[ZiSunka]

It seems to me that God and Satan, if they both exist, must be one and the same being. If either were more powerful than the other, then one would be easily banished or whatnot. Two beings with infinite power seem a little much for the universe to handle, so it seems to me they'd be the same thing. So, god being a, well, god of infinite power, either you must admit that satan is as powerful as god, they are one and the same, god allows a lesser being to torture souls and such, satan doesn't exist, god doesn't exist, or neither exist.

Ah, forgot the "They are the same being" option in the poll, sorry bout that.

They are not at war with each other. Satan continues to exist because he continues to serve God's purpose. Once that purpose is over, satan is done, too.

Where'd you get the idea that satan has infinite power anyway?

 

[Magisterium]

They are not at war with each other. Satan continues to exist because he continues to serve God's purpose. Once that purpose is over, satan is done, too.

Where'd you get the idea that satan has infinite power anyway?

While that may seem reasonable, it's untrue. God has no use of evil. Evil is by its very nature contrary to God's will. The evil that Satan does and causes is NOT part of God's plan or his will. Evil is the creation of Satan's will. Additionally, they ARE indeed at war. However, the war is for the will of mankind. Satan attempts to persuade as many as possible to forgo God's Will in favor of their own way.

 

[tcampen]

While that may seem reasonable, it's untrue. God has no use of evil. Evil is by its very nature contrary to God's will. The evil that Satan does and causes is NOT part of God's plan or his will. Evil is the creation of Satan's will. Additionally, they ARE indeed at war. However, the war is for the will of mankind. Satan attempts to persuade as many as possible to forgo God's Will in favor of their own way.

That assertion invariably begs the question....If god is all powerful, why not just do away with Satan and evil? If god has the ability to eliminate evil from existance, why doesn't he?

If I was walking down the street and saw a brutal rape about to occur in the ally, and there was a police officer nearby who could stop it - but only if I told him....would it be wrong of me to not tell the officer? In other words, I am aware of a wrong being committed, and I have the ability to prevent that harm, do I have any obligation to do so?

I realize that this, like all analogies, is imperfect, but it does illustrate the point.

 

[TScott]

God sez:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[Blindfaith]

That assertion invariably begs the question....If god is all powerful, why not just do away with Satan and evil? If god has the ability to eliminate evil from existance, why doesn't he?

{bolding mine}

He does. Read the last chapter of the bible.

 

[DoomMoose]

Correct me if im wrong but in the bible god creates *EVERYTHING*.So
he created a threat and then lets it loose.So that his "children"could
accept him or suffer.Its like me having a son then putting him in the
middle of the train tracks then give him the choice to Glorify me with
praise or die.

 

[Gentle Panther]

It seems to me that God and Satan, if they both exist, must be one and the same being. If either were more powerful than the other, then one would be easily banished or whatnot. Two beings with infinite power seem a little much for the universe to handle, so it seems to me they'd be the same thing. So, god being a, well, god of infinite power, either you must admit that satan is as powerful as god, they are one and the same, god allows a lesser being to torture souls and such, satan doesn't exist, god doesn't exist, or neither exist.

Ah, forgot the "They are the same being" option in the poll, sorry bout that.

If Satan does exist, I'd like to think God is more powerful than he. As to why God allows him to exist at all is a dilemna...it confounds me. The whole concept that God allows evil is scary.

 

[God v2.03 build 6]

If true, it is indeed a dilemma. He allows Satan to exist as punishment for those who don't serve him? I think thats also relevant to the question, why would god create imperfect people? He would of course realize that some would be "evil"...so what's the point?

 

[Gentle Panther]

If true, it is indeed a dilemma. He allows Satan to exist as punishment for those who don't serve him? I think thats also relevant to the question, why would god create imperfect people? He would of course realize that some would be "evil"...so what's the point?

I have the same questions!!!

 

[Magisterium]

(From my earlier post)
The next reasonable question would be "Then why doesn't God just destroy satan?". Now we get deeper into theology than I'm sure you'd like to go, but I'll take you there anyway. God's perfect love was his impetus for creation. His omniscience forsaw that some would disobey. However, perfect love does not allow discrimination (even before creation). Therefore, ones who are evil (spiritual and physical) are still created and allowed to exist. However, God's love and the works of evil are analagous to light and dark. Dark only exists as an absence of Light. So also evil only exists as an absence of good. Darkness can never overcome light. Likewise, evil cannot prevail against good.

