Genesis 3:15

[Iosias]

[BIBLE]Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.[/BIBLE]

How do dispensationalists interpret this verse and relate it to the rest of Scripture?

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

How do dispensationalists interpret this verse and relate it to the rest of Scripture?

We see it as a promise to provide salvation, and the details of which were given through progressive revelation.

The woman's "seed" is ultimately the Messiah, Jesus Christ, who triumphs over the serpent Satan (Rom 16:20; Heb 2:14). The remainder of Genesis and the OT looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. The Abrahamic covenant provided further details concerning the promise, specifically that the world would be blessed through one of Abraham's descendants (Gal 3:16-19). This was then narrowed further to be one from the tribe of Judah. The Mosaic covenant provided the background for the Davidic covenant, and it was through the Davidic covenant that the "seed" was narrowed to be one specifically through the line of David. Scripture even narrowed it down further to a descendant of David who would be born in Bethlehem.


LDG

 

[Iosias]

We see it as a promise to provide salvation, and the details of which were given through progressive revelation.

The woman's "seed" is ultimately the Messiah, Jesus Christ, who triumphs over the serpent Satan (Rom 16:20; Heb 2:14). The remainder of Genesis and the OT looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. The Abrahamic covenant provided further details concerning the promise, specifically that the world would be blessed through one of Abraham's descendants (Gal 3:16-19). This was then narrowed further to be one from the tribe of Judah. The Mosaic covenant provided the background for the Davidic covenant, and it was through the Davidic covenant that the "seed" was narrowed to be one specifically through the line of David. Scripture even narrowed it down further to a descendant of David who would be born in Bethlehem.


LDG

Is this not progressive dispensational?

 

[Dispy]

LamorakDesGalis
We see it as a promise to provide salvation, and the details of which were given through progressive revelation.

The woman's "seed" is ultimately the Messiah, Jesus Christ, who triumphs over the serpent Satan (Rom 16:20; Heb 2:14). The remainder of Genesis and the OT looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. The Abrahamic covenant provided further details concerning the promise, specifically that the world would be blessed through one of Abraham's descendants (Gal 3:16-19). This was then narrowed further to be one from the tribe of Judah. The Mosaic covenant provided the background for the Davidic covenant, and it was through the Davidic covenant that the "seed" was narrowed to be one specifically through the line of David. Scripture even narrowed it down further to a descendant of David who would be born in Bethlehem.

Is this not progressive dispensational?

Looks to me like progressive revelation.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Tychicum]

No not progressive dispensational.

Progressive revelation. Prophecy speaking of another distinct era many many generations later.

An interesting question is to think about what exactly what did Adam and Eve think it meant?

Now in the inner counsel of God ... God knew exactly what He meant. And that was the very first prophecy of the Messiah. Many hundreds of prophecies are written in the "pre"-Old Testament as well as the Old Testament.

Progressive Dispensationalism is really just covenant theology in sheep's clothing.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Is this not progressive dispensational?

No, its a view that all mainstream disps share.

But I'm not so certain how the Mid-Acts and Acts 28 views relate it to Scripture.


LDG

 

[Tychicum]

No, its a view that all mainstream disps share.

But I'm not so certain how the Mid-Acts and Acts 28 views relate it to Scripture.


LDG

The same. I speak as one who has studied both.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Progressive Dispensationalism is really just covenant theology in sheep's clothing.

Not true at all. I've seen that unsubstantiated assertion many times before.

We Progressives hold to a pretribulation rapture, and believe Jesus will rule from Jerusalem during the 1000 year kingdom on earth. Also some PDs are Arminian and Wesleyan. None of that fits into a CT view, so just those two are big clues that PD and CT views are not even in the same ballpark.


LDG

 

[Tychicum]

Not true at all. I've seen that unsubstantiated assertion many times before.

No offence brother ... but if it walks like a duck ...


.

 

[Iosias]

No, its a view that all mainstream disps share.

So they believe that the gospel is found the NT?

 

[Tychicum]

So they believe that the gospel is found the NT?

I believe you mean OT.

The question is what does your word "found" mean?

All sorts of antitypes are present in the Old Testament ... scores of them ... and even before the Old Testament ... in the very first books of the Bible even Genesis.

So "found?" yes. But undiscovered because God had not revealed them.

