God and agnostics

[lostagnostic]

How does God/Christianity view the agnostic perspective?
Is acceptance of the unknown "ok" in the eyes of God?

If you practice all the teachings/ideas of Christ, live a humble, helpful and selfless "Christian" path but remain unsure, or even unconcerned, with the details of what happens after death, will you be left behind?

Can one's selfless "Christian" habits on earth outweigh the necessity of written technicalities?

For example: Can a person who spends their entire life helping others and living a humble and helpful life but does not focus on the details of religious practice/faith be judged over someone who lived a horrible, abusive, selfish life that fearfully just accepts faith in Christ upon their deathbed?

 

[Lukaris]

Well it seems from the Beatitudes that there are many who the Lord calls blessed that would be Christian and non Christian. Jesus Christ tells enigmatic parables of sheep & goats, those who thought they knew Him etc. that show He will test everyone's heart. Nonetheless as Christians we are called to tell our neighbor that one must in faith call upon Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour & live by those virtues that are actually His. Until this is done, salvation is guesswork and there is no assurance. This is why works cannot save (although He will determine those who have done good; see Matthew 25:31-46). If you understand what Christ represents as love then know He is love and as He said, "If ye love me,keep my commandments." (John 14:15). Hope to be helpful, a sinner.

 

[salida]

Christ died for mankind to be the perfect sacrifice for fallen humanity. Its like a doctor has only one treatment plan to heal you from your condition. Its the same for the spiritual condition of mankind. What is God after? That people would turn away from their sinful condition and receive Him.

John 3:16 -For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[lostagnostic]

So it is interpreted that Jesus is more concerned with acknowledgment than living by his creed? And if one who follows his creed 100% with exception of the certainty that He is the prime messenger/saviour there is no guarantees to be saved? Is the acknowledgment of Christ's piety more important to the good of the world than the creed of Christ?

 

[Lukaris]

So it is interpreted that Jesus is more concerned with acknowledgment than living by his creed? And if one who follows his creed 100% with exception of the certainty that He is the prime messenger/saviour there is no guarantees to be saved? Is the acknowledgment of Christ's piety more important to the good of the world than the creed of Christ?

We need to acknowledge Him as Saviour and do what He (as God) instructs us to do. Others do by natural good what He instructs (Romans 2:12-16) but we all stumble & need His forgiveness of our sins (Romans 3:23). This is not to say many non Christians will not have salvation (as mentioned before) but there is no assurance when one dies. Faith must be accompanied by works (see James 2 esp vs.13-20).

 

[solarwave]

I've heard that there is a part in the bible which says people who have not heard of God will be judged by how they follow their conscious to do the right thing. So someone who trys to do the right thing, but has never been given a reason to believe in God, I guess it would applie to them.

By the way it doesn't matter if a murderer on his deathbed becomes a christian or a good man never does; we all deserve hell but Jesus came to save all. We need Jesus no more and no less than the murderer.

 

[lostagnostic]

Why is fear and threats of eternal damnation the most prominent motivator to live a Christian life? Is this just an Old testament concept or is it really the primary thing I should focus on while living my life and trying to do good things?

Why is God waiting for judgement day to bring peace to the world and it's inhabitants and their destiny of sin rather than just fix it from beginning? Why tolerate an earth filled with sinful humans at all if it's all just going to be destroyed? Earth is God's creation filled with the sins of freewill (also his creation?). Why does He go through all the trouble of judging us when we are ultimately his creation?

 

[Lukaris]

Why is fear and threats of eternal damnation the most prominent motivator to live a Christian life? Is this just an Old testament concept or is it really the primary thing I should focus on while living my life and trying to do good things?

Why is God waiting for judgement day to bring peace to the world and it's inhabitants and their destiny of sin rather than just fix it from beginning? Why tolerate an earth filled with sinful humans at all if it's all just going to be destroyed? Earth is God's creation filled with the sins of freewill (also his creation?). Why does He go through all the trouble of judging us when we are ultimately his creation?