 

[God v2.03 build 6]

(From my earlier post)
The next reasonable question would be "Then why doesn't God just destroy satan?". Now we get deeper into theology than I'm sure you'd like to go, but I'll take you there anyway. God's perfect love was his impetus for creation. His omniscience forsaw that some would disobey. However, perfect love does not allow discrimination (even before creation). Therefore, ones who are evil (spiritual and physical) are still created and allowed to exist. However, God's love and the works of evil are analagous to light and dark. Dark only exists as an absence of Light. So also evil only exists as an absence of good. Darkness can never overcome light. Likewise, evil cannot prevail against good.

I don't quite follow you...what do you mean by "perfect love does not allow discrimination"? And I don't really understand your light and dark/good and evil analogy either...are you saying there can be no good without evil?

 

[Magisterium]

I don't quite follow you...what do you mean by "perfect love does not allow discrimination"? And I don't really understand your light and dark/good and evil analogy either...are you saying there can be no good without evil?

When I stated that perfect love does not allow discrimination, I am stating that the benefits of God's love are bestowed upon the just and the unjust. Evil is a product of man's misused free will. If God decided not to create people who he knew would disobey, he would effectively be removing their free will which is unjust. Likewise, If God simply destroyed all who disobeyed, free will is nullified

Essentially. for there to be true freedom, one must have the ability to to wrong.

As for the light and dark analogy, I was drawing out the fact that light and dark are not opposing forces. Dark is simply a lack of light. Just as cold is a lack of heat. In the same way, evil is simply a lack of good. The truth is, if you wish to "make" darkness, you do it by removing light. If you wish to make light, you allow light to enter. In either case, light is the operand. Darkness is not real except in that it describes a lack of light.
Similarly, evil is used to describe where good is lacking. Essentially, good can exist without evil, but evil cannot exist unless good first exists.

 

[vajradhara]

Darkness can never overcome light. Likewise, evil cannot prevail against good.

Namaste AB,

this is not correct... if i take a flashlight and shine it's beam towards a piece of black cloth, i've actually destroyed the light. the photons are gone, not absorbed or reflected or someother such thing. there is a way to stop the light without destroying the photons, but that's a different conversation.

light is an absence of darkness as darkness is an absence of light.

perhaps you were speaking of the metaphorical "light" of goodness and so forth? if that's the case, it simply becomes a metaphysical discussion that will turn on the skill of the debator, rather than the underlying object of the discussion.

 

[Magisterium]

Namaste AB,

this is not correct... if i take a flashlight and shine it's beam towards a piece of black cloth, i've actually destroyed the light. the photons are gone, not absorbed or reflected or someother such thing. there is a way to stop the light without destroying the photons, but that's a different conversation.

light is an absence of darkness as darkness is an absence of light.

perhaps you were speaking of the metaphorical "light" of goodness and so forth? if that's the case, it simply becomes a metaphysical discussion that will turn on the skill of the debator, rather than the underlying object of the discussion.

Incorrect. Actually, in such a scenario, the light which is shined upon the black cloth is actually absorbed and converted into heat. When the light energy is absorbed by the cloth, it's wavelegnth is altered and it is dissapated as heat. (precisely why darker colored items get hotter in sunlight than lighter colored items). For more on this law of physics, look up the physical law of conservation of energy.

At any rate, scientifically as well as metaphorically, darkness exists as a lack of light. The same as cold exists as a lack of heat

 

[God v2.03 build 6]

When I stated that perfect love does not allow discrimination, I am stating that the benefits of God's love are bestowed upon the just and the unjust. Evil is a product of man's misused free will. If God decided not to create people who he knew would disobey, he would effectively be removing their free will which is unjust. Likewise, If God simply destroyed all who disobeyed, free will is nullified

Essentially. for there to be true freedom, one must have the ability to to wrong.

As for the light and dark analogy, I was drawing out the fact that light and dark are not opposing forces. Dark is simply a lack of light. Just as cold is a lack of heat. In the same way, evil is simply a lack of good. The truth is, if you wish to "make" darkness, you do it by removing light. If you wish to make light, you allow light to enter. In either case, light is the operand. Darkness is not real except in that it describes a lack of light.
Similarly, evil is used to describe where good is lacking. Essentially, good can exist without evil, but evil cannot exist unless good first exists.

So, if god wants nothing but the best for his creations, why then does he allow free will? What is its true importance? Why does god care so much about allowing people free will? Could people not be just as happy never knowing that they are not totally free to make their own choices? How do you know free will actually exists at all? Free will, as I'm sure you know, is a highly debated and highly debatable issue.

As for evil being the absence of good, no offense, but I think thats nonsense. If they are not opposing forces, then the lack of one does not result in the presence of the other. You are saying that all actions must be either good or bad. I'm sure you can see that there are many consequences to every action, some may be good, some bad, some somewhere in between.