That is what is called in Scriptural parlance "a mystery". Hid in God is another term.

You and I see Jesus all over Isaih 53. But the Jews seemed to have missed the fact ... they even crucified their King.

Here is a very good quote to consider by C.I Scofield ... a favourite of mine.

The Jews were slow of heart to believe all that the prophets had spoken concerning the sufferings of their Messiah; we are slow of heart to believe all that they have spoken concerning His glory.

Surely the greater reproach is ours, for it ought to be easier to believe that the Son of God would come "in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory" than that He would come as the babe of Bethlehem and the carpenter of Nazareth.

Indeed, we believe the latter because it has happened, not because the prophets foretold it, and it is time we ceased to reproach the Jews for their unbelief. If it be asked how they could possibly be blinded to the evident meaning of so many and such unequivocal predictions, the answer is that they were blinded in exactly the same way that many Christians are blinded to the equally evident meaning of a far greater number of predictions of His earthly glory, namely, by the process of "spiritualizing" Scripture.

In other words, the ancient scribes told the people that the prophecies of Messiah's sufferings were not to be interpreted literally, just as some modern scribes are telling the people that the prophecies of Messiah's earthly glory are not to be literally interpreted.

.

 

[Tychicum]

PS the word "gospel" simply means "good news" ...

There are tons of issues of "good news" through out the whole of the Bible. Literally hundreds of "gospels".

The "Gospel" of God sidelining his chosen nation Israel ... blinding them ... and saving zillions of Gentiles instead is no where found in the old testament.

In Leviticus 26 is found the various cycles of reproof of Israel but no where is it found that Jews and Gentiles would cease to be ... and a new creation made as a result ... one new man ... a Christian.

.

 

[smarcuse]

Tychicum states: The "Gospel" of God sidelining his chosen nation Israel ... blinding them ... and saving zillions of Gentiles instead is no where found in the old testament.

Right you are, Tychicum! In fact, I do not find that Gentile salivation is connected with the term "gospel" at all.

There are three different, distinguishable gospels in the New Testament. It is the attempts to squash these three distinct gospels into one overiding gospel that leads to much confusion as to what is going on in the New Testament, especially concerning salvation and the relationship between Israel and the Church. You will find that these gospels are quite compatable when allowed to stand on thier own.

These three New Testament Gospels are:

1. "The Gospel of the Kingdom" (Matthew 4:23, 9:35). There are two major aspects to the Gospel of the Kingdom:
   1. the kingdom as at hand, i.e., now available (Matthew 3:1-2; 4:17; 10:5-7).
   2. the kingdom belongs to the apostles and no one else (Matthew 12:32; 21:43) and they are its governors and judges (Like 22:238-30). The government of the kingdom is present in its beginnings. The gospel of the kingdom is simply the good news of the presence of the kingdom in the person of Christ and in the beginnings of its workings and government in the world (compare the important passages in Like 16:16; 11:20; 17:20-21).
2. "The Gospel of Christ" (Romans 1:17; 15:19; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The gospel of Christ is the good news of His person and salvation. The passages cited show that it includes a narrative of His death and resurrection as well as post-resurrection appearances, the saving importance of His death and resurrection and the fact that this message has its source in the Old Testament. (cf. especially 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 and Romans 1:1-4, 17). Paul never calls the Gospel of Christ a "mystery" that was hid before and only now revealed. The church, not the gospel of Christ, is the Pauline mystery that was hid before and only now revealed. It is important that we recognize that this gospel was the common proclamation of both Peter and Paul. It is the basis of the New Testament plan of salvation beginning at Pentecost with its proclamation in the world. It is important to note that this gospel is distinguishable from the gospel of the kingdom precisely because the gospel of the kingdom was proclaimed during Christ's earthly ministry without particular reference to His death and resurrection. The apostles did not even know during the time they proclaimed the gospel of the kingdom that He was going to die and rise again. Christ slowly and privately revealed this to the disciples as they progressed toward Jerusalem, but this was not a matter of public proclamation for salvation until after the ministry of the apostles began at Pentecost. It is proper, I think, to say that after Pentecost the gospel of christ and the gospel of the kingdom were both proclaimed by the apostles: the gospel of Christ for men's salvation and gospel of the kingdom in the form of the continued preaching of the imminent appearing of the kingdom and of Christ from heaven in response to Israel's conversion (Acts 3:19-21).
3. "The Gospel Which I Preach Among the Gentiles (Galatians 2:2). In context this expression seems to certainly refer to the message of the Gentiles inclusion in God's plan without Israel -- without Israel's ordinances, without Israel's calendar and festivals, and generally without the Law. It does not seem that the term gospel excludes the proclamation of Christ in this passage. However, there is distinctive dimension in this expression which is simply the fact that when Paul preached the gospel of Christ for salvation to Gentiles, he also preached at the same time that their response did not necessarily include the keeping of the law or Jewish expressions of faith; particularly water baptism, the offering of sacrifice in the temple, and circumcision, all of which were required by the Jews for a full proselyte from among the Gentiles.

