Go away, your not welcome here ;) (or somthing like that)

Ok, I'll start a new topic. Since I cant take part in a topic that will bring this next comment up a stupid rule, but I'll follow it neither the less.

Its regarding this topic Attending but not believing

that silence_dogood posted in

silence_dogood said:

Church isn't a place for atheists to air their grievances against God and it isn't an open forum for non-Christians to try to convince us of the errors of our ways. It's a place for the Body of Christ to gather to worship our God and I would hope you'd be grown up enough to respect that.

You say it's narrow minded, but I say that there's something really dispicable about a person who can't even respect people's right to worship in peace, without having to defend their religion in their own house of worship.

Click to expand...

Ok, what gives? Why start a new topic over this.

I read a interesting blog Who is this Jesus Guy Anyway???

I'll quote one sentence

Saucy said:

I've encountered countless people in my life who were turned off to Christ because of the way other Christians have treated him or her.

Click to expand...

Enough said?

I'm trying to find the truth, but when I read things like this, I get really worked up :<

Someone who is a non-believer/atheist going to church for the sole purpose of airing out his/her grievances against God even to the point of proclaiming there is no God.

So the question is:

Should or should not this person be allowed to attend church?

Am I getting the jest of what you are asking?

Thats sums it up.

there is a chance, "his/her" "Soul" can be saved. I thought you guys believe in Miracles. So technically anything is possible. What if he/she hears something that will change his/her life?

But I was also trying to point out the hostility being shown?

If the person is being disruptive and/or disrespectful, then he/she should be asked to leave.

Other than that...I hope to see this person every Sunday.

Xeno32 said:

Ok, I'll start a new topic. Since I cant take part in a topic that will bring this next comment up a stupid rule, but I'll follow it neither the less.

Its regarding this topic Attending but not believing

that silence_dogood posted in

Ok, what gives? Why start a new topic over this.

I read a interesting blog Who is this Jesus Guy Anyway???

I'll quote one sentence



Enough said?

I trying to find the truth, but when I read things like this, I get really worked up :<

Click to expand...

And if that's their excuse, then it wasn't Jesus they were looking for in the first place.

If I were in a house that was on fire, there is nothing that could stop me from getting to a door or a window. I wouldn't refuse to go through the door because I didn't like the carpenter who built the house. Knowing that I was going to die and that the door was my only means of escape, I would scratch and claw and fight and not let anything stand between me and the door. Not the carpenter who built the house, not the shoddy way the bed was made up, not the fact that I didn't like the picture on the wall. The door would be my goal and I would never stop until I got to it.

In the same way, if one is really seeking Christ, then they're going to look to Christ as their goal and they're not going to stop. I think of the crippled man who's friends lowered him in through a hole in the roof so that he could see Jesus. Or the woman with the affliction of blood who would not stop until she touched the hem of His garment. Or the Roman consul, who when he could not find Jesus, himself, sent his servants out to look for him.

I hear people say all the time, "Oh, I'd like to be a Christian, but there are just too many rules" or "I'm not a Christian because Christians are mean". People won't come to church because they don't like the music or the preacher is boring or the service is too long or there's never a parking space...

In this very forum, we see people all the time who say things like "I want to be a Christian, but one verse says Judas hung himself and another says that Judas fell off a cliff" or "I would be a Christian except that God can't make a rock so big that He can't lift it".

You don't become a Christian because Christians are nice. The fact is, many are not nice. We're sinners. That's why we need a savior. And you know what? You're really not very nice, either.

You don't become a Christian because you've managed to make God jump through all of your hoops and answer all of your silly illogical questions. You don't become a Christian because you find church to be comforting or a pleasant social experience. You don't become a Christian because your girlfriend is a Christian. You don't become a Christian to fill some "missing piece in your heart".

You become a Christian for one reason and one reason only: because you have come to a place where you are absolutely horrified and repulsed and grieving over your sins before an Holy and Righteous God and you finally realize to your terror that you are going to have to stand before Him and be judged for your sins and you fall down on your knees in repentance and plead with Jesus to save you from the wrath of God.

Anything else is just pretending and playing games with God and God will not hold you blameless.

Like it or not, believe it or not, you're going to stand before God. The question is whether you're going to stand before God as a son who's sins are forgiven and who has inherited eternal life, or whether you're going to stand before God as an enemy who's crimes against the King must be punished.

