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Giving racists a platform

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Robbie_James_Francis

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My Students' Union is having its AGM and apparently there is a so-called "pro-platform" motion being tabled. I don't know the details but it would basically permit, or I imagine lift a ban on, the BNP and other racist/fascist organisations being allowed to speak at the Union.

I was wondering what people thought about this issue.

Does allowing fascists to give talks provide them with legitimacy, or is it better to permit them to speak openly so their arguments can be publicly defeated?

Is it right to ask what are we scared of, and assume that bringing something so flawed and abhorrent to light will make it self-defeating? Or are people so gullible that they need to be 'protected'? Or, perhaps, are the BNP and others so cunning and deceptive that they can twist public feeling for their benefit successfully, all the while covering and spinning their true policies?
 

morningstar2651

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I'm all for them being free to speak. Why shouldn't they be allowed to promulgate their ideology, however ridiculous or obscene it may be? Fascists and racists aren't monsters - they're people like you and me. They have different beliefs from me, but that doesn't warrant silencing them.
 
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Joachim

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First of all, you need to understand that you are using an incorrect definition of fascism. Hitler's ideology was fascist in nature and so of course fascism took on a negative character. Mussolini's fascism was not racial or discriminatory at all. It was very nationalistic but it was by no means racist. Mussolini's ideology was actually a third way ideology and if you look at the international political spectrum it is closely related to other third way ideologies although no other third way ideology openly takes the label fascism.


They clearly should have the right to make their demonstration. This is political speech and because it is political speech it is protected. Falwell v. Hustler (1985?) does a good job of elucidating this principle.


You can't have free speech if you don't allow people to speak because of their beliefs.
 
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b&wpac4

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First of all, you need to understand that you are using an incorrect version of fascism. Hitler's ideology was fascist in nature and so of course fascism took on a negative character. Mussolini's fascism was not racial or discriminatory at all. It was very nationalistic but it was by no means racist. Mussolini's ideology was actually a third way ideology and if you look at the international political spectrum it is closely related to other third way ideologies although no other third way ideology openly takes the label fascism.


They clearly should have the right to make their demonstration. This is political speech and because it is political speech it is protected. Falwell v. Hustler (1985?) does a good job of elucidating this principle.


You can't have free speech if you don't allow people to speak because of their beliefs.

You can prevent groups from speaking at your private functions or whatever. That is not restriction of free speech.
 
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Beanieboy

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I suppose that it matters whether it is a anti-speech or not, with propaganda.

It is better that they be able to speak than to allow their hatred to go underneath and fester. Maybe there could be a panel, or a debate?

If there was a Christian Group that wanted to speak on campus, and speak out against how gays are a threat to our society, that would count as fearmongering, but they were often allowed to speak, and ended up having a number of confrontations at the U of Mn. My hope is that those who were confronting them were well spoken, and helped plant some seeds in their hearts.
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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You can prevent groups from speaking at your private functions or whatever. That is not restriction of free speech.

This is more what I meant. I don't think feedom of speech is up for dispute, but I'm wondering about whether or not specific organisations (like the National Union of Students) should allow fascists to speak on their premises, at their events.
 
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Verv

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The BNP is not a racist organization. It is a heavily slandered organization.

Second, the more you avoid discussing it the more you appear as cowards. I do not know if you could defeat them in argument because you guys never even give them the opportunity to argue.

I have met these folks -- they are not idiots without reason.

I think the more that you disallow free speech on certain topics the more you run the risk of being the fascists yourselves.

Europe is changing and you will not be able to silence the anti-immigration movement forever.
 
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Garyzenuf

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The BNP is not a racist organization. It is a heavily slandered organization.


Aren't they the group that wants everyone who is not white to leave the UK for 'home', and they think races are very different at a biological level and should not mix? They sound like the English version of the KKK.


Second, the more you avoid discussing it the more you appear as cowards. I do not know if you could defeat them in argument because you guys never even give them the opportunity to argue.
I'm sure there would be many folk here who would be more than happy to discuss their beliefs with them.


I have met these folks -- they are not idiots without reason.


Leave that one for the rookies. :)

*
 
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SallyNow

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Student unions can allow or disallow whatever they want. A few years ago there was a whole debate about whether a B.C. university student's union could ban military displays at the career fair. I think in the end the student body spoke up and said they should be able to. But, I have to check for an article on that to get the exact details.

I don't think banning free speech is a good thing. But I also wonder why this came up. Is there a lecture series on immigration or something?

As long as they are not promoting violent behaviour be taken against those of non-British heritage, and are not threatening to physically harm anyone, then let 'em blather on, and that they advertise the event as having graphic visual content if they are going present any.
 
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No Swansong

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I'm not sure how it works in Canada but I know that in the U.S. the Right to speech has never been understood as the right to have a platform for speech. In other words if I own a radio station I can chose who to play on that radio station for whatever reason I chose and I am not violating other recording artists's right to Free Speech.

I would imagine the same is true on Canadian campuses. Not allowing a specific group to speak doesn't seem to me the same as infringing upon their right to speech.

To answer the OP now. While I wrote all of the above and I believe it, my personal thought is that we should let all ideologies be considered. I have faith that those arguments that are fallacious will eventually be found to be so, and that those ideas that are valid and good will also eventually be recognized as such.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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It's a difficult issue, I think.

What degree of intolerance can a tolerant society bear before it basically opens the gates for its own demise?

If you grant freedom of speech to a group that aims at abolishing the same for all others, and basically wants to create a power base that eventually allows it to criminalize all dissenters, aren't you courting disaster?

The problem with propaganda is not that most of it is plain obvious and/or ridiculous. The problem with propaganda is that some of it actually works.

