God and Morality

Corpus Aristotelicum · Jan 20, 2016

I want to have a civil discussion on the topic of God and Morality.

I want to state a few things up front:

1. This is not a debate. This is a discussion. If you find this statement confusing, please read this for clarification: https://ginsberg.umich.edu/content/debate-vs-dialogue-vs-discussion

2. The term "God" in the context of this discussion is in reference to the Abrahamic Creator of the Universe that is spoken of in the Hebrew Bible, "The Holy Bible", and the Qur'an.

3. I want this thread to essentially be a series of individual discussions. Why you might ask? Because I do not enjoy Assuming what someone else believes. I want them to state what they believe and progress with a series of questions. Because of the diversity of beliefs, I must ask basic questions to further the discussion on a common playing field. Not doing this would be like a group of people saying "Let's play a sport!" and one person starts playing soccer while the other is expecting to play baseball. The result is chaos and confusion.

4. I am agnostic on matters of faith. Being a Deist I believe in a creator of sorts, but not necessarily a personal Deity with certain characteristics. Because of this asking me what I believe (As a matter of faith) will result in the same honest response...I do not know. The point of this thread is to help me and others understand what you, the participates, believe and more importantly...why.

So I'll start by asking a my first question.

What are God's characteristics and qualities? You could also touch on the topic of whether God is capable of performing an immoral action and how morality is defined in your world view.

Especially list out the ones most important to the topic of morality.

ecco · Jan 20, 2016

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
I want to have a civil discussion on the topic of God and Morality. So I'll start by asking a my first question.
What are God's characteristics and qualities?

As an atheist, I am not qualified to comment on a god's characteristics and qualities. I could address the characteristics and qualities of the biblical god based on scripture, but that was not the question.

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
You could also touch on the topic of whether God is capable of performing an immoral action

see above.

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
how morality is defined in your world view.

Individual morality is the level of the concept of and right and wrong a person has.

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
Especially list out the ones most important to the topic of morality.

What "ones"?

terryjohn · Jan 20, 2016

We could all wish to see God as he really is and ask him to reveal himself to us all, but I get the impression that like Christ said when his followers asked him to show them the father (God) he said if you have seen me you have seen the father. What sought of man would God be if he walked amongst us? What words would he speak and what things would he do? The end issue is always of all men who claimed to speak for God, what do we make of Christs claim to be the son of God? God?

quatona · Jan 20, 2016

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
So I'll start by asking a my first question.

What are God's characteristics and qualities? You could also touch on the topic of whether God is capable of performing an immoral action and how morality is defined in your world view.

If I understand you correctly, you want to discuss with theists only?

Locutus · Jan 20, 2016

terryjohn said:
We could all wish to see God as he really is and ask him to reveal himself to us all, but I get the impression that like Christ said when his followers asked him to show them the father (God) he said if you have seen me you have seen the father. What sought of man would God be if he walked amongst us? What words would he speak and what things would he do? The end issue is always of all men who claimed to speak for God, what do we make of Christs claim to be the son of God? God?

You seem to be asking questions, in response to ... questions. Are you unwilling to participate in the OP's 'project'?

GrowingSmaller · Jan 21, 2016

Yo! peace.

Morality and the meaning of life coincide, and they amount to "raitonal attraction to being".

So, for us moral capacity is a trait, like a programmable guidance-system allowing us to live in a certain fashion(s).

Its a human trait basically.

What would a "ever living god" need with that, from his own perspective?

If god cant crash the car, cant be murdered, cant die of cancer, doesnt need material possessions, why would he need a moral compass?

For humans morality is autocentric. Its a human centred thing. If God were to intervene it would be heterocentric. Guiding the other.

Corpus Aristotelicum · Jan 22, 2016

ecco said:
As an atheist, I am not qualified to comment on a god's characteristics and qualities. I could address the characteristics and qualities of the biblical god based on scripture, but that was not the question.

see above.

Individual morality is the level of the concept of and right and wrong a person has.