Sorry, but "I would have been a Christian but Christians were mean to me" simply isn't going to work.

jpcedotal said:

If the person is being disruptive and/or disrespectful, then he/she should be asked to leave.

Click to expand...

True, anyone would do that. Common sense.

But what if he is pointing out why he doesn't believe. Or just goes to make friends? some things cant be said without being disrespectful IMHO. But his/her END goal isn't to make people angry, but to learn? =

silence_dogood said:

And if that's their excuse, then it wasn't Jesus they were looking for in the first place.

Click to expand...

define excuse?

Also, silence_dogood. I didn't mean to single you out, I just want to point out something, that has happened to me too, once. The hostility towards non believers. If I offended you, I'm sorry.

Xeno32 said:

But what if he is pointing out why he doesn't believe. Or just goes to make friends? some things cant be said without being disrespectful IMHO. But his/her END goal isn't to make people angry, but to learn? =

Click to expand...

That's not the appropriate place or time to air your diagreements. Although we welcome visitors, we also hope that visitors understand that the purpose of church is not to entertain them or to provide a social outlet for them or to give them an opportunity to express their objections to our religion. The purpose of church is for the Body of Christ to gather to hear the corporate preaching and teaching of God's word, to gather for corporate worship, to gather for the edification of the body, and to practice church discipline. You're an observer.

If you really want to ask questions or state your objections, then you should speak to the pastor privately after the service has concluded.

It's just hard for me to fathom that our society has gotten to the point where atheists won't even respect people in their own houses of worship.

Well, if I should raise my opinions in the middle of a service, that would be rude, and I would expect a swift escort outside, and off the grounds.

But in fact, apart form the service, Church is a place where people, gather. Hence making it a social outlet (selected members only, it would seem)? right?

What is so wrong going to a place, like church, to meet new people? is it a sin?

sigh, I've never been good at explaining my thoughts, this just proves it.

also, just wondering, what the hell does my parents have to do with this?

Let me point out a few things.

Lets say a person goes to a bar to make friends, he will expect topics like, sport/dating/drinking

Lets say a person goes to a nightclub to make friends, he will be expecting topics like, dancing/drinking/fun

so, what do you think a person, going to church to make friends would expect?

~

Edit 2

Let me be honest, and tell you why this bothers me so much. I recently moved in with my dad, since the job I got, is close to where he lives, it saves me from traveling 120km each day. Its also cheaper for me, since I work full time in the day, and study at night.

When I moved in, I ask my dad and step-mom, to leave me alone, and to not bother me with Church and the likes. Because they both take it quite seriously. But, they honored my request. They didn't bother me, or ask my why I don't go to church, or preach to me. They do throw in the occasional comment like, "oh getting ready for church", or when they have their bible study on odd times ask me if I'd like to sit in because this will be the subject. I normally politely refuse.

But I can see it bothers them, and since they are being so good to me. I thought I might go to church every now and again. But this will be to please them, mostly. but since I am who I am, I like to see the bright side of things, and since I don't know anyone in this town (I grew up with my mom, I barely know my dad) I might as well make some friends.

So why is this so wrong?

Xeno32 said:

sigh, I've never been good at explaining my thoughts, this just proves it.

also, just wondering, what the hell does my parents have to do with this?

Let me point out a few things.

Lets say a person goes to a bar to make friends, he will expect topics like, sport/dating/drinking

Lets say a person goes to a nightclub to make friends, he will be expecting topics like, dancing/drinking/fun

so, what do you think a person, going to church to make friends would expect?

~

Edit 2

Let me be honest, and tell you why this bothers me so much. I recently moved in with my dad, since the job I got, is close to where he lives, it saves me from traveling 120km each day. Its also cheaper for me, since I work full time in the day, and study at night.

When I moved in, I ask my dad and step-mom, to leave me alone, and to not bother me with Church and the likes. Because they both take it quite seriously. But, they honored my request. They didn't bother me, or ask my why I don't go to church, or preach to me. They do throw in the occasional comment like, "oh getting ready for church", or when they have their bible study on odd times ask me if I'd like to sit in because this will be the subject. I normally politely refuse.

But I can see it bothers them, and since they are being so good to me. I thought I might go to church every now and again. But this will be to please them, mostly. but since I am who I am, I like to see the bright side of things, and since I don't know anyone in this town (I grew up with my mom, I barely know my dad) I might as well make some friends.

