God’s relationship with people

[Kaitsu]

I would like to explore in this topic what the bible and Martin Luther have to say about the nature and extent of man’s relationship with God before, during, and after coming to believe in God.


Firstly, the Book of Concord says:

“7] in spiritual and divine things the intellect, heart, and will of the unregenerate man are utterly unable, by their own natural powers, to understand, believe, accept, think, will, begin, effect, do, work, or concur in working anything, but they are entirely dead to what is good, and corrupt, so that in man's nature since the Fall, before regeneration, there is not the least spark of spiritual power remaining, nor present, by which, of himself, he can prepare himself for God's grace, or accept the offered grace, nor be capable of it for and of himself, or apply or accommodate himself thereto, or by his own powers be able of himself, as of himself, to aid, do, work, or concur in working anything towards his conversion, either wholly, or half, or in any, even the least or most inconsiderable part; but that he is the servant [and slave] of sin”

This seems to suggest that the unregenerate man is entirely in God’s hands concerning coming to faith and has no personal input to the process whatsoever. However, the bible says:

“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle–I am telling the truth, I am not lying–and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. 1 Tim 2:3-7


“Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD , I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.” Ezek 33:11

Therefore, if God is the only input to, and controller of, man’s spiritual awareness, and Jesus is the ransom for all men, there is nothing to stop God from fulfilling his wish that all men be saved. However, according to the bible this is not so…….



So it seems to me that something is missing here. What is it, then, that saves some and not others?


Luther’s claim that man’s spiritual awakening is totally dependent on God is not based on a claim that man has no freewill whatsoever and therefore cannot do anything of his own accord. He accepts that man does have freewill but that it is unable to work anything in spiritual and divine matters. But apart from these areas, we are told that:

26] Reason and free will are able to a certain extent to live an outwardly decent life.....

31] The Apology (Art. XVIII) teaches thus of free will: [We do not deny liberty to the human will.] We also say that reason has, to a certain extent, a free will; for in the things which are to be comprehended by reason [as such] we have a free will [liberty in the choice of works and things]…….Therefore, although we concede that it is within our ability to perform such an outward work [we concede to free will the liberty and power to perform the outward works of the Law], nevertheless, we say that in spiritual things [truly to fear God, truly to believe in God] the free will and reason have no ability, etc. Here it is clearly seen that the Apology ascribes no ability to the will of man, either for beginning good or for operating of itself.

So man does have a will. And that will is free in worldly matters of intellect and reason, but is incapable of belief in God or doing good.

However, Luther does concede that man’s freewill does provide him with the ability to decide to listen to Scripture or to resist (although even in turning to Scriptures man will not find faith by himself therein):

53] This Word man can externally hear and read, even though he is not yet converted to God and regenerate; for in these external things, as said above, man even since the Fall has to a certain extent a free will, so that he can go to church and hear or not hear the sermon.

Luther also refers those who “wish to be saved” as needing to hear the Gospel:

52] Now, all who wish to be saved ought to hear this preaching [of God's Word]. For the preaching and hearing of God's Word are instruments of the Holy Ghost, by, with, and through which He desires to work efficaciously, and to convert men to God, and to work in them both to will and to do.

This “wishing to” clearly occurs before conversion, as it opens the door for the Holy Spirit to work “and to convert men to God”. This also seems to align with this verse from Acts:

“God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. Acts 17:27”

However, this does not conflict with Luther’s claim that man cannot himself achieve anything in the spiritual or divine realm since it is strictly limited to simply wanting to know, which does not require actual belief.

Luther also says that man can choose to do the opposite and refuse the Word, and that it is in this turning away that man seals his fate:

57] But if a man will not hear preaching nor read God's Word, but despises the Word and congregation of God, and thus dies and perishes in his sins, he neither can comfort himself with God's eternal election nor obtain His mercy; for Christ, in whom we are chosen, offers to all men His grace in the Word and holy Sacraments, and wishes earnestly that it be heard, and has promised that where two or three are gathered together in His name and are occupied with His holy Word, He will be in their midst.



