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Global warming and the end

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eclipsenow

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That's because you don't read what's being said...

Your preconceived notions color what is said...

so indeed...you are confused

You & reading don't get along, do you?
I was obviously pushing the discourse along so you would even attempt to answer the issues in my previous post. But if they're too hard, and it hurts your brain to think these things through a bit, then just take your silly anti-science political prejudices out of this forum and stop pretending you've got genuine theological problems with climate science when you cannot even explain how you allow for obvious environmental destruction in some areas, but object in others.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Global warming and the end

I'm not going to speculate on fossil fuels and such, but I do know that the Bible, regarding the last day, does not seem to indicate that it will be brought about by freezing.
 
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eclipsenow

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I'm not going to speculate on fossil fuels and such, but I do know that the Bible, regarding the last day, does not seem to indicate that it will be brought about by freezing.
Yes, but that Last Day is God's business, not ours. I'm talking about what is our responsibility, and there's no speculation about it... CO2's basic physics were discovered in the 1820's by Joseph Fourier decades before Karl Marx published his Communist Manifesto, so this is hardly a Communist Conspiracy. The science was discovered before Communism was invented.

Meanwhile, June 2013 was the 340th consecutive month of above average global temperatures.

(Biblewriter might disagree with that and will want to show you some unsourced numbers, but they're as trustworthy as his old maps).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Through the late 1960's, early '70's, it was so cold in Canada Scientists were talking about the coming of a mini-iceage; never came, now it's hot, like it was in the mid 1800's. I don't know.

If we have caused it, knowing the way the world works and the way people think; we most likely are past the point of no return.

If such is a normal, long term temperature fluctuation, we can't do much about that either.

Relative to eternity; what does it matter?

We do the best we can with what we are given (stewardship), the rest is in God's hands.
 
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eclipsenow

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Relative to eternity, what does lead pollution really matter? Maybe we should go back to putting it in our fuel. Relative to eternity, what does a little lung cancer matter? Maybe we should let school kids smoke. Etc.

Re: ice age....
1970s ice age predictions were predominantly media based. The majority of peer reviewed research at the time predicted warming due to increasing CO2.
What were climate scientists predicting in the 1970s?

(1970's ice age myth is a Fox News sponsored meme doing the rounds. It's not really your fault that you heard it and gave it some credibility... it's just the way North America & Canada seem to be.)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Yes, lies... despite cold wet summers, and a sequence of winters with temps going weeks on end below -20 C, and snow, not only up to our ying-yangs, but 10' above... in Southern Ontario, about as far south as Northern California.

Regarding the very first part of your post; I guess you missed the part in my post highlighted below (it's always a good idea to read a post in it's entirety before responding):

 
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interpreter

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All of the 7 last plagues are man-made including global warming.
 
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eclipsenow

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Do you have climate statistics that prove the seasons were any colder than others, or do you just stick your head out your window one cold Canada day and think, "Wow, this global warming thing is a bunch of baloney!"

Sorry pal, but aberrant snows in late Spring are actually a sign that an overheated Arctic has reduced the temperature differential that usually sees the Jetstream winds held in a tight circle around the Arctic circle. As that steeper temperature gradient reduces (due to the melting ice sheets changing the albedo), it's like a river spilling down out of steep mountain passes and hitting open flood planes. There's not enough urgency from 'gravity' to pull that river in one straight direction, and so it meanders all over the place. In other words, the Jetstream meandered across the Northern Hemisphere and then dumped a bunch of Arctic weather across the UK and North America. The global temperatures have still been higher than average for 340 months straight!
 
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Biblewriter

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And your wonderful report actually begins by saying, "Robert J. King has suggested that Alfonse’s description of La Grande Jave could also fit.."

I highlighted key word in these statements by putting them in boldface and red.

You are claiming evidence based on suppositions, but I am pointing out clearly visible resemblances.

Perhaps you care to explain why he names part of the Great Southern Land "BRASIELIE REGIO" and the other part "REGIO PATALIS"?
I never even so much as suggested that Oronteus Finaeus was not influenced by current cartographic thought. The highly inaccurate parts of his map are clearly the notions current in his day.