So why is this so wrong?

Click to expand...

no not wrong at all. I am from the side that any reason that causes one go to church is good enough for me...as long as the person is respectful in church. Neither the church nor the Christians in the church will do any "converting", but the Holy Spirit will if you let Him...and He loves to whisper and make Himself known in a good Christian church. I think you wanting to go to church to please (honor) your parents is a excellent reason.

I started going to church for my kids, period. I was already saved before this, but went just because I did not want to be the one who did not show them who Jesus is. The more I went though, the more I went for the right reasons....but it didn't start out that way.

Go to church to meet people.
Go to church for the food.
Go to church because someone else wants you to.
Go to church cause you like dressing up
Go to church for the free Bible.
Go to church cause you just aint got anything else to do on Sunday mornings before the NFL games start.
Go to church just to see what all the fuss is about.
Go to church to find all the "loop-holes" in Christianity.

Just go to church...lol

Why do you think churches have so many eatins and camps and vacation Bible schools? To give someone a reason to come...any reason will do, because my God can handle it from there.

Xeno32 thank you for starting this thread. it is rich soil for productive discussion! W/o knowing it, you are reminding this body of believers of a VERY important aspect of our own Faith - "they shall know we are Christians by our love."

Brothers and Sisters, please let's all humble ourselves at least to the point where we recognize the O/P is right about the fact that as a body we fail this more often than not. "Woe is me, for I am a man of unclean lips, and am of a people of unclean lips." Do you remember who wrote that? If he can say that, surely we are no better. Not nearly as good, more like it.

I also want to point out how important Xeno32's sincerity is re: asking his original question. He seems to me to be a reasonable chap who isn't expecting boisterous, rude or disruptive behavior to be tolerated in a worship setting. MY opinion is that it is VERY MUCH not just ok but even NEEDED to "air your complaints against God." Assuming you've exhausted every other avenue. And I think I have the Spirit of God.

There is much, much Scripture to this effect, and rather than posting it all I leave room for discussion, but I'll be perfectly transparent:

we want people like Xeno32 in our midst so the Holy spirit can rub off of US, and onto Him. If the fruit unbelievers see/feel/hear is rejection, how does Jesus view US? "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

What I look for in a Church is to FEEL the love of God when I enter the place, first and foremost. Especially mid-week, when there are no services going on. Not to dismiss sound teaching, but ...

silence_dogood said:

And if that's their excuse, then it wasn't Jesus they were looking for in the first place.

If I were in a house that was on fire, there is nothing that could stop me from getting to a door or a window. I wouldn't refuse to go through the door because I didn't like the carpenter who built the house. Knowing that I was going to die and that the door was my only means of escape, I would scratch and claw and fight and not let anything stand between me and the door. Not the carpenter who built the house, not the shoddy way the bed was made up, not the fact that I didn't like the picture on the wall. The door would be my goal and I would never stop until I got to it.

In the same way, if one is really seeking Christ, then they're going to look to Christ as their goal and they're not going to stop. I think of the crippled man who's friends lowered him in through a hole in the roof so that he could see Jesus. Or the woman with the affliction of blood who would not stop until she touched the hem of His garment. Or the Roman consul, who when he could not find Jesus, himself, sent his servants out to look for him.

I hear people say all the time, "Oh, I'd like to be a Christian, but there are just too many rules" or "I'm not a Christian because Christians are mean". People won't come to church because they don't like the music or the preacher is boring or the service is too long or there's never a parking space...

In this very forum, we see people all the time who say things like "I want to be a Christian, but one verse says Judas hung himself and another says that Judas fell off a cliff" or "I would be a Christian except that God can't make a rock so big that He can't lift it".

You don't become a Christian because Christians are nice. The fact is, many are not nice. We're sinners. That's why we need a savior. And you know what? You're really not very nice, either.

You don't become a Christian because you've managed to make God jump through all of your hoops and answer all of your silly illogical questions. You don't become a Christian because you find church to be comforting or a pleasant social experience. You don't become a Christian because your girlfriend is a Christian. You don't become a Christian to fill some "missing piece in your heart".