He seals his own fate because God does not chase after those that do not have a love for the Truth and are willing to hear it, rather God allows them and even deludes them into believing their own lie:

“and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness". 2Thess 2:10-12

I guess this will do for a start – I would sincerely like to here your views on this topic. I am certainly only a novice regarding Luther and wish to learn much more…..

Keith

 

[Jim47]

This in my eyes is perhaps one of the hardest teachings there is to fully understand. I know they are many others here more qualified to answer than me, but I will offer some scripture and perhaps a few thoughts.

Ps 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. Ps 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. s 14:3 All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Jer 31:31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Jer 31:32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,’" declares the LORD. Jer 31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Jer 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Jer 31:35 This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night,who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD Almighty is his name: Jer 31:36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."
Jer 31:37 This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the LORD. Jer 31:38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."


Ac 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53 you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

Lk 10:16 "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Lk 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Lk 10:22 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Ps 40:3 He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the LORD. Ps 40:4 Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.
Pr 16:5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
Pr 16:5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.

I guess you can see from the scripture what I believe, that The Lord seeks the meek and lowly and humble of heart, those who are not proud in their own minds and who are willing to dare to believe in God.

There is much more scripture that pertains to this, and scripture is what I prefer to study.

 

[Kaitsu]

Ps 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. Ps 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. s 14:3 All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

This passage certainly seems to align with Luther´s view of the unregenerate man:

"12] Therefore the Scriptures deny to the intellect, heart, and will of the natural man all aptness, skill, capacity, and ability to think, to understand, to be able to do, to begin, to will, to undertake, to act, to work or to concur in working anything good and right in spiritual things as of himself."

Whereas, on the other hand:

Ac 7:51

"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53 you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

Lk 10:16 "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

.....these passages grant man the ability to turn their backs on God - but how could that be if God is solely in control of man's spiritual things? The term "reject" doesn't mean "cannot hear" it means "has heard and has denied it". This is the part that seems to conflict with the general description of Lutheran views.

Lk 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Lk 10:22 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

I think these verses clearly demonstrate how God works within the person. It is not being wise or learned which is the problem, but the use of these talents to try to analyse God. A wise person is just as capable of being worked upon by God, but only once his attitude towards God is like that of a child. It is clear from these verses that only God is in control - and that he is only going to "start work" once we have got the right openness and humility before God. Butthe question is still open about how much we are ourselves in control of getting our attitude right.....

I guess you can see from the scripture what I believe, that The Lord seeks the meek and lowly and humble of heart, those who are not proud in their own minds and who are willing to dare to believe in God.

There is much more scripture that pertains to this, and scripture is what I prefer to study.

I agree with you. And it is a terrible shame that in many cases it is only through tragedy and suffering, once the rug of worldly comfort is pulled out from beneath us, that we are finally brought down to that level.

I think you are perfectly correct that Scripture is the starting point in faith and also the overiding authority on any issue. But Luther was a great biblical scholar and much of what he says appears to be in line with Scripture. That is why I also like to compare his works with Scripture.

Thanks for the input, Jim .

What do you think of this passage regarding faith and the working of the Holy Spirit:

" While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John's baptism,” they replied. Paul said, “John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all. Acts 19:1-7

This appears to state that these disciples believed even before they received the Holy Spirit - which conflicts with Luther. However, I suspect what this shows us is that the Holy Spirit can work in people even without them recognising it. The fact that the Holy Spirit came on them when Paul placed his hands on them may only indicate the Holy Spirit granting them gifts of the Spirit.

I find this possibility very comforting because I see many people in this world who do good even though they are not Christians. For example, there are humanitarian workers who are voluntarily working in areas of appalling suffering and catastrophe that are inspired (apaarently) solely by a love and compassion for their fellow humans. Although they may deny the existence of God, it does not necessarily mean that the Holy Spirit is not at work in them - and it is only a matter of time before......