 

[Magisterium]

So, if god wants nothing but the best for his creations, why then does he allow free will? What is its true importance? Why does god care so much about allowing people free will? Could people not be just as happy never knowing that they are not totally free to make their own choices? How do you know free will actually exists at all? Free will, as I'm sure you know, is a highly debated and highly debatable issue.

As for evil being the absence of good, no offense, but I think thats nonsense. If they are not opposing forces, then the lack of one does not result in the presence of the other. You are saying that all actions must be either good or bad. I'm sure you can see that there are many consequences to every action, some may be good, some bad, some somewhere in between.

First for free will. As you may know, Love is the center of Christianity. God's love for his creation, man's love for his fellow man and God, yada, yada, yada...
However, love (the benevolent concern for the well being of another) is a choice. As I stated before, God's impetus (or driving force) in creation is love. As such, he desires that we return that love. In order for that love to be returned, we must have to ability to choose to give it. If God had created man without free will, there would obviously be no evil, but we'd be mindless drones, shallowly praising and singing to God's greatness. Such a creation would be little more than an ego stroke for a vain god. The fact is, perfect love demanded that the creation be able to return that love. Indeed many who claim Christianity do not understand this and belive that they themselves (and in some extreme cases God himself) do not have free will. I'll tell you this, just because it's debated, doesn't mean it's debateable!

As for all actions being good or bad, that's precisely what I'm saying. You are right that there are consequences to every action. However, an act is necessarilly good or bad. Intent and circumstance affect the culpability (or responsibility for the act) but the act in and of itself remains either right or wrong.
For example, in a case of self defense where lethal force is necessary, the act of taking the life is stilll wrong, but the responsibility lies with the criminal who was killed and not the person who acted in self defense. Effectively, the criminal is responsible for his own murder.

Finally, If you think that evil is not an absense of good, I'm not offended. You can think thatever you like. I'm simply delivering the understandings that support the faith that you reject.

 

[God v2.03 build 6]

First for free will. As you may know, Love is the center of Christianity. God's love for his creation, man's love for his fellow man and God, yada, yada, yada...
However, love (the benevolent concern for the well being of another) is a choice. As I stated before, God's impetus (or driving force) in creation is love. As such, he desires that we return that love. In order for that love to be returned, we must have to ability to choose to give it. If God had created man without free will, there would obviously be no evil, but we'd be mindless drones, shallowly praising and singing to God's greatness. Such a creation would be little more than an ego stroke for a vain god. The fact is, perfect love demanded that the creation be able to return that love. Indeed many who claim Christianity do not understand this and belive that they themselves (and in some extreme cases God himself) do not have free will. I'll tell you this, just because it's debated, doesn't mean it's debateable!

As for all actions being good or bad, that's precisely what I'm saying. You are right that there are consequences to every action. However, an act is necessarilly good or bad. Intent and circumstance affect the culpability (or responsibility for the act) but the act in and of itself remains either right or wrong.
For example, in a case of self defense where lethal force is necessary, the act of taking the life is stilll wrong, but the responsibility lies with the criminal who was killed and not the person who acted in self defense. Effectively, the criminal is responsible for his own murder.

Finally, If you think that evil is not an absense of good, I'm not offended. You can think thatever you like. I'm simply delivering the understandings that support the faith that you reject.

Well, the existence of free will is a debatable subject, but I'm not gettting into that arguement here...I'm not the best person to get into it anywhere for that matter.

I still don't understand how you can look at all actions as being either completely good or completely bad. Are actions not judged not only by intent, but also their result? The results of a single action could be extremely varied, not only in cases of self defense. For instance, let's say you go into a store only to find someone is holding a gun pointed at the owner, demanding all the money he has. You pick up the nearest hard object and hit the thief over the back of the head as hard as you can before he has time to notice your entrance. In fact, you hit the man so hard and in just the right place that you cause major hemorraghing of the brain and the man dies several minutes later. So, on the one hand, you have stopped an innocent store owner from being robbed of his possessions/money, but on the other you have also murdered someone. All within the same action...so, is the action in my scenario necessarily good or necessarily bad? True, the robber put himself in a circumstance where he was not doing the right thing, but is he bringing death upon himself because he is trying to hold up a store? Are you completely in the wrong for handling the situation the way you did? Your intent was not his death, does that make it ok?

Well, even so, its obvious to me that both good and bad things have occurred as a result of the action, regardless of intent.

Anyway, how'd we get off on this tangent? I don't think all this is particularly relevant to the (non)existence of satan or why god may allow satan to exist...maybe a topic for another thread though