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tas8831

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Creationists busily, and without respite, declare that evolution is wrong, and Genesis (apparently both I and II) are 100% true history.

There is, from a scientific/genetic viewpoint, a big problem - 2, actually - in believing this.

1. How to get today's extant (not to mention extinct) diversity from a single created pair of every animal (and presumably, plants).

Creationists (to include the 'professional' ones) generally ignore this issue altogether and focus on typically bogus attacks on evolution, but every now and then an intrepid one will put forth a proposal for how this degree of diversity can be 'explained' genetically via creation.

The more 'sophisticated' versions are along the lines of a 'fully front-loaded genome', in which the original created 'Kinds' (whatever those are) had created genomes that were jam-packed with all of the alleles that would be required to produce all of the later variants of these 'Kinds'. So, the original 'Elephant Kind' had a genome with the alleles needed to produce mastadons, mammoths, gomphotheres, etc,; the original 'Bat Kind' had all of the alleles required to produce the 1000 or so species of bat, etc.

I should note that I have encountered at least 2 people advocating for this on the internet, and have read about it as a possibility on several 'professional' creationist sites over the years. None have actually presented any actual evidence that this was so.

The evidence that we DO have indicates that this is simply impossible. How would, for example, the alleles that make a domestic cat be 'turned off' for the millenia (or, decades in the YEC timeline) before there were such felines? Advocates of the front-loaded genome never have answers.

Other attempts at rescuing the implausibility of Genesis' accuracy include positing things like hybridization as the all-purpose escape - new species are made via hybridization! Where, one often asks advocates of this, did the two 'kinds' that hybridized come from originally, since Genesis only mentions 'each after their kind', and we are told.... hybridization!

That is, there is no answer.

2. The other big problem for Genesis genetics is that the diversity somehow produced by the creation was wiped out - leaving but a single breeding pair of everything but humans and 'clean' beasts after the flood.
This brings us back to square one - this is all usually ignored, or the original wiped-out diversity is ignored to focus on the re-generation of diversity post-flood as if that lessens the problem in some way.

The Genesis genetics problems are compounded by those that insist that there were no mutations before the Fall, or that mutations play no role in diversity, etc.



So, creationists, HOW did today's diversity arise from a pair or a few pairs since the Flood (which, for YECs, means that all of this diversity has to be explained as having occurred in only a few thousand years with nobody noticing)?

Hybridization does not cut it, for that implies the existence of more than a single breeding pair in the first place.

Front-loaded genomes could cut it, if only there was actual evidence for this, and only if what we actually know about genetics didn't actually refute it.

Do creationists know of any evidence FOR how this diversity was produced?

And please remember that it MUST have been produced post-flood, too - otherwise, the ark would have been impossible.
 

Justatruthseeker

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I guess if in light of today's knowledge, one wishes to continue to believe it was a rib that was taken, and not half the genome, one may do so. The two shall become one flesh. It is when those two chromosomes reunite that a new life comes into being.
 
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Sanoy

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On 1. So the main objection is not that diversity cannot be front loaded, but that there is no mechanism to hold back diversification from starting earlier? Is that correct? I'm really just interested in front loading and whether there are any scientific objections to it being possible. Obviously you reject the presented conclusion, but I'm wanting to know if the premise itself (front loaded dna) is deemed impossible through scientific discovery.

(Genuine question, open to anyone, not rhetoric)
 
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Justatruthseeker

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By front loaded if you mean near perfect at the start and degrading over time, why of course, that's how we get non-functional DNA is through error over time, not a build up to perfection, but the reverse.
 
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Sanoy

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By front loaded if you mean near perfect at the start and degrading over time, why of course, that's how we get non-functional DNA is through error over time, not a build up to perfection, but the reverse.

I'm going for the OPs description of the Creationist theory, that whatever differences there are between elephant types, they we're already present in the first 'elephant' rather than added by mutation.

I'm wondering if any scientific discoveries have shown that to be impossible or that its contradiction is broadly observed through direct observation rather than inference from observation. (It's an odd question, but there is no hidden point behind it, I'm just curious)
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Of course they were, we got over 100 breeds of dogs from breeding one wolf stock. Why would we expect anything less from elephants or humans?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Now I am not saying they don't believe that every other animal is magically different from dogs, but hey, the direct observational proof might be sitting right beside you as we speak.

It is why evolutionary supporters hate discussing dogs, they show the wide range of variation possible without the need for any mutation at all, just simple, everyday interbreeding.
 