Keith

 

[Jim47]

What do you think of this passage regarding faith and the working of the Holy Spirit:

" While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John's baptism,” they replied. Paul said, “John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all. Acts 19:1-7

This appears to state that these disciples believed even before they received the Holy Spirit - which conflicts with Luther. However, I suspect what this shows us is that the Holy Spirit can work in people even without them recognising it. The fact that the Holy Spirit came on them when Paul placed his hands on them may only indicate the Holy Spirit granting them gifts of the Spirit.

I find this possibility very comforting because I see many people in this world who do good even though they are not Christians. For example, there are humanitarian workers who are voluntarily working in areas of appalling suffering and catastrophe that are inspired (apaarently) solely by a love and compassion for their fellow humans. Although they may deny the existence of God, it does not necessarily mean that the Holy Spirit is not at work in them - and it is only a matter of time before......


Keith

To attempt to answer your question asked of Paul, as to wheter they recieved the Holy Spirit, I believe the answer would be they were not baptised as you and I were, in The name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. They were baptized the same as John's baptism, a baptism of repentance. I believe I have read there are some churches (not Lutheran) that still use this same baptism, these chucrhes then at some point have what they call "an alter call" where they are baptised into The Holy Spirit, but not sure if its the same that Lutherans do or not. God can create faith in a mans heart without baptism, but baptism is also a means bu which The Holy Spirit works faith in an adult man or woman or infants heart.

The confusing part for me about these other churches is that they preach a life of following God's will and obeying the commandments but completely overlook that one most important commandment.

Mk 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Mk 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Why would anyone not heed this?

As for your other question about non believers doing what "we" call good works, truely only God can judge, but He has also told us Hebrews 11 :6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

All mans righteousness are as filthy rags. Our works are pleaseing to God only because we have been cleansed by the blood of Christ and we have become His own.

 

[Kaitsu]

To attempt to answer your question asked of Paul, as to wheter they recieved the Holy Spirit, I believe the answer would be they were not baptised as you and I were, in The name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. They were baptized the same as John's baptism, a baptism of repentance.

Yes, this is what the passage describes. However, if this really means that the Holy Spirit was not in them, then what I find disturbing about this is that "John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. Mark 1:4,5

So did none of these people receive the Holy Spirit? Did they all need to be baptised again?

As for your other question about non believers doing what "we" call good works, truely only God can judge, but He has also told us Hebrews 11 :6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

All mans righteousness are as filthy rags. Our works are pleaseing to God only because we have been cleansed by the blood of Christ and we have become His own.

Yes, and that is why I wonder at such people, because they are doing exactly what Jesus said about the Good Samaritan "Go and do likewise", and yet sometimes they claim to be atheist. Such works cannot be described as filthy rags, when Jesus says “‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." Matt 25:40. That is why I suspect the Holy Spirit is working in them even though they do not identify it yet.

Keith

 

[SPALATIN]

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Yes, this is what the passage describes. However, if this really means that the Holy Spirit was not in them, then what I find disturbing about this is that "John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. Mark 1:4,5

So did none of these people receive the Holy Spirit? Did they all need to be baptised again?

The people who came to John for baptism were being Baptized to the Jewish faith. They were not being baptized by the Holy Spirit at that time. Christ did not give us baptism as a means of Grace until after his death when he gave it to disciples in the Great Commission. (Matt 28:19)

least[/b] of these brothers of mine, you did for me." Matt 25:40. That is why I suspect the Holy Spirit is working in them even though they do not identify it yet.

Keith

I suppose in some way shape or form man can have his good moments and do something nice for someone, but if you know they are an atheist wouldn't you wonder about their motive for such action. Also God can use atheists for his good.

Scott

 

[Kaitsu]

Wow, is it my browser, or did your post go way off the page to the right? ( in a physical sense only ). If so, how did you do that?

