God and Purgatory

[newton3005]

Purgatory, which has been given a chapter in Dante’s Divine Comedy, isn’t directly mentioned much in the Bible, if there is a direct reference to it at all. It is a topic in the Catechism, which relies heavily on 1 Corinthians 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7. Both seem to imply that there may be a last-minute hope for some who have not been readily judged to either go to Heaven or hell, via a heated cleansing for any sins committed that may have been lingering and have not been addressed by Divine Judgement. In a sense, whoever renders such judgment turns the soul away, that more information be obtained.

Do such souls walk the earth while in a state of purgatory? It seems that contrary to Clarence, who in the movie ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’ is sent back to earth to perform a deed that will enable him to earn his wings by helping George Bailey, souls that are in a state of purgatory do not return to earth. For this, we can look to verses like Hebrews 9:27 which says ‘And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment...” The Verse doesn’t mention the soul returning to earth while such judgment awaits. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” Where is God? Well, though He has a presence on earth, He doesn’t reside on it, so, the spirit does not return to earth; it returns to God who does not reside on earth. And Leviticus 19:31 says to not even bother consulting with those who claim to communicate with the dead. In fact, it is a sin to do so. Perhaps it might arouse God’s jealousy of anyone who might draw attention away from Him.

Perhaps Purgatory can be seen as a laundry room, with a washer and dryer. Some may appear before the Lord still dirty from earthly things, and the Lord may decide to try and give them a cleansing before rendering a final decision. And if earth’s sinful grime comes off in the washing and drying, they may enter His Kingdom and if not, they go on to hell since only those who are fully cleansed of sin are allowed in to dwell with God.

 

[Rachel20]

Ecclesiastes leaves no question on the destination of the body and spirit, only on the soul. My answer to that is that the soul goes with that part to which it's attached. If you are only born once, your soul is attached to your body. If you're born again, it attaches to the spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

 

[sandman]

Purgatory, which has been given a chapter in Dante’s Divine Comedy, isn’t directly mentioned much in the Bible, if there is a direct reference to it at all. It is a topic in the Catechism, which relies heavily on 1 Corinthians 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7. Both seem to imply that there may be a last-minute hope for some who have not been readily judged to either go to Heaven or hell, via a heated cleansing for any sins committed that may have been lingering and have not been addressed by Divine Judgement. In a sense, whoever renders such judgment turns the soul away, that more information be obtained.

Do such souls walk the earth while in a state of purgatory? It seems that contrary to Clarence, who in the movie ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’ is sent back to earth to perform a deed that will enable him to earn his wings by helping George Bailey, souls that are n a state of purgatory do not return to earth. For this, we can look to verses like Hebrews 9:27 which says ‘And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment...” The Verse doesn’t mention the soul returning to earth while such judgment awaits. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” Where is God? Well, though He has a presence on earth, He doesn’t reside on it, so, the spirit does not return to earth; it returns to God who does not reside on earth. And Leviticus 19:31 says to not even bother consulting with those who claim to communicate with the dead. In fact, it is a sin to do so. Perhaps it might arouse God’s jealousy of anyone who might draw attention away from Him.

Perhaps Purgatory can be seen as a laundry room, with a washer and dryer. Some may appear before the Lord still dirty from earthly things, and the Lord may decide to try and give them a cleansing before rendering a final decision. And if earth’s sinful grime comes off in the washing and drying, they may enter His Kingdom and if not, they go on to hell since only those who are fully cleansed of sin are allowed in to dwell with God.

Purgatory would suggest that Jesus Christ was an incomplete savior….if there were such a place….
There is not!
It was used as a method of control and a $$ maker for the catholic church.


Soul is our breath life, it’s who we are …the soul is not immortal. Soul life ceases upon death.

 

[BobRyan]

Purgatory, which has been given a chapter in Dante’s Divine Comedy, isn’t directly mentioned much in the Bible, if there is a direct reference to it at all. It is a topic in the Catechism, which relies heavily on 1 Corinthians 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7. Both seem to imply that there may be a last-minute hope for some who have not been readily judged to either go to Heaven or hell, via a heated cleansing for any sins committed that may have been lingering and have not been addressed by Divine Judgement. In a sense, whoever renders such judgment turns the soul away, that more information be obtained.