Oh, and I'm right, there really ARE no mountains on the bottom right of the map oriented this way. Dark Green is practically sea-level, and yes, that's a deglaciated map!

If you bother to actually read the legend, you will see that the darkest green is indeed at sea level, but the green used to represent the coastline in question actually represents something on the order of 600 meters (that is almost 2000 feet) above sea level. This would most certainly look like mountains to an ancient sailor sailing along the coast. You also have to realize that this is artwork based on guesses about how far the land mass would rise without the ice.


But you are still ignoring the fact that the map below, which I already posted, which is actually based on measured data shows mountains in that area that are more than 1000 meters above the surrounding area, not just the 600 or so meters shown on the map based on supposition.






But, here's the real kicker. The map is totally out of scale!



The Orontius Finaeus map | Bad Archaeology

Let's check the scale again...



Oopos!
Orenteus Fineaus, and all the other mapmakers of his day, indeed drew Antarctica much too large. Hapgood theorized that this was why they did not draw the Antarctic Peninsula. It just wouldn't fit below the tip of South America, which they knew was there. But it was not nearly as far out of scale as your picture misrepresents.

After much study, Hapgood concluded that the error was that someone, probably long before the time of Oronteus Finaeus, had interpreted a circle intended to represent the 80th parallel as the Antarctic Circle. Indeed, the circle labelled by Oronteus Finaeus as the Antarctic Circle is almost exactly the same size (relative to the continent as a whole) as the eightieth parallel is to the actual continent of Antarctica. So Hapgood assumed that this was actually the eightieth parallel. The scale of his redrawn map was based on that assumption.


Actually the argument that crashes and burns is the one that imagines that the two islands shown by Oronteus Finaeus in the Ross Sea are not the two that are actually in those very locations in the Ross Sea, as shown in the map below:



You find a general resemblance between two islands in a rounded bay and two islands in a clearly angular bay.

On the other hand, simple inspection of the Oronteus Fineaus Map of 1531 shows about 16 points clearly identifiable as points known to exist in Antarctica. But after Hapgood redrew the map based on the assumption mentioned above that Orentius Finaeus' "Arctic Circle was actually the eightieth parallel, plus an assumtion that the original map had been drawn on a polar equidistant projection, more than thirty specific points on the map became identifiable as known points in Antarctica. But then it was discovered if they assumed that the original map had been drawn with curved meridians like those used by Oronteus Finaeus, the number of clearly identifiable points grew to more than fifty.

So which is proof so clear as to cause a "crash and burn," two points that may correspond to a small portion of the coast of a land mass that resembles the map in no other point, or more than fifty clearly identifiable points in Antarctica?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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You can find all that and more here: Climate Data Online | Canada's National Climate Archive

Yup, it has been getting warmer, after it got colder, after it got warmer.

Talk about sever weather; 1963 Big Muddy SK. over 10 inches (not centimetres, but real inches) of rain in 1 hour; 100 miles north soft ball sized hail which damaged and demolished buildings and killed livestock.

Hurricane Hazel in the 1950's; hundreds of deaths extensive damage and destruction in eastern Canada and the US.

Extreme snows in the 1970's, again in east Canada and US.

Every decade there is severe weather everywhere; that has not changed.

Ice storm in eastern Canada and the US in the late 80's or early 90's.
 
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Biblewriter

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Anyone who bothers to go back to the beginning and read what has already been posted will know that the "statistics" you are talking about are blatantly falsified.

I have already posted the data they posted only a few years ago, compared to the drastically different data they are now posting as the very same data for the very same years.

You made the excuse that this was 'corrections," but "corrections do not change all data over a long period of time, to change a steadily declining temperature to a steadily increasing one.
 
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Biblewriter

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This did not come from Fox News. It came from memory of those of us that lived at the time. Ant the media would not have jumped on it unless 'scientists" had predicted it.
 
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eclipsenow

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You find a general resemblance between two islands in a rounded bay and two islands in a clearly angular bay.
That's pathetic... for the following 3 reasons.

1. You find an exact resemblance if you compare the Gulf of Carpentaria with Orontius!


To me, the Gulf of Carpentaria wins. The Ross sea right hand island (see below) is simply too high, up near the top right opening of the bay. I've turned the map above upside down so you can see this. But the Gulf of Carpentaria right hand island is down the bottom right, where it should be according to old Orontius.