You wrote:

The people who came to John for baptism were being Baptized to the Jewish faith. They were not being baptized by the Holy Spirit at that time. Christ did not give us baptism as a means of Grace until after his death when he gave it to disciples in the Great Commission. (Matt 28:19)

Were they really baptised into Judaism? I don't really understand what that means? I thought they were simply baptised into repentence as a means of preparing them to be able to recognise Christ when he came. If they were baptised into Judaism, why wasn't this instituted on Mount Sinai? But either way, this still leaves open the question whether they all needed to be baptised again in the Spirit - or was it automatic?

I suppose in some way shape or form man can have his good moments and do something nice for someone, but if you know they are an atheist wouldn't you wonder about their motive for such action. Also God can use atheists for his good.

I think this is underestimating the good work that some people do. Devoting one's life to helping others, be it nursing, red cross, or whatever, is a little more than a few good moments. Not that I would argue they are earning points before God through good works!

I just find it difficult to equate such warm-hearted people with Luther's statement that people without God are captive to Satan and incapable of doing anything good. Also, I would not think that people even risk their lives in helping others from purely selfish motives or some other devious tactic. Afterall, the bible says:

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

But some people do just this, in spite of being atheist - at least on the surface....

Keith

 

[SPALATIN]

Wow, is it my browser, or did your post go way off the page to the right? ( in a physical sense only ). If so, how did you do that?

You wrote:


Were they really baptised into Judaism? I don't really understand what that means? I thought they were simply baptised into repentence as a means of preparing them to be able to recognise Christ when he came. If they were baptised into Judaism, why wasn't this instituted on Mount Sinai? But either way, this still leaves open the question whether they all needed to be baptised again in the Spirit - or was it automatic?

No, though John's preaching was to point the way to Christ. Baptism has been a part of the Jewish faith for Centuries before that and was especially used at that time to bring converts to their faith and cleanse them from the sins of their paganistic ways. John only compared his Baptism as much less than the Baptism that Christ was to institute after his death and resurrection.

I think this is underestimating the good work that some people do. Devoting one's life to helping others, be it nursing, red cross, or whatever, is a little more than a few good moments. Not that I would argue they are earning points before God through good works!

I just find it difficult to equate such warm-hearted people with Luther's statement that people without God are captive to Satan and incapable of doing anything good. Also, I would not think that people even risk their lives in helping others from purely selfish motives or some other devious tactic. Afterall, the bible says:

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

But some people do just this, in spite of being atheist - at least on the surface....

Keith

There you have said it they are doing good works, but are they doing it because it came from God or is it to earn recognition at a banquet as a good citizen. A Christian does works not to grant favor for himself but to bring Glory to God. And he can only do this because God has enabled him through the Holy Spirit.

If one is not a Christian, but appears to do good works what is his reward? He will be given money or notoriety for those deeds and he/she knows that. It is a purely selfish motive. But if God calls you to perform a good work for him are you ready and willing to do it for no personal gain whatsoever, in fact you may end up with personal loss even your own life.

So the question to ask an athiest is what's in it for you? I would very surprised if they said "nothing"

 

[Kaitsu]

No, though John's preaching was to point the way to Christ. Baptism has been a part of the Jewish faith for Centuries before that and was especially used at that time to bring converts to their faith and cleanse them from the sins of their paganistic ways. John only compared his Baptism as much less than the Baptism that Christ was to institute after his death and resurrection.

Thanks Scott, I didn't know that baptism had been practised before in the Jewish faith - I have actually often wondered when reading the bible how John managed to get people to come to be baptised from all over Judea without people having any idea what the principle of baptism actually involved. I have read that a similar concept of cleansing was performed as a pagan ritual (as was eating with Gods), but not in Judaism. Thanks for the info. - But I am still left wondering why, then, those disciples in Ephesus needed to be baptised again in the Spirit because they "only" had John's baptism, if all the others receiving John's baptism did not.