What "ones"?

As long as the responses are allowed within this site's rules , I am open to a non-theist's perspective based on what the Scriptures say. I just need to know which text(s) we are basing it on. It would interesting to compare the conclusions drawn by those with and without faith.

The mention of 'ones' was in reference to specific characteristics of God that pertain to morality. For example a common trait mentioned is Uniqueness. Such a trait would not add much to the discussion of morality. So such traits that won't further the conversation can be omitted if desired to focus the discussion on those traits having some impact on God's morality.

Corpus Aristotelicum · Jan 22, 2016

terryjohn said:
We could all wish to see God as he really is and ask him to reveal himself to us all, but I get the impression that like Christ said when his followers asked him to show them the father (God) he said if you have seen me you have seen the father. What sought of man would God be if he walked amongst us? What words would he speak and what things would he do? The end issue is always of all men who claimed to speak for God, what do we make of Christs claim to be the son of God? God?

I'm sorry but I can't answer these questions. Perhaps someone else in the thread might.

Corpus Aristotelicum · Jan 22, 2016

quatona said:
If I understand you correctly, you want to discuss with theists only?

I'm open to hearing from non-theists as well. I suppose, like ecco mentioned, this would be based on what a certain religious text states (e.g. 'The Bible').

Corpus Aristotelicum · Jan 22, 2016

GrowingSmaller said:
Yo! peace.

Morality and the meaning of life coincide, and they amount to "raitonal attraction to being".

So, for us moral capacity is a trait, like a programmable guidance-system allowing us to live in a certain fashion(s).

Its a human trait basically.

What would a "ever living god" need with that, from his own perspective?

If god cant crash the car, cant be murdered, cant die of cancer, doesnt need material possessions, why would he need a moral compass?

For humans morality is autocentric. Its a human centred thing. If God were to intervene it would be heterocentric. Guiding the other.

Peace.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

So based on what you are saying, God is:

1. Immortal (can't be murdered, can't die of cancer)
2. Self-Sufficient (doesn't need material possessions)
3. Unable to Error? I might be misinterpreting this one. (Can't crash the car)
4. Beyond Morality (Guiding the other [Humanity?])

So from your perspective is there such a thing as absolute Morality or is it all relative? Are we relatively guided by another (God?).

quatona · Jan 22, 2016

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
I'm open to hearing from non-theists as well. I suppose, like ecco mentioned, this would be based on what a certain religious text states (e.g. 'The Bible').

Thanks for your response, and thanks for your invitation!
However, it wouldn´t feel good to me as a non-believer to
1. pick one of those books over any other, and
2. give an answer based on my personal interpretation (particularly when seeing how not even adherents of this religion can´t agree what their holy book says).

Personally, I find this approach unproductive and intellectually dishonest. In my experience even those who believe in a link between God (and a objective morality) start with their personal moral convictions. Frequent example: "If it weren´t for God, Hitler could be considered a good guy.". So the premise (before introducing God) is: Hitler is a bad guy. Thus, the idea that we need God to determine good and bad is out of the window, by virtue of this very argument.

Cearbhall · Jan 23, 2016

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
2. The term "God" in the context of this discussion is in reference to the Abrahamic Creator of the Universe that is spoken of in the Hebrew Bible, "The Holy Bible", and the Qur'an.
[...]
What are God's characteristics and qualities? You could also touch on the topic of whether God is capable of performing an immoral action and how morality is defined in your world view.

This seems like it would be better suited for a board where non-Christians ask Christians questions and no other non-Christians can respond in the thread. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding your intentions.

rickyknight1 · Jan 23, 2016

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
I want to have a civil discussion on the topic of God and Morality.

I want to state a few things up front:

1. This is not a debate. This is a discussion. If you find this statement confusing, please read this for clarification: https://ginsberg.umich.edu/content/debate-vs-dialogue-vs-discussion

2. The term "God" in the context of this discussion is in reference to the Abrahamic Creator of the Universe that is spoken of in the Hebrew Bible, "The Holy Bible", and the Qur'an.

