Genesis & Revelation

[ianb321red]

Here's a couple of interesting bits of information from either end of The Bible.

Firstly in Genesis.

Did you know that in the Chinese language you can reconstruct the whole story from Genesis 1-11 from the pictures in the Chinese language. So this provides independent confirmation from outside The Bible that the events in Genesis happened, and were taken in the memory of the people living at the time of Babel and subsequently fled to live in China.

Here’s a brief clip with more info:

David Pawson Genesis (4. Eden To Babel) - Unlocking The Old Testament - YouTube

Secondly, in Revelation.

In Revelation 21:19-21 there is a description of the New Jerusalem. It describes the precious stones which the walls of the new holy city will be made from:

Jasper / Sapphire / Agate / Emerald / Onyx / Ruby / Chrysolite / Beryl / Topaz / Turquoise / Jacinth / Amethyst

Only in the past 50 years or so have scientists discovered cross polarized light:
Polarized light microscopy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When cross polarized light is shone through thin slices of precious stones you get one of 2 effects, and this shows whether that stone is either isotropic or anisotropic.
In simple terms, if a stone is isotropic then the effect of shining cross polarized light means that the stone loses all of its colour and just goes black.
However, if a stone is anisotropic then the effect is staggering: the stone shows an amazing range of all of the colours of the rainbow, similar to this:

No one has known about this effect until the last 50-60 or years.
Now the interesting thing is that if you shine cross polarized light through each of the 12 stones mentioned in Revelation 21, then it shows that they are ALL anisotropic!
Only God could have known this!

So there you go – just another interesting discovery. Make of it what you will..

More information here on some short You Tube clips:

Truth in the Bible - Revelation 21 - YouTube
and
Dark Diamonds - YouTube

 

[savedbygrace05]

Thanks ian, keep up the God work ​

 

[Gadarene]

Polarisation effects have been known about for far longer than 50 years - birefringence, pleochroism, etc.

Cross polarisation microscopy is a particularly modern technique, but observing odd optical effects wasn't particularly beyond the grasp of the ancients either.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Half my first degree was in materials science with a fair part in crystallography. But last time I spent an hour explaining the OP and why it is not what it appears to be I just got my post deleted so this time I won't bother.

 

[Gadarene]

Half my first degree was in materials science with a fair part in crystallography. But if I spend an hour explaining the OP and why it is not what it appears to be I'll just get my post deleted so this time I won't bother.

Aw, but I wanna know!

 

[MorkandMindy]

We have to start by working out what the 12 stones mentioned actually are.

The King James and Septuagint disagree

Hebrew King James Septuagint
Odem Sardius Sardius
Pitdah Topaz Topaz
Bareqeth Carbuncle (Garnet) Emerald
Nophek Emerald Anthrax (Garnet)
Sappiyr Sapphire Sapphire
Yahalom Diamond Jasper
Leshem Ligure Ligure
Shebuw Agate Agate
Aclamah Amethyst Amethyst
Tarshish Beryl Chrysolite
Shoham Onyx Beryl
Jashepheh Jasper Onyx

and other possibilities not mentioned in either seem more likely

The next point is that all single crystals are anisotropic, and the next is that I have to wake up shockingly early for work tomorrow.

 

[Gadarene]

We have to start by working out what the 12 stones mentioned actually are.

The King James and Septuagint disagree

Hebrew King James Septuagint
Odem Sardius Sardius
Pitdah Topaz Topaz
Bareqeth Carbuncle (Garnet) Emerald
Nophek Emerald Anthrax (Garnet)
Sappiyr Sapphire Sapphire
Yahalom Diamond Jasper
Leshem Ligure Ligure
Shebuw Agate Agate
Aclamah Amethyst Amethyst
Tarshish Beryl Chrysolite
Shoham Onyx Beryl
Jashepheh Jasper Onyx

and other possibilities not mentioned in either seem more likely

The next point is that all single crystals are anisotropic, and the next is that I have to wake up shockingly early for work tomorrow.

Ha, alright, another time.

Personally, I have a vague recollection of some kind of pleochroic mineral being known for centuries already. Alexandrite? Cordierite (Viking compass)? Some of the stones listed, the pleochroism can be seen by holding the stone up in the light - so it doesn't strike me as that unusual if the ancients knew about them and that property already.

 

[ebia]

Here's a couple of interesting bits of information from either end of The Bible.