There you have said it they are doing good works, but are they doing it because it came from God or is it to earn recognition at a banquet as a good citizen. A Christian does works not to grant favor for himself but to bring Glory to God. And he can only do this because God has enabled him through the Holy Spirit.

If one is not a Christian, but appears to do good works what is his reward? He will be given money or notoriety for those deeds and he/she knows that. It is a purely selfish motive. But if God calls you to perform a good work for him are you ready and willing to do it for no personal gain whatsoever, in fact you may end up with personal loss even your own life.

This is typically what gets atheists very annoyed - and I must confess I agree with them entirely. I know a number of atheist voluntary workers, some of whom even work with the church projects. For example, one group of men where I live regularly spend their work holidays going into Russia to help build churches. They are not Christians, but they believe the church helps in building and maintaining the moral fabric of society. They want to help other people in areas collapsing under mass unemployment, crime, child abuse, drugs, alcoholism, family violence, corruption, etc. If you were to go up to them and accuse them of selfish motivation and doing it only for what they personally get out of it, they would just look at you with pity in their eyes and get on with the work.

Atheists are not just ogres and corrupt animals prowling around this globe looking for personal gain at everyone else's expense. They, too, are capable of love, compassion, generosity, and respect for other people. In fact, they are often more like the human nature that Jesus describes than many religious people who spend all their time in books and fireside comfort, whilst ignoring the suffering that is going on all around them.

So the question to ask an athiest is what's in it for you? I would very surprised if they said "nothing"

So would I be surprised. Nothing means nothing. They certainly do not do it for nothing. But if we were to interview voluntary workers returning from the asian flood areas, it seems you would expect them to give you list of personal benefits (maybe some tax deductable), whereas I would expect them to talk of fulfilling an inner urge and need to help fellow humans in distress, not being able to sit on the side doing nothing whilst watching such suffering when one is capable of offering help.

I live in a lakeland area and the lakes are all deeply frozen in the winter, such that even lorries can drive across them. But every spring as the thaw comes there are stories of people falling through the ice. Some drown, some are saved. Are we to understand that whenever this happens the only people who rush to help, whilst risking their own lives, are the Christians? And that all the atheists will just stand there and watch because there is nothing in it for them - unless there is a reward offered or a newspaper reporter standing nearby?

The Good Samaritan was not a Christian.

Keith

 

[Jim47]

Keith, I can see that you are struggling with understanding how an athesist can not do good works in God's eyes. I too struggled with understanding this for many years, but we can not deny the scripture and what God has told us.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.



If it were possible to please God without faith, then Jesus would not have had to offer Himself up as a sacrifice for us, because we would have a way to earn God's righteousness without Jesus.

Sometimes we are unable to understand these things until after we believe them. Does that make sence? What I am saying is that I believe that God opens our eyes to the truth once we have submitted ourtselves to His teachings without questioning them. He blesses us because we have become like little children who have placed their whole trust in Him.

Jn 3:31 "The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."

 

[Fish and Bread]

My perspective is that God can work through those who accept him in any of his forms. If an atheist believes in love, truth, or light, then he or she to a certain extent believes in the God who is those things, even if he or she rejects the concept of God as a theist knows God. Christ is known by many names, though he is still Christ, even for people who's eyes are shielded from knowing that he is Christ. Whether these folks know God enough to be granted salvation is up to God, but I think the fruits they bear do indicate that they at least know God to a certain extent and are granted graces despite their lack of belief in the totality of his being.

After all, who among us knows God perfectly? As Christians, we have been given the great gift of knowing God as he is to a greater extent than an atheist, but all mortals have incomplete views of God to one extent or another. God does where he wills and bestows graces on who he wills. We are saved by grace through our faith, but whether God has a conservative or a liberal view of what defines faith and whether or not he will see fit to save those who know him but don't call on his name we simply don't know. I'm inclined to think that they will be saved also, trusting in the love and the mercy of God.