3. I want this thread to essentially be a series of individual discussions. Why you might ask? Because I do not enjoy Assuming what someone else believes. I want them to state what they believe and progress with a series of questions. Because of the diversity of beliefs, I must ask basic questions to further the discussion on a common playing field. Not doing this would be like a group of people saying "Let's play a sport!" and one person starts playing soccer while the other is expecting to play baseball. The result is chaos and confusion.

4. I am agnostic on matters of faith. Being a Deist I believe in a creator of sorts, but not necessarily a personal Deity with certain characteristics. Because of this asking me what I believe (As a matter of faith) will result in the same honest response...I do not know. The point of this thread is to help me and others understand what you, the participates, believe and more importantly...why.

So I'll start by asking a my first question.

What are God's characteristics and qualities? You could also touch on the topic of whether God is capable of performing an immoral action and how morality is defined in your world view.

Especially list out the ones most important to the topic of morality.

This is actually a easy question. The prophets are actually best known for being descriptive about the characteristics of God. Some of the more known prophets of the bible are, Isaiah, jeremiah, and Ezekiel. Read Isaiah 40, i love the atteibutes that the writer associates to God.

rickyknight1 · Jan 23, 2016

terryjohn said:
We could all wish to see God as he really is and ask him to reveal himself to us all, but I get the impression that like Christ said when his followers asked him to show them the father (God) he said if you have seen me you have seen the father. What sought of man would God be if he walked amongst us? What words would he speak and what things would he do? The end issue is always of all men who claimed to speak for God, what do we make of Christs claim to be the son of God? God?

Jesus told everyone to not just believe in his words but to believe in his deeds. He healed the sick, he was kind and forgiving. He judged everyone equally according to their hearts and actions. He raised people from the dead and he had the power to forgive sins. But most importantly he was killed and he raised back from the dead, which ia the ultimate proof that he is the son of God as he claimed

rickyknight1 · Jan 23, 2016

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
As long as the responses are allowed within this site's rules , I am open to a non-theist's perspective based on what the Scriptures say. I just need to know which text(s) we are basing it on. It would interesting to compare the conclusions drawn by those with and without faith.

The mention of 'ones' was in reference to specific characteristics of God that pertain to morality. For example a common trait mentioned is Uniqueness. Such a trait would not add much to the discussion of morality. So such traits that won't further the conversation can be omitted if desired to focus the discussion on those traits having some impact on God's morality.

According to scripture alot of times God was formless. When je appeared to Moses in the burning bush or when he was at mount sinai in the form of a thick black cloud. According to Jesus in the gospels when we are resurrected we will not be married or given in marriage evryone will be perfect like the angels. So by that logic i dont think God has a need to abide by our concecpt of morality. However he did order adam and eve to procreate and populate the earth and multiply. That tells me that God has an idea of how we should behave and treat oursleves in our concept of morality

rickyknight1 · Jan 23, 2016

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
Peace.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

So based on what you are saying, God is:

1. Immortal (can't be murdered, can't die of cancer)
2. Self-Sufficient (doesn't need material possessions)
3. Unable to Error? I might be misinterpreting this one. (Can't crash the car)
4. Beyond Morality (Guiding the other [Humanity?])

So from your perspective is there such a thing as absolute Morality or is it all relative? Are we relatively guided by another (God?).

This is my final input unless otherwise. God gave us the commandments as a guide for proper behavior. For example the 10 commanmendts shun aduletry and in the times of moses the punishment for commiting adultery was death. In the gospels jesus equates lusting for the opposite sex in that same category. He said it plainly if your eyes causes you to Sin gauge them out! These things are a clear cut way of understanding Gods morality atleast on the subject of how we wants us to act. Because paul says if you live a certain way, sexual immorality, drunkenness, malice, etc you won't go to heaven

SteveB28 · Jan 23, 2016

rickyknight1 said:
Jesus told everyone to not just believe in his words but to believe in his deeds. He healed the sick, he was kind and forgiving. He judged everyone equally according to their hearts and actions. He raised people from the dead and he had the power to forgive sins. But most importantly he was killed and he raised back from the dead, which ia the ultimate proof that he is the son of God as he claimed

Allegedly.