Remember the Rwandan genocide of 1994, and the role the media played in it?
Or what of the current war in Iraq, and the far-spread propaganda that preceded it? If you had asked the average American at the bus stop in 2003 whether there was a direct connection between Iraq and 9/11, chances are that he would have answered "yes". And if you had asked him what he thought of the French, he'd probably have told you that he'd be eating "freedom fries" from now on.

If you abolish and/or silence specific groups, however, where does it stop? Doesn't that mean that you, yourself, head down the very road that you want to prevent?

As I said, it's a difficult issue.
 
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b&wpac4

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I am a huge believer in freedom of speech and expression. I remember being called a monster because I said the guy who made the video game where you played the shooters at Columbine was within his rights to do so. But I also said that there was no requirement for stores to carry the product or any media outlet to advertise the product if they choose not to.

As was said earlier, there's a difference between someone having freedom of speech and having a way to deliver that message. For example, I'm pretty sure most Churches would not allow and atheist group to come into their service on Sunday and give a speech about why theists are wrong. They are not required to allow this either. However, the atheists could stand on public grounds outside the Church and spread their message, providing they did not violate existing law.
 
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The BNP is not a racist organization. It is a heavily slandered organization.

I have met these folks -- they are not idiots without reason.

Europe is changing and you will not be able to silence the anti-immigration movement forever.

As people might be able to tell by the minuteness of my post count and the length of my registration, I’m normally a lurker here, but this post was sufficiently imbecilic to lure me out of the woodwork, not for the content of its argument (that it is itself fascistic for current members of private organisations to deny future membership or use of facilities to neo-nazis and fascists), but for the content of its information, that the BNP is not a racist organisation. It most emphatically was founded as a racist organisation, and persists in being a racist organisation.

The founder of the British National Party and mentor of the current party leader, John Tyndall, is on record as saying, ‘Mein Kampf is my Bible’. The anti-Semitic ideology of the party has become more muted in recent years, as the party has come to realise that, while anti-black, anti-Asian and anti-immigrant racism is still relatively acceptable in British society, anti-Semitism is liable to produce a far greater backlash; they have also found that the British public is highly receptive to anti-Muslim messages, especially in the wake of the July 7th bombings. Their members still undertake anti-Semitic attacks with the blessing of the party, and the party maintains strong anti-Semitic links, especially to notable holocaust denier David Irving, who has recently proclaimed himself to be Hitler’s prophet in a suitably bizarre interview.

Although the core of the organisation of the BNP disowned terrorism and political violence in the 1990s, this does not mean that the organisation lacks the capacity to carry out attacks. It outsourced its violent activities to young members in order to preserve the organisation from prosecution and prefers to stir up violence against immigrants, native non-whites, traveller communities and homosexuals than carry it out itself. Even so, it does preserve links with Neo-Nazi terrorist organisations such as Combat 18 and the National Socialist movement. The most famous member of the latter was David Copeland, a terrorist who, in April 1999, carried out several nail bombing attacks against London’s Gay, Asian and Black communities. The bombs killed three people, including a pregnant woman, and injured 129, four of whom lost limbs. I remember widespread panic, especially given that pure luck had caused the first and second of his bombings to go awry, creating fears that any subsequent attacks would be far deadlier (fears which were well founded).

The party bans non-indigenous Caucasians from being members, and states its intention to use state and vigilante violence to expel all but indigenous whites from the UK if they ever gain power. The Party claims that they have an affinity for all peoples of the British Isles, but display a marked anti-Celtic tendency and their membership is mainly made up of Anglo-Normans living in England. The party has few Scottish members, and even fewer Irish members, which is unsurprising seeing as one of the policies of the party is to annex all of Ireland should they ever, by some absurd quirk of fate, assume national power.

I could say more on the topic of no-platform policies and the practical implications of inviting the BNP to speak, as my university had a large debate over our no-platform policy and over the speaking invitations to Nick Griffin, the leader of the BNP, and to David Irving that were made in late 2007 by a private members' club affiliated to the university. I could say more with regards to the ethics of providing resources to aid the speech of far-right individuals. I could say more on the relative attitudes of universities towards far-right political parties, like the BNP, and far-right religious groups, like Hizb ut-Tahrir or the Society of St. Pius X.

But I won’t, because what I really want to know is, why are you claiming that the members of this far-right political party and terrorist organisation are in fact reasonable people? Is it because you’re a liar, or are you simply too ignorant to know any better? You claim that you have met these people, and seemingly appreciate, apologise for, and sympathise with their ideology, which is something that I think anyone reading this board would find to be especially troubling; an explanation on your part is in order.
 
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keith99

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...

The founder of the British National Party and mentor of the current party leader, John Tyndall, is on record as saying, ‘Mein Kampf is my Bible’.
...

But I won’t, because what I really want to know is, why are you claiming that the members of this far-right political party and terrorist organisation are in fact reasonable people? Is it because you’re a liar, or are you simply too ignorant to know any better? You claim that you have met these people, and seemingly appreciate, apologise for, and sympathise with their ideology, which is something that I think anyone reading this board would find to be especially troubling; an explanation on your part is in order.

Well since you brought up Hitler. It is reported he was very good to his dog. I imagine even in his later paranoid days if one were to speak to him and the subjets was only dogs he might well seem a quite alright guy.

That is of course ignoring that the 'better' representitives of fringe groups can seem quite reasonable if they are out trying to present that kind of face to the public.

BTW I have no knowledge of British fringe groups to speak of. We have enought of our own in the States.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Well since you brought up Hitler. It is reported he was very good to his dog. I imagine even in his later paranoid days if one were to speak to him and the subjets was only dogs he might well seem a quite alright guy.
Well, in the end, he had the dog poisoned in order to test the stuff he wanted to commit suicide with.
 
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