John

 

[CrossWiseMag]

This is typically what gets atheists very annoyed - and I must confess I agree with them entirely. I know a number of atheist voluntary workers, some of whom even work with the church projects. For example, one group of men where I live regularly spend their work holidays going into Russia to help build churches. They are not Christians, but they believe the church helps in building and maintaining the moral fabric of society. They want to help other people in areas collapsing under mass unemployment, crime, child abuse, drugs, alcoholism, family violence, corruption, etc. If you were to go up to them and accuse them of selfish motivation and doing it only for what they personally get out of it, they would just look at you with pity in their eyes and get on with the work.

When it comes to an unbeliever, it really doesn't matter what the motivation is. It is simply impossible for an unbeliever to do a good work. That includes works done for completely unselfish reasons. Without faith in Christ, there is no "good work." Holy Scripture is very clear on that, as Jim pointed out with his citation of Hebrews 11:6.

Does this mean we need to denigrate the "outwardly righteous" acts of unbelievers? Not necessarily. They contribute to society. They help others. That's great for us, but it avails them nothing toward God.

What they need to understand is that the work of Christians is no better than their work, in and of itself. It is only because the Christian has Christ attached to his work that it is good in the eyes of God. And so if I am building a Habitat for Humanity house next to an unbeliever, we may both be hammering nails, but my work is presented to God in the clothing of Christ, but the unbeliever's is not. And the only way for the unbeliever next to me to please God is to have that righteousness of Christ clothing him and his work, too.

The good news is that Christ's righteousness is freely available, and it's being handed out by Christ's church in Word and Sacraments.

 

[SPALATIN]

My perspective is that God can work through those who accept him in any of his forms. If an atheist believes in love, truth, or light, then he or she to a certain extent believes in the God who is those things, even if he or she rejects the concept of God as a theist knows God. Christ is known by many names, though he is still Christ, even for people who's eyes are shielded from knowing that he is Christ. Whether these folks know God enough to be granted salvation is up to God, but I think the fruits they bear do indicate that they at least know God to a certain extent and are granted graces despite their lack of belief in the totality of his being.

After all, who among us knows God perfectly? As Christians, we have been given the great gift of knowing God as he is to a greater extent than an atheist, but all mortals have incomplete views of God to one extent or another. God does where he wills and bestows graces on who he wills. We are saved by grace through our faith, but whether God has a conservative or a liberal view of what defines faith and whether or not he will see fit to save those who know him but don't call on his name we simply don't know. I'm inclined to think that they will be saved also, trusting in the love and the mercy of God.

John

How Ecumenical of you. An athiest has rejected the idea that God even exists and can not be saved in that condition. We receive God, we do not "accept" him. That would be works to merit salvation. You are correct that God does where he will and bestows Grace on whom he wills. Yes we are saved by Grace through faith. "Not all who call out Lord, Lord will be saved." Christ himself said that.

 

[CrossWiseMag]

We are saved by grace through our faith, but whether God has a conservative or a liberal view of what defines faith and whether or not he will see fit to save those who know him but don't call on his name we simply don't know.

Why would anyone have faith in a Christ who they make to be a liar? After all, Christ claimed to be the ONLY way to the father.

Why would anyone have faith in a God who is such a bungling communicator that He can't adequately tell us what we need to know to be saved by Him? A God who presents a message of the exclusivity of Christ, even though that's not true?

There's a very interesting article at Pastor Paul McCain's blog (http://paulmccain.worldmagblog.com/paulmccain/) about why the European church is in such disarray. It's because it's teaching stuff like this, rather than Christianity.

 

[Fish and Bread]

How Ecumenical of you.

Ecumenicism is not a dirty word. Christ calls us to be unified with one another.

An athiest has rejected the idea that God even exists and can not be saved in that condition.