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Sanoy

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Of course they were, we got over 100 breeds of dogs from breeding one wolf stock. Why would we expect anything less from elephants or humans?
Basically, can your statement, taken broadly, be defeated by a fact, rather than through inference.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Basically can your statement be directly denied without inference.
Not IMO. Its been genetically proven that all dog breeds come from at the most two separate wolf stocks. The large dogs from one, and the smaller dogs from another. So one would have to heavily infer to believe otherwise.
 
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Speedwell

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It is why evolutionary supporters hate discussing dogs, they show the wide range of variation possible without the need for any mutation at all, just simple, everyday interbreeding.
How do you know there was no mutation?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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How do you know there was no mutation?
Because you can be sure the evolutionary supporters that did the DNA studies would have jumped on it.

Just as when we mate an Asian with an African and get an Afro-Asian, we need no mutation to explain the new race or variation. Husky with mastiff to get a Chinook. lion with Tiger to get a Liger. Grizzly with polar Bear to get a Prizzly. It's all already in the genes.
 
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Speedwell

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Because you can be sure the evolutionary supporters that did the DNA studies would have jumped on it.
Why? But you really ought to do your own research. You claim that there was enough variability in the gene pool of the wolf to account for the variety of dogs we see today. Is it still there? Do modern wolves still have that degree of variability?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Breed them for domesticity and find out, like the Russians did with the silver Fox and found out that simply breeding for domestic traits caused variation. But then we have seen that in dogs, pigs, cows and horses too.

How a Russian Scientist Bred the First Domesticated Foxes - D-brief

"It wasn’t only behavioral changes either. The foxes started to look different over time: their ears got floppier, their legs, tails and snouts got shorter and their skulls got wider. Even their breeding patterns changed, they now mated out of season and had on average one more offspring per litter."

"The reasons for this are likely rooted in neurological and endocrinological changes wrought in the foxes through selective breeding, according to a 2009 paper by Lyudmila Trut, of the Institute of Cytology and Genetics at the Russian Academy of Sciences, who now oversees the farm.

That paper reviewed the changes caused by domestication and found that, compared to wild foxes, the domesticated animals displayed different levels of certain chemicals in their brains. For example, their adrenal glands are not as active, but they have higher levels of serotonin. Serotonin likely plays a role in mediating aggressive behavior, writes Trut.

The physical alterations in the foxes, similar to the changes that happened in dogs, are likely a byproduct of behavioral selection. The droopiness of their ears may be caused by the slowing of their adrenal glands, says the BBC, and the others physical disparities could similarly be related to the differences in hormone levels that lead to desirable traits. Dogs likely went through much the same process over the course of hundreds of generations as they gradually adapted to living with us."
 
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Justatruthseeker

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"The domesticated foxes had floppier, drooping ears, which are found in other domestic animals such as dogs, cats, pigs, horses and goats. Curlier tails – also found in dogs and pigs – were also recorded.

All these changes were brought on by selecting for one trait: tameability

What's more, "in only a few generations, the friendly foxes were showing changes in coat colour," says Hare.

The process seems to be ongoing. "At the more advanced steps of selection, changes in the parameters of the skeletal system began to arise," Trut wrote. "They included shortened legs, tail, snout, upper jaw, and widened skull."

A Soviet scientist created the only tame foxes in the world
 
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Sanoy

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That ^ is really interesting. I wonder if epigenetics plays a role in the process of domestication. If so, we really need to start examining society in regards to our genetic future.
 
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Brightmoon

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Of course they were, we got over 100 breeds of dogs from breeding one wolf stock. Why would we expect anything less from elephants or humans?

Basically that happens because dogs have a lot of chromosomes. 70- something iirc . They simply have more genetic material to work with. Domestic dog breeds are breeding restricted small populations . It well known that genetic novelty even to the point of speciation (macroevolution) shows up best in small populations even among organisms that are not artificially bred by humans .
 
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Jimmy D

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Why are you pretending that the “small dog mutation” hasn’t been brought to your attention?

Creationists really do have terrible memories.....

Or they are just liars.
 
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Shemjaza

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By front loaded if you mean near perfect at the start and degrading over time, why of course, that's how we get non-functional DNA is through error over time, not a build up to perfection, but the reverse.
Nice idea, but isn't supported by the evidence.

If all the diversity of modern humans (not to mention all the other "kinds") was found in the original specimens then degraded down to the modern animals then all the different phenotypes would have different junk DNA, but they don't.

The ancient wolves weren't super dogs with all the DNA of their descendants (even if that were possible), they were much like modern wolves. The variation we find in modern dogs is due to mutation then selection.

Your silly refrain of "Asian only begets Asian" is both wrong and doesn't actually make any sense given what we know about both paleontology and genetics.
 
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