Do such souls walk the earth while in a state of purgatory? It seems that contrary to Clarence, who in the movie ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’ is sent back to earth to perform a deed that will enable him to earn his wings by helping George Bailey, souls that are n a state of purgatory do not return to earth. For this, we can look to verses like Hebrews 9:27 which says ‘And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment...” The Verse doesn’t mention the soul returning to earth while such judgment awaits. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” Where is God? Well, though He has a presence on earth, He doesn’t reside on it, so, the spirit does not return to earth; it returns to God who does not reside on earth. And Leviticus 19:31 says to not even bother consulting with those who claim to communicate with the dead. In fact, it is a sin to do so. Perhaps it might arouse God’s jealousy of anyone who might draw attention away from Him.

Perhaps Purgatory can be seen as a laundry room, with a washer and dryer. Some may appear before the Lord still dirty from earthly things, and the Lord may decide to try and give them a cleansing before rendering a final decision. And if earth’s sinful grime comes off in the washing and drying, they may enter His Kingdom and if not, they go on to hell since only those who are fully cleansed of sin are allowed in to dwell with God.

Purgatory is not in the Bible for a very good reason.

Here is what is in the Bible

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,


not "and after that comes more opportunities to re-think or to suffer for old sins...before going to heaven"

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

There is also what people see and testify to, when they die. One in twenty people have such experiences to tell of.

Hebrews 12 says God disciplines those He loves, and if that is not finished when we die, it may go on.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Purgatory, which has been given a chapter in Dante’s Divine Comedy, isn’t directly mentioned much in the Bible, if there is a direct reference to it at all. It is a topic in the Catechism, which relies heavily on 1 Corinthians 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7. Both seem to imply that there may be a last-minute hope for some who have not been readily judged to either go to Heaven or hell, via a heated cleansing for any sins committed that may have been lingering and have not been addressed by Divine Judgement. In a sense, whoever renders such judgment turns the soul away, that more information be obtained.

Purgatory is only for those already saved. Not a middle state or a last chance at salvation. At least that's how Catholics see it. Other people can have other opinions. It's job is the completion of sanctification for those already judged to be saved but not yet fully ready to stand in front of God. As Isaiah said that he was a man of unclean lips and a burning coal was brought to cleanse him, so will purgatory be for us. We are already chosen and redeemed, and that part of our sanctification not finished when we die will be completed. No unclean thing can stand in the presence of the Lord. We will no longer be unclean.

Do such souls walk the earth while in a state of purgatory? It seems that contrary to Clarence, who in the movie ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’ is sent back to earth to perform a deed that will enable him to earn his wings by helping George Bailey, souls that are n a state of purgatory do not return to earth. For this, we can look to verses like Hebrews 9:27 which says ‘And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment...” The Verse doesn’t mention the soul returning to earth while such judgment awaits. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” Where is God? Well, though He has a presence on earth, He doesn’t reside on it, so, the spirit does not return to earth; it returns to God who does not reside on earth. And Leviticus 19:31 says to not even bother consulting with those who claim to communicate with the dead. In fact, it is a sin to do so. Perhaps it might arouse God’s jealousy of anyone who might draw attention away from Him.

There is no teaching on the souls in purgatory walking the earth. I don't think that is anyone's concern.

Perhaps Purgatory can be seen as a laundry room, with a washer and dryer. Some may appear before the Lord still dirty from earthly things, and the Lord may decide to try and give them a cleansing before rendering a final decision. And if earth’s sinful grime comes off in the washing and drying, they may enter His Kingdom and if not, they go on to hell since only those who are fully cleansed of sin are allowed in to dwell with God.

No. The laundry room analogy would work for soiled clothes that you want to make ready to wear. But not anything about cleaning them up before a final decision. For those happy enough to arrive in purgatory the final decision has already been made that they are part of the Kingdom. They just need to be cleansed before taking their places in the presence of the all holy God.

 

[Tolworth John]

Purgatory, which has been given a chapter in Dante’s Divine Comedy, isn’t directly mentioned much in the Bible

It isn't mention at all in the bible.

Salvation has nothing to do with us, but everything to do with God's grace to us.
We do not deserve heaven.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Purgatory is not in the Bible for a very good reason.