The bible says that it is not for us to judge those outside of the faith. Jesus will do the judging. Personally, I tend to think that our God, who is love and mercy personified, may save more than those who we think he will save. Of course, to be on the safe side, everyone would be best serving receiving Christ as their Savior, the one in whom direct and living faith in whom is a biblical guarantee of salvation.

We receive God, we do not "accept" him.

I agree with you. I misphrased my initial post.

John

 

[revjpw]

My perspective is that God can work through those who accept him in any of his forms.

No one "accepts" God. John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, I chose you."
God can only be known through Jesus Christ. If they do not know, or if they reject Christ, they cannot know God. Does Judaism know God? No, because they reject Christ. Jesus said in John 14:6, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." If they do not know Jesus or reject Him as God the Son, then they cannot know God at all. the same is true for Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, etc.

After all, who among us knows God perfectly? As Christians, we have been given the great gift of knowing God as he is to a greater extent than an atheist, but all mortals have incomplete views of God to one extent or another.

All humans have a natural knowledge of God. That would equate to a sense of knowing right from wrong. Even atheists know this much. Can this natural knowledge save? No. Only belief in Jesus Christ saves.
That an atheist can do a good work ultimately originates with God. It is the product of that natural knowledge. Man cannot do good on his own, whether he is a Christian or not. God uses all good works for His purpose. We just cannot see His full purpose as yet.


DaRev

 

[Fish and Bread]

Why would anyone have faith in a Christ who they make to be a liar? After all, Christ claimed to be the ONLY way to the father.

Christ is our one and only mediator and he will be the one who judges us on Judgement Day. So, yes, he is the only way to the Father. I don't see how the precludes someone who does not know his name in this life from being saved through Christ, though, if it is God's will.

John

 

[SPALATIN]

Christ is our one and only mediator and he will be the one who judges us on Judgement Day. So, yes, he is the only way to the Father. I don't see how the precludes someone who does not know his name in this life from being saved through Christ, though, if it is God's will.

John

While it would be up to the efficacious grace of our Lord to do so it is hardly likely to happen except in the case of a newborn. Those that do not receive him in this life are not likely to get the rest of eternity to be with him.

If their name is not written in the Book of Life they will not be invited to attend the party.

 

[Fish and Bread]

While it would be up to the efficacious grace of our Lord to do so it is hardly likely to happen except in the case of a newborn. Those that do not receive him in this life are not likely to get the rest of eternity to be with him.

If their name is not written in the Book of Life they will not be invited to attend the party.

How do we know who's name is not written on the Book of Life? We're told not to judge lest we ourselves be judged. I'm not saying all non-Christians who live righteous lives are definitely saved, but rather simply that it would be within the revealed character of our loving and merciful God to save them, given that it was his grace that made then live that way in the first place. We know that God desires the salvation of all people. It makes sense to me that he would always be looking for ways to get folks in the back door.

John

 

[SPALATIN]

How do we know who's name is not written on the Book of Life? We're told not to judge lest we ourselves be judged. I'm not saying all non-Christians who live righteous lives are definitely saved, but rather simply that it would be within the revealed character of our loving and merciful God to save them, given that it was his grace that made then live that way in the first place. We know that God desires the salvation of all people. It makes sense to me that he would always be looking for ways to get folks in the back door.

John

I don't think that you understand his Grace very well. His Grace is given only to those whom he has chosen through faith in his Son and what his Son did for us on the Cross. Jesus said that "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) Yes, he is loving and and merciful to those who call upon his name now. Once they die it is just too late. I am not judging them but quoting scriptures which you yourself seem to have neglected. If anything they judge themselves and put their eternal life in jeopardy by not receiving him now.

God's grace is not given out to just everyone and especially not to someone who has seemingly rejected him. There is no back door only a narrow one and you have to know the Password. Which is what evangelism is all about spreading the news that Christ is the only way we have to get to heaven.