You have to remember that Eve ( being deceived) broke communion with God which left us vulnerable. Although Adam and Eve did not further degenerate, Cain slew Abel and had the audacity to lie to God about whether he was his brother's keeper. God had warned Cain about his temperment before he murdered; God does not force us, man brought bloodletting upon himself. While we are not collectively at fault for ancestral sin, we suffer in anguish from its effects from natural disasters to man made ones like war. God (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit) sent his only begotten Son whose shed blood redeems us to have eternal life; His Son is God and God died for us. One may ask why so much human anguish in such a drawn out process? God does not exist in time but His creation does & is redeemed as determined by God (what else can we say?). Remember the Old Testament is the word of God but also understood by His people (the Israelites) before God fully revealed Himself whereas the New is complete. Perhaps an approach to our human predicament can be understood by reading Romans 1 & 2, then read Acts 7 (St. Stephen provides a excellent summary of Israelite Old Testament history & predicament before his martyrdom), then read chptr 1 in the Gospel of John (how Jesus as God is xplained, the call of St John the baptist, the choosing of the apostles), then read Matthew 5,6, & 7 for a core explanation of the Gospel, then St. Paul's letter to the Phillipians. These might be good for starters. Again notice in the Beatitudes, blessings are given to types of people by God (it is not specified until "blessed are you" is stated in Matthew 5:11 in which disciples of Christ are unique to a given Beatitude). Also read the parable of the good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37; clearly, God will determine who He saves but He loves and to give us assurance "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:17). Hoping to be helpful, a sinner.

 

[eolculnamo2]

Christianity teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ(Ephesians 2:8)

Works are not what saves us.

A person that truly has a change of heart on their deathbed will go to heaven.

A person who does not believe and trust completely in God will not.

 

[lostagnostic]

Christianity teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ(Ephesians 2:8)

Works are not what saves us.

A person that truly has a change of heart on their deathbed will go to heaven.

A person who does not believe and trust completely in God will not.

So, God's vanity takes precedence over his overall teachings of goodwill?

Being unsure about something isn't exactly "not believing"
Couldn't "not understanding" faith just fall under the "mentally challenged" category so you can get a pass into heaven because your heart is in the right place? Or do the "mentally challenged" go to Hell because they can't "mentally" grasp the concepts of heaven, hell, damnation, redemption and God?

 

[ikonographics]

Jesus Christ didn't come into the word to offer mankind another system of ethics. Most other religions have very similar ethics to Christianity. He is not simply an ethical role model. God became man in order to reunite fallen human nature with God and to heal it of the consequences of the fall which are sin and death (both spiritual and physical). God is the source of all life and sanctification. When man departed from God (the fall) he broke away from this source and became subject to death and corruption. In this state man could not reunite himself to God. The only way for the relationship between God and man to be restored was for God to become man.
Human and divine nature were united in the person of Jesus Christ so that by uniting ourselves to Christ we are united to God. This is why it is not sufficient for one to simply live a ethical "Christian" life without being united to Christ. God damns no one to hell. We chose heaven or hell. They are not physical places but our relationship with God. Heaven is to live in communion with God and hell is to willing separate oneself from communion with God.

 

[lostagnostic]

Jesus Christ didn't come into the word to offer mankind another system of ethics. Most other religions have very similar ethics to Christianity. He is not simply an ethical role model. God became man in order to reunite fallen human nature with God and to heal it of the consequences of the fall which are sin and death (both spiritual and physical). God is the source of all life and sanctification. When man departed from God (the fall) he broke away from this source and became subject to death and corruption. In this state man could not reunite himself to God. The only way for the relationship between God and man to be restored was for God to become man.
Human and divine nature were united in the person of Jesus Christ so that by uniting ourselves to Christ we are united to God. This is why it is not sufficient for one to simply live a ethical "Christian" life without being united to Christ. God damns no one to hell. We chose heaven or hell. They are not physical places but our relationship with God. Heaven is to live in communion with God and hell is to willing separate oneself from communion with God.

"God damns no one to hell. We choose heaven or hell. They are not physical places but our relationship with God. Heaven is to live in communion with God and hell is to willing separate oneself from communion with God."