Here is what is in the Bible

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,


not "and after that comes more opportunities to re-think or to suffer for old sins...before going to heaven"

But that's not what we Catholics claim purgatory to be. It's not an end run around judgment. It is only for those already judged redeemed. It's not a second chance, or a last chance. It is the proximate preparation for standing before the all holy God minus all of the nasty habits and attachments to sin that you and I still harbor. Now some people may be as pure as the driven snow before they die, but I very seldom see that among Christians. In fact I don't think I have seen that yet. For the rest of us who are saved, who are in friendship with our redeemer, we aren't perfect yet. And to stand before the throne, and to stay in the Kingdom, we need to be perfected.

 

[BobRyan]

But that's not what we Catholics claim purgatory to be. It's not an end run around judgment. It is only for those already judged redeemed. It's not a second chance, or a last chance. It is the proximate preparation for standing before the all holy God minus all of the nasty habits and attachments to sin

Suppose Heb 9:27 had said "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes proximate preparation for standing before the all holy God - which could take years..."?

Because if in our real time it takes only a microsecond for the purgatory-time for a given individual to elapse -- then before even one plenary indulgences could be applied for on their behalf - all their purgatory time was already elapsed.

 

[BobRyan]

There is also what people see and testify to, when they die. One in twenty people have such experiences to tell of.

Hebrews 12 says God disciplines those He loves, and if that is not finished when we die, it may go on.

Suppose then that Heb 9:27 had said "it is appointed unto man once to die -- and then comes years of discipline"?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Suppose Heb 9:27 had said "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes proximate preparation for standing before the all holy God - which could take years..."?

No. The text has death and then judgement. Heaven or hell are the only permanent options, and the decision is based on what happened up to the point of death. Death, and then judgment, just like the text says. Some of those bound for heaven need some additional cleaning up. However long that takes, it needs to be done because no unholy thing gets into heaven. Are you, as you are this instant, fit to stand before God and tell Him you are holy enough? If you died tonight would you be fully sanctified and ready to enter heaven? If not, purgatory is for you. However long it takes.

Because if in our real time it takes only a microsecond for the purgatory-time for a given individual to elapse -- then before even one plenary indulgences could be applied for on their behalf - all their purgatory time was already elapsed.

Your statement that it takes a 'microsecond' is mere speculation. As is all speculation on the function of time in the afterlife. We really don't know. So we understand only by analogy. We are taught in the books of Maccabees that prayers for the dead are useful. We see the example of Paul praying for dead Onesiphorus in 2 Tim 1: 16-19. And we know that Judaism continues the Kadish prayers for the dead, and Catholics and the Orthodox have continued with such sorts of prayers. So, whatever way time functions outside our realm, prayers for the dead are useful.

 

[disciple Clint]

Ecclesiastes leaves no question on the destination of the body and spirit, only on the soul. My answer to that is that the soul goes with that part to which it's attached. If you are only born once, your soul is attached to your body. If you're born again, it attaches to the spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

What? where did you come up with that teaching? The soul is not material like flesh.

 

[disciple Clint]

OK here is where I am going to get some hate mail from the Catholics. There is no basis for Purgatory, Jesus paid for all of our sins 100% That is very clear to anyone who believes what Paul has written. The Catholics use a O.T. book to try and justify the existence of Purgatory based on the fact that prayers were said for people who had died in sin. That was consistent with the Jewish belief of that time and even today that people are waiting for the Messiah and are not judged at the time of death and can be benefited by prayer prior to judgment. Christians believe that the Messiah has already come and that we are judged at the time of death or in some denominations upon the return of Christ, in either case our sins have been paid for and we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, Clearly Paul tells us we have the righteousness of Jesus imputed to us, that is more than sufficient to save us. OK Catholics, your turn, shoot me down.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Suppose Heb 9:27 had said "it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes proximate preparation for standing before the all holy God - which could take years..."?

No. The text has death and then judgement.

Exactly.

Heaven or hell are the only permanent options, and the decision is based on what happened up to the point of death. Death, and then judgment, just like the text says.

So no mention of years of scrubbing...

" Some of those bound for heaven need some additional cleaning up." -- yeah that is what we don't find in Heb 9:27.

 

[BobRyan]

Are you, as you are this instant, fit to stand before God

Do we have peace with God now -- or even though forgiven now we still need lots of scrubbing to have peace with God ?

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

" and tell Him you are holy enough? "

Is there any text in the Bible where saints tell God "we are holy enough"???

If you died tonight would you be fully sanctified and ready to enter heaven? If not, purgatory is for you. However long it takes.