2. Also, you never really explained why they could get the land masses of Europe and the Americas roughly correct but got Antarctica out by 230%, probably making it larger than Australia and Antarctica combined! (I haven't bothered to run the math on that though). Why so bad when they could map the other areas of the world so well? The answer: because humanity hadn't been there yet!

3. Why discard the evidence of ice core samples that show the ice sheets to be 800,000 to 1,000,000 years old? Answer? Because you've misunderstood the genre of Genesis, and think it is a literalistic account of how God made the world, not a profoundly theological account of why he made it. You're threatened by the idea of an old world, and so discount climate science for poor theological and poor scientific reasons. Asserting that these (rather impressive) historical maps somehow trumps modern ice core science and climate science is stretching credibility to the point where I'm wondering if medication is required?
 
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Douggg

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I am not sure of who is arguing what in this thread.

I know one thing, that here in my hometown it seems to be getting hotter in the summers. That may be just a perception. I am not dealing in scientific data.

One of the 7 vials judgment is that heat from the sun will scorch men Revelation 16:8, so the global warming may be leading up to that.


Doug
 
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eclipsenow

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I am not sure of who is arguing what in this thread.

I know one thing, that here in my hometown it seems to be getting hotter in the summers. That may be just a perception. I am not dealing in scientific data.
It probably is a scientific fact as the global averages have been going up for decades.

One of the 7 vials judgment is that heat from the sun will scorch men Revelation 16:8, so the global warming may be leading up to that.

As you know, I'm convinced Revelation is not a timetable for the future but generalised gospel sermons illustrating man's alienation from God, alienation from each other, and even alienation from nature in chaos. This is God's judgement against us, handing us over to the consequences of our actions. Just as He doesn't jump in and rescue human beings from criminal knives and bullets, so He doesn't jump in and rescue us from pollution, lead poisoning, deforestation, and climate change. We get what we deserve.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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This did not come from Fox News. It came from memory of those of us that lived at the time. Ant the media would not have jumped on it unless 'scientists" had predicted it.

Indeed we did live it; I'm not sure how long these trends last, but it seems to me that it's somewhat less than 100 years. Biblewriter, you and I may live to see the next shift; others will for sure... unless our Lord decides that the fullness of time is here.

Addendum, we must be mindful too that one of the maps presented is rather old, and Cartography was not always spot on, as they say. Early explorers not always got their inclination/declination/, magnetic deviation/variation correct; likewise, they could be 100% accurate but may have used a different cartographic projection, which certainly will change the shape of what we see represented compared to more modern maps.

Regardless, I'm not getting my panties in a knot over it.
 
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Biblewriter

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You are drowning in denial, so you are grasping at straws. You are correct that in the instance of the island on the right, the location is much closer to the location of the island in Australia. But that is the sole detail among more than fifty that more closely resembles Australia than Antarctica.


Actually, that detail was quite reasonably explained, if you had simply bothered to read what I posted. Some mapmaker, sometime between the time the ancient map was made and the 1500's, had incorrectly assumed that a circle approximately representing the eightieth parallel had been intended to represent the Arctic Circle. Since modern men had not been there yet, there was no information available to correct this error. That same concept also explained why the Antarctic peninsula was missing. There was simply no room for it after the true location of South America was known, so it was left out.

But the remarkable accuracy of the shape is absolutely undeniable. Some ancient individual had obviously been there. And the amazingly accurate shape of the inexplored portions of North and South America in the Hadji Ahmed Map proves the same thing about them.

Actually, I an an Old Earth Creationist, so the concept of an old world does not disturb me at all. But as a scientist, I KNOW FOR A FACT that every dating system used, other than tree ring dating and the dating of igneous rocks, is based on rank assumptions. And tree ring dating has proved carbon 14 dating to be erroneous when it is more than a few hundred years old.

In the case of carbon 14 dating and of the dating system used for the ice core samples, the assumption was that the earth has always been receiving the same amount of radiation from outer space that it is now receiving. This rank assumption neglects the fact that if the earth passed through a cloud of intergalcatic dust, that dust could have drastically reduced the radiation the earth was receiving for as long as it took to ass through the cloud.
 