This may be the most reasonable, and logical explanation I have ever been told regarding relationships with God and Jesus. While I still have a lot to struggle with regarding wading through the muddy technical details of the bible and the conflicting viewpoints between multiple religious representatives, I thank you for pointing out the importance of a PERSONAL communion with God in terms I can understand. I can believe in a Heaven on earth/Hell on earth concept much more than a physical afterlife guestlist.

 

[ikonographics]

"God damns no one to hell. We choose heaven or hell. They are not physical places but our relationship with God. Heaven is to live in communion with God and hell is to willing separate oneself from communion with God."

This may be the most reasonable, and logical explanation I have ever been told regarding relationships with God and Jesus. While I still have a lot to struggle with regarding wading through the muddy technical details of the bible and the conflicting viewpoints between multiple religious representatives, I thank you for pointing out the importance of a PERSONAL communion with God in terms I can understand. I can believe in a Heaven on earth/Hell on earth concept much more than a physical afterlife guestlist.

The Christian faith certainly is not "unreasonable" as God Himself has endowed us with reason and intends for us to use it. But there is a point beyond which our limited human reason cannot go and we have to admit that some things are beyond our comprehension. We can only know about God what He has revealed about Himself. Created human reason cannot possibly comprehend the uncreated God.
The most basic distinction in (Orthodox) Christian theology is the difference between what is uncreated (God) and created (everything else that has been created by God.) God is the source of all existence, reason, and sanctification, that ,as I mentioned before we receive only in communion with God. As we distance ourselves from God we lose them. Our relationship with God isn't ethical (Do good and you'll go to heaven - do wrong and you'll go to hell.) Our relationship with God is ontological, in other words, it has to do with our very being, our existence, nature. The purpose of our lives is not simply to have a sentimental relationship with God, but to be truly united to God with all our being.
We often hear people talking about God's "Grace" and how "Grace comes through Jesus Christ" etc, but what is Grace and why do we need it? Here we come the second important distinction in (Orthodox) Christian theology, that between essence (also called nature) and energy (Grace). Divine nature/essence it what makes God God and is completely incomprehensible to our created reason. Human nature is what makes us human. So if God's nature/essence is incomprehensible to us and we cannot even know it, then how can we be united to God? We are united to God by participating in His uncreated divine Grace/Energy. It is by partaking of God's divine Grace/Energy that all creatures have their existence and life.

The Three Persons of the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit live in a communion of perfect love and love can only exist when it is shared between persons. Out of God's boundless love he created other persons (the angels and man) to share in this love and live and grow in communion with the three Persons of the Holy Trinity. God created man "according to His image and according to His likeness". "Image" and "likeness" are two different things. What is the image, the model according to which God created man? Jesus Christ is " the image of the invisible God," (Colossians 1:15) the model after which man was created. Why? Because in the person of Jesus Christ the divine and human natures are united and in perfect communion. Man was created so that he too can be united and live in perfect communion with God. The purpose of his life is to become "like God" - to attain the likeness of God. As St Athanasios the Great said "God became man so that man can become god" (1 Peter 1:15-16 "but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." and Matthew 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." ) By being created "according to the image" of God he has the possibility of attaining the likeness of God. Again, attaining the likeness of God isn't something ethical (do good and you'll become like God)

 

[ikonographics]

(This is a continuation of my previous post...my computer jammed)