Firstly in Genesis.

Did you know that in the Chinese language you can reconstruct the whole story from Genesis 1-11 from the pictures in the Chinese language. So this provides independent confirmation from outside The Bible that the events in Genesis happened, and were taken in the memory of the people living at the time of Babel and subsequently fled to live in China.

Here’s a brief clip with more info:

David Pawson Genesis (4. Eden To Babel) - Unlocking The Old Testament - YouTube

A 40 minute lecture is not brief.

Do you have a link to a text explanation of what you are talking about?

Secondly, in Revelation.

In Revelation 21:19-21 there is a description of the New Jerusalem. It describes the precious stones which the walls of the new holy city will be made from:

Jasper / Sapphire / Agate / Emerald / Onyx / Ruby / Chrysolite / Beryl / Topaz / Turquoise / Jacinth / Amethyst

Only in the past 50 years or so have scientists discovered cross polarized light:
Polarized light microscopy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When cross polarized light is shone through thin slices of precious stones you get one of 2 effects, and this shows whether that stone is either isotropic or anisotropic.
In simple terms, if a stone is isotropic then the effect of shining cross polarized light means that the stone loses all of its colour and just goes black.
However, if a stone is anisotropic then the effect is staggering: the stone shows an amazing range of all of the colours of the rainbow, similar to this:

No one has known about this effect until the last 50-60 or years.
Now the interesting thing is that if you shine cross polarized light through each of the 12 stones mentioned in Revelation 21, then it shows that they are ALL anisotropic!
Only God could have known this!

So there you go – just another interesting discovery. Make of it what you will..

More information here on some short You Tube clips:

Truth in the Bible - Revelation 21 - YouTube
and
Dark Diamonds - YouTube

See MorkAndMindy

 

[ebia]

We have to start by working out what the 12 stones mentioned actually are.

The King James and Septuagint disagree

Where does Hebrew or the LXX come into it? The LXX is the ancient translation of the OT into Greek. Revelation is an NT text written in Greek.

Though you are correct that ancient categories of semi-precious rocks don't entirely line up with modern scientific classifications.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Here's a couple of interesting bits of information from either end of The Bible.

Firstly in Genesis.

Did you know that in the Chinese language you can reconstruct the whole story from Genesis 1-11 from the pictures in the Chinese language.

Where to start? How about with his statement that the writing of Egypt was cuneiform? It wasn't, it was heiroglyphic. Cuneiform was Sumerian. Anyone who makes that sort of basic error is not to be trusted.

And so to the Chinese. David Pawson actually admits "somebody in China told me this [but I haven't verified it myself]". The first character (&#36896 is not "create" but "make". To become create it requires another character in front (创&#36896. 创 actually means create, and its constituent parts have nothing to do with Genesis.

The character he uses for "Devil" (&#39740 is actually "ghost" or "dirty trick". Again, it requires the addition of another character in front to mean devil (魔&#39740. And the meanings of the parts are not exactly as he claims (田 means field, not garden. He might have done better to use garden (&#22253 as an example of "biblical memory" because the constituent parts are 2 people/sons in an enclosure!) We'll ignore the fact that the Chinese use entirely different characters for Satan (撒&#26086, shall we?

The character he calls "tempter" (&#39764 is interesting. Did you notice it's the character that comes before 鬼 to mean devil? I'd translate it more as a demon, but it also means magic. I have no idea how he thinks a "devil" (see my comment above) with 2 trees under cover is a reference to Genesis. Can anyone enlighten me? Suspect he's making a very oblique attempt at referencing the tree of life.

With the boat character, 舟 on it's own actually means "boat" not "container". The original version of the character he uses was 舩 which is boat + 8 + private. It was changed to 船 at a much later date.

Not all parts of Chinese characters give meaning. Sometimes they denote pronounciation or they may just be needed to differentiate from a similar character. As a simple example, if we follow David Pawson's logic then when you talk about your mother you are calling her a female horse (妈妈 = woman + horse x2, pronounced māma with mǎ being the pronounciation of horse). I won't keep going. Suffice to say that it's terribly easy to draw conclusions from slight misrepresentation and coincidence, isn't it?

So this provides independent confirmation from outside The Bible that the events in Genesis happened, and were taken in the memory of the people living at the time of Babel and subsequently fled to live in China.

Sorry to rain on your party but that is cobblers!

