Genesis Chapter 11

[ironford]

seeking insite on why god referse to himself as us. why would get confuse our speech? do you think man was as intelligent back then as we are now.

just wondering someones though on this chapter and what there though is on this chapter.

 

[ironford]

also in another chapter it says the sons of god sleep with the daughters of man and god said they could no longer do this, because mans life was limited to 130 years and there childeren were great heros and legends of old.

who are sons of gods? are they angels? are they other types of gods? are they sons an daughters of the lord?

what does this mean?

 

[marciadietrich]

I think we were as intelligent in the past thousands of years as we are now but there is a difference in our accumulated knowledge. I don't think you have to take the Tower of Babel as a literal event, it might be an illustrative account of how as mankind moved around and our languages changed we had problems and challenges from that.

Heard various ideas on sons of God (gods) being either angels or just holy men but they were enticed by ungodly women (and or women from the line of Cain) into basically mixed faith marriages. Another possibility is sons of gods as sons of royalty intermarrying with commoners.

Basically on sons of God marrying sons of men there is a prequel to the flood of increasing wickedness which is why God sends the flood. So it might be a little bit of a quick way of presenting a background of a problem going on that we might not need to take literally. Just presenting a reality of sinfulness that preceded the flood.

You might want to see if you can get a study Bible that will give footnotes on some of the more difficult passages. To some extent no one knows exactly what every verse of scripture means and we have to look to the revelation in Tradition and teaching of faith to know what is most important to concentrate on.



Marcia

 

[Paul S]

I think God refers to himself as "us" because it's a reference to the Trinity. He also uses the plural pronoun when He creates man - "Let us create man in our own image."

 

[Knee V]

I've also heard that the usage of "us" and "we" is symbolic of majesty.

 

[Rising_Suns]

I believe Paul is correct; God refers to Himself in the trinitatrian pluralistic sense. It is also interesting to note that revelation speaks of "seven spirits of God" [Rev 4:5, 1:4, 5:6] (more specifically translated to "sevenfold"; Hepta=sevenfold).

"Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God." [Rev 4:5]


"Grace and Peace to you from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness..." [Rev 1:4]

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Here we see that Grace and Peace are ours from three persons: 1) Him who is... 2) seven spirits 3) Jesus Christ. This is not to say that the Holy Spirit is seven person's, but rather, that the Holy Spirit is seventhfold; complete in perfection of glory, in seven characteristics.




Now take these verses in Revelation in context to what the Church teaches regarding the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit;

1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David. 109 They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations.



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What's more, is that the Holy Spirit is active through the seven sacraments that Christ gave us; the seven characteristics of the Holy Spirit extend to us in grace through an action that we are called to partake in, as our response to God.


Anyway, just some random thoughts.

May the Lord give you His peace!

-Davide

 

[Rising_Suns]

I've also heard that the usage of "us" and "we" is symbolic of majesty.

That's interesting.

 

[Paul S]

I've also heard that the usage of "us" and "we" is symbolic of majesty.

The royal "we".

It's used in older Church documents, too. Pope Pius IX wrote in Ineffabilis Deus, "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

Hence, if anyone shall dare -- which God forbid! -- to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should are to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart. "

 

[Rising_Suns]

So instead of saying "I", it's rather saying "I, and everything that is a part of me".

 

[frettr00]

As far as the sons of God and the Nephilim go, there's an interpretation I've heard that I agree with right now. I believe the results were these children were some kind of hybrids, possibly angel/human hybrids which God did not like. Satan had devised a plot to pollute the human bloodline and prevent the birth of Christ by this method. In Genesis 3:15 it says " I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." This was said by God after Adam and Eve had fallen and I think this is a first hint as to the redemption of mankind, aka Jesus. Satan was trying to prevent his birth and hold control over man from an early point. God knew this so to prevent his plan from suceeding he flooded the earth, but only spared the godly (Noah etc.)

 

[Paul S]

In Genesis 3:15 it says " I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." This was said by God after Adam and Eve had fallen and I think this is a first hint as to the redemption of mankind, aka Jesus.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the flood or the nephilim, but it does refer to Mary and Jesus. The Vulgate has ipsa conteret caput tuum, "she will strike at your head", and in the Breviary, this portion of Genesis is read at Matins for the Immaculate Conception, showing how the Church has applied this verse to Mary.

 

[Rising_Suns]

As far as the sons of God and the Nephilim go, there's an interpretation I've heard that I agree with right now. I believe the results were these children were some kind of hybrids, possibly angel/human hybrids which God did not like. Satan had devised a plot to pollute the human bloodline and prevent the birth of Christ by this method. In Genesis 3:15 it says " I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." This was said by God after Adam and Eve had fallen and I think this is a first hint as to the redemption of mankind, aka Jesus. Satan was trying to prevent his birth and hold control over man from an early point. God knew this so to prevent his plan from suceeding he flooded the earth, but only spared the godly (Noah etc.)

That is what I have come to believe as well. Scripture is fairly clear regarding the Nephilim, I believe.