You become a Christian for one reason and one reason only: because you have come to a place where you are absolutely horrified and repulsed and grieving over your sins before an Holy and Righteous God and you finally realize to your terror that you are going to have to stand before Him and be judged for your sins and you fall down on your knees in repentance and plead with Jesus to save you from the wrath of God.

Anything else is just pretending and playing games with God and God will not hold you blameless.

Like it or not, believe it or not, you're going to stand before God. The question is whether you're going to stand before God as a son who's sins are forgiven and who has inherited eternal life, or whether you're going to stand before God as an enemy who's crimes against the King must be punished.

Sorry, but "I would have been a Christian but Christians were mean to me" simply isn't going to work.

Click to expand...

Ok, I didn't notice you edited this wall of text in, quickly read it.

From what I can see, I should become a Follower of Christ, because I should be afraid of his wrath??

Where is the Loving God I been hearing all my life, the Forgiving God, the Merciful God.

I cant sense him anywhere in your text you just wrote.

You make it sound so horrible.

Oh, and my above post still stands.

silence_dogood said:

You're really not very nice, either.

Click to expand...

Who are you to judge me? You know nothing of me.

jpcedotal said:

no not wrong at all. I am from the side that any reason that causes one go to church is good enough for me...as long as the person is respectful in church. Neither the church nor the Christians in the church will do any "converting", but the Holy Spirit will if you let Him...and He loves to whisper and make Himself known in a good Christian church. I think you wanting to go to church to please (honor) your parents is a excellent reason.

I started going to church for my kids, period. I was already saved before this, but went just because I did not want to be the one who did not show them who Jesus is. The more I went though, the more I went for the right reasons....but it didn't start out that way.

Go to church to meet people.
Go to church for the food.
Go to church because someone else wants you to.
Go to church cause you like dressing up
Go to church for the free Bible.
Go to church cause you just aint got anything else to do on Sunday mornings before the NFL games start.
Go to church just to see what all the fuss is about.
Go to church to find all the "loop-holes" in Christianity.

Just go to church...lol

Why do you think churches have so many eatins and camps and vacation Bible schools? To give someone a reason to come...any reason will do, because my God can handle it from there.

Click to expand...

And to church I'll go lol

razeontherock said:

Xeno32 thank you for starting this thread. it is rich soil for productive discussion! W/o knowing it, you are reminding this body of believers of a VERY important aspect of our own Faith - "they shall know we are Christians by our love."

Click to expand...

Thanks.. I guess

Xeno32 said:

From what I can see, I should become a Follower of Christ, because I should be afraid of his wrath??

Click to expand...

No, you should follow Him because He's been so kind to offer you salvation from God's wrath.

Where is the Loving God I been hearing all my life, the Forgiving God, the Merciful God.

Click to expand...

He's the one pleading for you to repent and turn to Christ so that He doesn't have to sentence you to an eternity in Hell.

You make it sound so horrible.

Click to expand...

Unless you repent, it will be horrible.

Oh, and my above post still stands.

Click to expand...

I know. None of you guys ever listen, but we still have an obligation to say it.

Who are you to judge me?

Click to expand...

...says the guy who just made the same judgement about Christians.

silence_dogood said:

...says the guy who just made the same judgement about Christians.

Click to expand...

Where? if I may ask? I was merely pointing out things that bothered me.

I'm kinda slow on things like these. So you will have to spoon feed it to me.


All I sense is hostility. Its human nature, to try and defend oneself.

And for the record, I never, once stated I want to be a Christian. but [various excuses] wont be able too.

Or did any of the nonsense you pointed out in your first post.

I'm merely here, exploring, and willing to learn. I didn't register on this forum to point out why "x' religion is bad/false or untrue, nor demand anything.

Xeno32, what church did you go to?

Xeno32 said:

Well, if I should raise my opinions in the middle of a service, that would be rude, and I would expect a swift escort outside, and off the grounds.

But in fact, apart form the service, Church is a place where people, gather. Hence making it a social outlet (selected members only, it would seem)? right?

What is so wrong going to a place, like church, to meet new people? is it a sin?

Click to expand...

I'd be more than happy for you to turn up.

Xeno

God is love, and our faith is (should be) that we are loved and desired by God. Any church would be very fortunate to have you attend. God never calls us to condemn, only to give thanks to Him. Christ turned no-one away, ever.

Then again, I'm not Christ, and there's such a thing on CF as an ignore function. I've found it to be vital for my survival here.