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eclipsenow

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You are correct that in the instance of the island on the right, the location is much closer to the location of the island in Australia.

Thank you.

But that is the sole detail among more than fifty that more closely resembles Australia than Antarctica.
Fail! The mountains are wrong, the size is way wrong, and none of your explanations explain how they got Europe and America so right compared to getting 'Antarctica' so wrong.

That's just laughably absurd. If they people had been there, they would have got the scale and Peninsula roughly correct. Stop grasping and admit the fact!

As many of the historians I quote say:

"Fine put the reports together to produce a half real, half guessed, map."
Jave la Grande - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, you never cared to explain why Fine himself called part of the Great Southern Land "BRASIELIE REGIO" and the other part "REGIO PATALIS"? Probably because it's devastating to your presuppositions?

But the remarkable accuracy of the shape is absolutely undeniable.
Apart from getting the scale totally wrong, missing the Peninsula, missing all the ICE, and putting mountains in the wrong place... yeah sure! But if we're just going to tweak all those 'minor details' (like making their hypothetical Terra Australis larger than Antarctica and Australia combined!), then as I said above, we could just 'tweak' a photo of you and you'd look just like Elvis. Just change the colour of your hair and suit, and we're done! That's only a few changes. To make Terra Australis look like Antarctica you're willing to cut the scale in half, move mountain ranges, move the South Pole, add a Peninsula, move the Island in the Ross Sea, change the shape of the Ross Sea, and get rid of kilometres of ice sheet that's been there a million years.

But hey, otherwise they're identical!

The cartographers and archaeologists I've quoted laugh at Hapgood. You venerate him because he would appear to agree with some of your wilder presuppositions. Oh well, I can't do anything about that.

Some ancient individual had obviously been there.
It's so obvious that archaeologists and cartographers laugh at Hapgood. Just because you were hoodwinked.

And the amazingly accurate shape of the inexplored portions of North and South America in the Hadji Ahmed Map proves the same thing about them.
I'm actually more open to that idea as there may have been earlier exploration of those areas.

I'm glad to hear you're an old earth scientist, and I'm not going to debate Carbon 14 with you because I'd just be quoting peer-reviewed science at you that you already have, for whatever reason, decided to disagree with.
 
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Douggg

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Yeah, I know something is wrong when numbers like 25 billion years old are being tossed out there, but don't have the scientific expertise in carbon dating to say why. The tree ring dating exposing of carbon dating's accuracy is something I didn't know. Thanks, James. Now if I can only remember it.


Doug
 
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Biblewriter

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There was a national Geographic article around 1990-1995 or so, comparing tree ring dating to carbon 14 dating. It showed a perceptible difference beginning at around 200 or so years, growing progressively larger as the age increased, until at around eight or nine hundred years, the difference was significant.

As to the falsification of global temperature data, I posted proof in posts number 118 and 119. This manipulation was admitted on the climategate e-mails.

As to the errors in measurements taken by the US government, I posted proof in post number 107.

Tree ring dating is the only system for dating life forms that is logically sound. But it is very susceptible to error, and can only be used in a relatively small area. Wood from a different area requires a completely different dataset.

As to being an old earth creationist, I personally believe that a literal interpretation of the scriptures not only allows, but requires, that there was a different creation on this earth between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. For Isaiah 45:18 explicitly says that God did not create the earth in the condition described in Genesis 1:2. The Hebrew word used there is not only the same Hebrew word, but the same form of the same Hebrew word. And the Hebrew word translated "was" in Genesis 1:2 was translated "became" in every other of the many places it occurs in the first few chapters of Genesis.

As to global warming being prophesied in the Bible, I said this in post number 291:

"If this vision is meant to be taken literally it shows the heat produced by the sun increasing, not the earth trapping more heat from the sun. If that were the case, then nothing we could possibly do could affect it in any way.

"But from the beginning of the Bible to its end, without even one exception, every time we are given a prophetic vision followed by an inspired explanation of its meaning, the meaning is something completely different from what the prophet saw. The visions are always symbolic, and the symbolism is always moral, rather than physical."

I then went on to explain what I said in more detail, if you care to read post 291.
 
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