 

[Nabobalis]

So what events in Genesis are true? We know, there was no global flood, no 6 day creation event and no garden of Eden.

 

[Bish bash bosh]

So what events in Genesis are true? We know, there was no global flood, no 6 day creation event and no garden of Eden.

It was doubt not guilt that got to Adam and his mrs.

Bish

 

[ianb321red]

A 40 minute lecture is not brief.

Do you have a link to a text explanation of what you are talking about?

Sorry, the link was supposed to be time specific but it hasn't worked.
You need to watch from 37:23 ish....it's the last 2 minutes or so...

 

[Miser]

We know, there was no global flood

Tell that to the people in the northern hemisphere at the end of the ice age, where as far as they were concerned, the world did flood

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Tell that to the people in the northern hemisphere at the end of the ice age, where as far as they were concerned, the world did flood

You're not serious, are you?

 

[StormHawk]

.. all single crystals are anisotropic, and the next is that I have to wake up shockingly early for work tomorrow.

The walls of New Jerusalem are double the thickness of the M25, i.e. more than a single crystal.

Are you saying that diamonds and rubies exposed only to pure / cross-polarised light from one direction will not appear black?

 

[MorkandMindy]

Where does Hebrew or the LXX come into it? The LXX is the ancient translation of the OT into Greek. Revelation is an NT text written in Greek.

Though you are correct that ancient categories of semi-precious rocks don't entirely line up with modern scientific classifications.

My apologies - here's a bit from the Christian book of Revelation in a few closely related versions:

KJV
1 jasper
2 sapphire
3 chalcedony
4 emerald
5 sardonyx
6 sardius
7 chrysolite
8 beryl
9 topaz
10 chrysoprasus
11jacinth
12 amethyst

NIV gives:
3 agate
5 onyx
6 ruby
10 turquoise

ESV as NIV but:
6 carnelian

J B Philips as NIV but:
7 goldstone
10 green goldstone
11 zircon

David Pawson is using the stones listed in the NIV

PPPS:

No, the text with the Youtube is incorrect, it states:

Jasper / Sapphire / Agate / Emerald / Onyx / Ruby / Chrysolite / Beryl / Topaz / Turquoise / Jacinth / Amethyst

which is the NIV list,

whereas David Pawson uses the KJV list:

1. Jasper (quartz)
2. Saphire
3. Chalcedony
4. Emerald
5. Sardonyx
6. Sardius (carnelian)
7. Chrysolyte (peridot)
8. Beryl (Aquamarine)
9. topaz
10. chrysoprasus
11. Jacinth
12. Amethyst

 

[MorkandMindy]

The walls of New Jerusalem are double the thickness of the M25, i.e. more than a single crystal.

Well that's the great thing about trying to understand religions. Nothing can be assumed. If the text says 'a single crystal' then that has to be taken as the basis. (But I'm not sure it does.)

Jasper is normally used as a stone consisting of billions of very fine crystals, whereas Amethyst is often used in single crystals.

That is normal usage and is the starting point.

One picture of jasper and two of amethyst

 

[ebia]

My apologies - here's a bit from the Christian book of Revelation in a few closely related versions:

KJV
1 jasper
2 sapphire
3 chalcedony
4 emerald
5 sardonyx
6 sardius
7 chrysolite
8 beryl
9 topaz
10 chrysoprasus
11jacinth
12 amethyst

NIV gives:
3 agate
5 onyx
6 ruby
10 turquoise

ESV as NIV but:
6 carnelian

J B Philips as NIV but:
7 goldstone
10 green goldstone
11 zircon

David Pawson is using the stones listed in the NIV

PPPS:

No, the text with the Youtube is incorrect, it states:

which is the NIV list,

whereas David Pawson uses the KJV list:

1. Jasper (quartz)
2. Saphire
3. Chalcedony
4. Emerald
5. Sardonyx
6. Sardius (carnelian)
7. Chrysolyte (peridot)
8. Beryl (Aquamarine)
9. topaz
10. chrysoprasus
11. Jacinth
12. Amethyst

Not sure what that has to do with my question...

 

[MorkandMindy]

Not sure what that has to do with my question...

You asked what the Hebrew or LXX had to do with my response.

The simple answer is I was in a panic and accidentally used the names of the 12 stones adorning the High Priest mentioned in Ex 28 instead of the 12 stones used as foundations in Revelation.

That's a pretty odd mistake, but it is the one I made.