This process of becoming like God is called theosis or deification. It begins in this life and, in fact never ends because God is boundless. Here it is very important to note that when we say we become like God, this does not mean that our human nature becomes divine nature. What is created cannot become uncreated. When St Athanasios says be become "god", we do not become gods by nature but "gods by Grace" - by participating in God's divine Grace/Energy. The Early Fathers of the Church used the image of a sword in a fire to explain this. When you place a sword in fire, it takes on the properties of the fire. It becomes hot and glows. Likewise when we participate in God's Grace we acquire the attributes of God - love, holiness, goodness etc...
One of the most important attributes man has be being created "according to God's image" is free will. God wants man to choose freely to love Him. If man didn't have free will he would be a robot and there would be no love in his relationship with God. You can force people to do just about anything except to love you. Because we are created (God has brought us "from non-existence into being")- by separating ourselves from God, the source of all existence, life, goodness and sanctification, we could ultimately return to non-existance (tho' God does not allow this). When we depart from communion with God we lose our sanctification, goodness and ultimately our life and suffer both spiritual and physical death. Because of our created nature there is always the possibility of falling away from God, but it is up to us. We chose to live in communion with God or to separate ourselves from God. God is"everywhere present and fills all things" (Orthodox prayer to the Holy Spirit) To be in hell is to be in the presence of God and not to be in communion with God. As the Fathers say God is a fire that illumines those who love Him and burns those who don't.
Because our created human nature has a tendency to fall away from God. The Son of God took on our human nature and forever united it to the divine nature so that by uniting ourselves to Christ we are united to God. This is why Christ is not an ethical role model (the world has had plenty of them and they simply cannot save man.) Jesus Christ was sinless, not because he chose to do good, not wrong, but because His human nature was perfectly united and in communion with His divine nature. By uniting human nature to the divine, He heals it of the consequences of man's fall away from God, which are sin, death and corruption. Death is not something ethical, but ontological. It cannot be overcome be simply living a moral life. Jesus Christ destroyed the power of death by dying in His humanity and rising again, so that those who unite themselves to Him will too overcome death.

 

[ikonographics]

This link might interest you:
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7114.asp

 

[solarwave]

Being unsure about something isn't exactly "not believing"
Couldn't "not understanding" faith just fall under the "mentally challenged" category so you can get a pass into heaven because your heart is in the right place? Or do the "mentally challenged" go to Hell because they can't "mentally" grasp the concepts of heaven, hell, damnation, redemption and God?

I answered this in my first post in this thread.

 

[FollowTheLamb]

How does God/Christianity view the agnostic perspective?
Is acceptance of the unknown "ok" in the eyes of God?

If you practice all the teachings/ideas of Christ, live a humble, helpful and selfless "Christian" path but remain unsure, or even unconcerned, with the details of what happens after death, will you be left behind?

Can one's selfless "Christian" habits on earth outweigh the necessity of written technicalities?

For example: Can a person who spends their entire life helping others and living a humble and helpful life but does not focus on the details of religious practice/faith be judged over someone who lived a horrible, abusive, selfish life that fearfully just accepts faith in Christ upon their deathbed?

It helps to understand how God sees us. God's desire is to see men and women come into a right relationship with Him and continue in that relationship, throughout life becoming more like His Son, Jesus. In the end, He wants men and women of such caliber that they may co-reign with Christ in His kingdom. Only be obedience and faith will we be transformed into the image of His Son; to be fit to rule as His bride will require the power of the Holy Spirit, because sin will trip us up without Him.

If you do some good works, will you become someone who loves God? No. If you do your own thing, knowing that God values obedience, will God accept it? No. If you love your sin, will you become more like Jesus, who hated sin? No.

Your question is based on ignorance of God's purposes for humanity. You have to start with His revealed purposes in order to ask questions that can be answered fully.

Is acceptance of the unknown OK with God? We don't know everything, but acceptance of what God requires that will transform us into the image of Christ is not OK.

" If you practice all the teachings/ideas of Christ..." It is impossible to practice ALL the teachings of Christ without the power of the Holy Spirit and sincere obedience to Him. This person will not be unconcerned with what happens after death. An unregenerate person cannot keep God's commandments - Rom. 8:6.

"Can one's selfless "Christian" habits on earth..." The Bible says that all have sinned, and that our hearts are deceitfully wicked. If you assume otherwise, that you can be selfless like Christ was but without Christ, you are making God a liar, and that is a very big strike against you!

"...someone who lived a horrible, abusive, selfish life that fearfully just accepts faith in Christ upon their deathbed?" The Bible answered this already in the story of the thief asking Jesus to remember him in His kingdom. Jesus told this man that he will be with Him in Paradise. However, this man will not reign with Christ in the kingdom.