Wouldn't that be a handy Bible verse to have - if one accepts that POV??

 

[BobRyan]

We are taught in the books of Maccabees that prayers for the dead are useful.

Maccabees claims that prayers for the dead (and in that case it is the dead who die in outright mortal sin of idolatry) could have no benefit at all until after the bodily resurrection. I believe your view is that those prayers benefit the dead - while they are dead. So how is Maccabees helping your argument? Isn't the whole point of that doctrine to get benefit -- while dead - before the bodily resurrection of the one you are praying for???

We see the example of Paul praying for dead Onesiphorus in 2 Tim 1: 16-19.

That would be a good one indeed. Is Paul praying for dead Onesiphorus in 2 Tim 1??

Here is what we find there --

2 Tim 1:

16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains; 17 but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me— 18 the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day—and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus.​

Is it your claim that 2 Tim 1 states that all of his family, all of his household was dead???

==========================


Here is the claim of the Catholic Church from what I can tell

"Purgatory is a teaching fully revealed in the New Testament"

from: Is Purgatory in the Bible?

(BTW -- It is unclear to me that any denomination -- not even the Catholic Church -- places Maccabees in the New Testament - since it was written more than a century before the birth of Christ)

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Suppose then that Heb 9:27 had said "it is appointed unto man once to die -- and then comes years of discipline"?

I think there is a too literal interpretation, from 1 Corinthians 15:51 of being perfected in the twinkling of an eye. That will happen for those who lived through the time until Christ returns. Being an Amillenial view. They will have suffered and remained in love.

Looking at a child, my aunt when young put some seeds up her nose, but then they sprouted, she had to be taken to the Dr, she was patient and healed, and for a reward was given jelly beans. When home again, she then tried putting seeds in her nose again, and was rebuked for it. That is discipline, there is something to be gained from suffering. That is part of why we are conceived. Yes it could have been paradise, but now it is only the world.

We can appreciate the pleasures of Heaven better after suffering. Actual children there need to learn not to sin more, thinking it leads to more grace.

It takes time for Jesus' sacred blood to make you clean, and even more time to become 100% holy. We are not glorified until after we are sanctified, and sanctification is not something that can be given to you like a healing or or heart cleaning or refreshing. Or can you show an example of sanctification that is granted in an instant, hour, or day?

In paradise, and a section for growth, it could take an eternity, or seem to, time is different there.

Jesus' cross work and blood is enough for us, but how long does it take?

And then to go on to receive God's fire, and living water, an anointing, a greater revelation of God and His glory, bread of life, to receive others' salt and go on to want to have it all in time. It is like eating, you have to be hungry, forgive, and eat, and then later, become hungry and eat again. And one needs also to learn to draw out as in Philippians 2:12-13.

Learning to perfectly reverence, surrender self to the Spirit within, love, rejoice, self discipline... fully stretch the faith.

Look down on the Earth full of love and forgiveness. Become at rest in God's grace so He takes over. Dress in white. Previously I asked "when are we glorified, with the Prophets... all together, or, are they already glorified and not waiting for us?" We prepare to be rebodied. Fornicators need prepare for restoration in the body 1 Corinthians 6 and Jude 1:24.

In the Gospel Jesus said, you must be perfect, or, you must be holy. And says only those who stay warm will live, after the tribulation. Matthew 24:12-14.

In good and easy times or hard, you won't live into Heaven when you die, even if you are born again, unless you are in love with God and all peoples. Unless you continue to be effected by God's grace for a time after you die.

 

[BobRyan]

It takes time for Jesus' sacred blood to make you clean, and even more time to become 100% holy. We are not glorified until after we are sanctified, and sanctification is not something that can be given to you like a healing or or heart cleaning or refreshing. Or can you show an example of sanctification that is granted in an instant, hour, or day?
.

I am fully on board with sanctification - but you are placing some restrictions on it that the Bible does not support in my POV.

There are a number of people who like the thief on the cross accept the Gospel and die that very day. We cannot "invent" a doctrine about some afterlife of stress and sanctification and trial to get them "cleaned up" when confronted with such clear examples.

Rom 5:1 says "having BEEN justified by faith, we HAVE peace with God" not "we can start on a road that after some number of years will result in fully being at peace with God".