GrowingSmaller · Jan 23, 2016

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
Peace.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

So based on what you are saying, God is:

1. Immortal (can't be murdered, can't die of cancer)
2. Self-Sufficient (doesn't need material possessions)
3. Unable to Error? I might be misinterpreting this one. (Can't crash the car)
4. Beyond Morality (Guiding the other [Humanity?])

So from your perspective is there such a thing as absolute Morality or is it all relative? Are we relatively guided by another (God?).

WHat I mean is that morality is a human tool. It serves human beings. Gor doesnt need it, because hes not a standard human biological entity. I personally believe if god gives us a universal morality, it is universal because that is best for us. Note for us. Even if we worship him etc, please him etc it is best for us.

Morality is like any other biological adaptation. As far as i know God doesnt need a meal three times a day, and so moral rules relating to food simple miss the point when it coems to him. Go you get it?

Ok its not as obvious as a hand, but just as a hand is a adaptation which can be moulded and shaped, so are our moral rules. If there is an absolte and a God, then theres a fixed set of compliances. If not, then we are more free to adapt and also to potentially confuse ourselves.

ecco · Jan 23, 2016

Corpus Aristotelicum In the OP said:
4. I am agnostic on matters of faith. Being a Deist ...

What are God's characteristics and qualities? You could also touch on the topic of whether God is capable of performing an immoral action and how morality is defined in your world view.

Corpus Aristotelicum said:
As long as the responses are allowed within this site's rules , I am open to a non-theist's perspective based on what the Scriptures say. I just need to know which text(s) we are basing it on. It would interesting to compare the conclusions drawn by those with and without faith.

The mention of 'ones' was in reference to specific characteristics of God that pertain to morality. For example a common trait mentioned is Uniqueness. Such a trait would not add much to the discussion of morality. So such traits that won't further the conversation can be omitted if desired to focus the discussion on those traits having some impact on God's morality.

You state you are agnostic and a deist, yet you apparently want a discussion of the Christian God since you want the discussion based on scripture. Nevertheless, since you asked...

A mere human cannot know the reasons God does the things He does, so we can only judge the things He did using our own concepts of right and wrong and His Actions.

God, with supposed omniscience, created Adam & Eve; gave them a commandment that He knew they would disobey; blamed them for their disobedience; imposed Sin on all of mankind.
When His creation became really bad, as He knew it would, He killed all of it (except just a few people and animals) in a very horrible way.
He instructed His people to kill the widows and male children of His peoples vanquished enemies and to "take" the young virgins for themselves.
He sent one part of Himself to earth for thirty years to preach about love. He then allowed that one part to give up its earthly persona and be rejoined in Heaven. For an eternal God, thirty years as a human is not much of a "sacrifice".

[/QUOTE]

Corpus Aristotelicum · Jan 23, 2016

quatona said:
Thanks for your response, and thanks for your invitation!
However, it wouldn´t feel good to me as a non-believer to
1. pick one of those books over any other, and
2. give an answer based on my personal interpretation (particularly when seeing how not even adherents of this religion can´t agree what their holy book says).

Personally, I find this approach unproductive and intellectually dishonest. In my experience even those who believe in a link between God (and a objective morality) start with their personal moral convictions. Frequent example: "If it weren´t for God, Hitler could be considered a good guy.". So the premise (before introducing God) is: Hitler is a bad guy. Thus, the idea that we need God to determine good and bad is out of the window, by virtue of this very argument.

I can see your point. That God's presence does not dictate what is viewed as Moral or Immoral. I am inclined to agree since people who 'Lose their faith' do not seem to change much afterwards. Nor would the concept of Right/Wrong disappear with the abolishing of religion.

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