Rom 8:16 "the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God" not "that will will one day be accepted as the children of God after a number of years of stress and suffering"

The New Covenant gives the New heart - at the moment of justification.

"If anyone is IN Christ - he IS a NEW creation, old things are passed away all things are new" 2 Cor 5:17
not "if anyone is in Christ then after a number of years of stress and suffering he/she will finally be a new creation".

Rom 6 says that at the moment of baptism and not many years later - this is a true statement...

Rom 6:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin
...
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

=========================================

Victory over sin is not dependent on many years of sanctification ... rather it is present reality at the moment one is born-again.

At the moment one is born-again - this is reality for them in real life...
1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Living that life of victory over sin by the power of the Gospel - is ongoing sanctification and everyone is in it from the moment of the new birth to the moment of death no matter if they die at 10 years of age, at 20, at 40 or at 101.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I am fully on board with sanctification - but you are placing some restrictions on it that the Bible does not support in my POV.

There are a number of people who like the thief on the cross accept the Gospel and die that very day. We cannot "invent" a doctrine about some afterlife of stress and sanctification and trial to get them "cleaned up" when confronted with such clear examples.

Rom 5:1 says "having BEEN justified by faith, we HAVE peace with God" not "we can start on a road that after some number of years will result in fully being at peace with God".

Rom 8:16 "the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God" not "that will will one day be accepted as the children of God after a number of years of stress and suffering"

The New Covenant gives the New heart - at the moment of justification.

"If anyone is IN Christ - he IS a NEW creation, old things are passed away all things are new" 2 Cor 5:17
not "if anyone is in Christ then after a number of years of stress and suffering he/she will finally be a new creation".

Rom 6 says that at the moment of baptism and not many years later - this is a true statement...

Rom 6:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin
...
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

=========================================

Victory over sin is not dependent on many years of sanctification ... rather it is present reality at the moment one is born-again.

At the moment one is born-again - this is reality for them in real life...
1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Living that life of victory over sin by the power of the Gospel - is ongoing sanctification and everyone is in it from the moment of the new birth to the moment of death no matter if they die at 10 years of age, at 20, at 40 or at 101.

With healing and a cleaning of heart, I could have mentioned, justification by receiving the Spirit and Christ. It happens in a moment, and you are changed. But the victory over sin, and being dead to sin over time makes us holy, and I agree even at 101, you may not be 100% holy, although some are.

We are new, have peace with God, are His children and are becoming holy, but if you die in a bad moment, what then? How will you be perfected after you die? How long will it take? Like a healing, or a cleaning of heart, will God grant perfect holiness, give you a new body and glorify you? So you eternally stand, utterly perfect?

Reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God, and put it into practice and over years, you get better and better, it is confidence, positive affirmation in action, faith being stretched, reverencing God for His grace, powers, cross work done, slowly drawing it out. Peter slipped into hypocrisy and was corrected by Paul, and worse sins can happen, people living with their father's wife...

The thief beside Jesus went to paradise, by faith and humility, not born again. Many there were waiting for Jesus. Like Isaiah. Was the thief perfected in holiness in the twinkling of an eye like Steven the first martyr was born again and justified?

 

[BobRyan]

We are new, have peace with God, are His children and are becoming holy, but if you die in a bad moment, what then? How will you be perfected after you die? How long will it take? Like a healing, or a cleaning of heart, will God grant perfect holiness, give you a new body and glorify you? So you eternally stand, utterly perfect?

We all agree that the saints can slip, can make a mistake, can sin... even sinless Adam ... sinned.

At the resurrection the sinful nature is removed... which is the "bent" of the soul toward sin/sinning. So in heaven without that sinful nature , without that "bent" the 10 year old who died has only the issue of "choice" to deal with , the character, but not of still being "bent by nature", that is to say one who is bent toward sinning as they were on Earth.

If you only take the "new creation" nature and not the "old man of sin... sinful nature" then is it really a problem for God to have such a 10 year old child... a saint in heaven?

================================

When a sailor accepts Christ does the pastor say "well since you have been a sailor for 10 years -- you must continue to get drunk and take God's name in vain for a few more years until you have a bit more sanctification under your belt".??

When a bank robber accepts Christ does the pastor say "well since you have been robbing banks for 10 years -- you must continue steal and lie and rob banks for a few more years until you have a bit more sanctification under your belt".??

When a prostitute accepts Christ - does the pastor say .... ??