 

[SGM4HIM]

Right you are, Tychicum! In fact, I do not find that Gentile salivation is connected with the term "gospel" at all.

There are three different, distinguishable gospels in the New Testament. It is the attempts to squash these three distinct gospels into one overiding gospel that leads to much confusion as to what is going on in the New Testament, especially concerning salvation and the relationship between Israel and the Church. You will find that these gospels are quite compatable when allowed to stand on thier own.

These three New Testament Gospels are:

1. "The Gospel of the Kingdom" (Matthew 4:23, 9:35). There are two major aspects to the Gospel of the Kingdom:
   1. the kingdom as at hand, i.e., now available (Matthew 3:1-2; 4:17; 10:5-7).
   2. the kingdom belongs to the apostles and no one else (Matthew 12:32; 21:43) and they are its governors and judges (Like 22:238-30). The government of the kingdom is present in its beginnings. The gospel of the kingdom is simply the good news of the presence of the kingdom in the person of Christ and in the beginnings of its workings and government in the world (compare the important passages in Like 16:16; 11:20; 17:20-21).
2. "The Gospel of Christ" (Romans 1:17; 15:19; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The gospel of Christ is the good news of His person and salvation. The passages cited show that it includes a narrative of His death and resurrection as well as post-resurrection appearances, the saving importance of His death and resurrection and the fact that this message has its source in the Old Testament. (cf. especially 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 and Romans 1:1-4, 17). Paul never calls the Gospel of Christ a "mystery" that was hid before and only now revealed. The church, not the gospel of Christ, is the Pauline mystery that was hid before and only now revealed. It is important that we recognize that this gospel was the common proclamation of both Peter and Paul. It is the basis of the New Testament plan of salvation beginning at Pentecost with its proclamation in the world. It is important to note that this gospel is distinguishable from the gospel of the kingdom precisely because the gospel of the kingdom was proclaimed during Christ's earthly ministry without particular reference to His death and resurrection. The apostles did not even know during the time they proclaimed the gospel of the kingdom that He was going to die and rise again. Christ slowly and privately revealed this to the disciples as they progressed toward Jerusalem, but this was not a matter of public proclamation for salvation until after the ministry of the apostles began at Pentecost. It is proper, I think, to say that after Pentecost the gospel of christ and the gospel of the kingdom were both proclaimed by the apostles: the gospel of Christ for men's salvation and gospel of the kingdom in the form of the continued preaching of the imminent appearing of the kingdom and of Christ from heaven in response to Israel's conversion (Acts 3:19-21).
3. "The Gospel Which I Preach Among the Gentiles (Galatians 2:2). In context this expression seems to certainly refer to the message of the Gentiles inclusion in God's plan without Israel -- without Israel's ordinances, without Israel's calendar and festivals, and generally without the Law. It does not seem that the term gospel excludes the proclamation of Christ in this passage. However, there is distinctive dimension in this expression which is simply the fact that when Paul preached the gospel of Christ for salvation to Gentiles, he also preached at the same time that their response did not necessarily include the keeping of the law or Jewish expressions of faith; particularly water baptism, the offering of sacrifice in the temple, and circumcision, all of which were required by the Jews for a full proselyte from among the Gentiles.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]MATTHEW 24:14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
DOESN'T SOUND LIKE "[/FONT]the kingdom belongs to the apostles and no one else"
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY FOR SALVATION FOR THE JEW, GENTILE, OR ANY OTHER CATEGORY.............

 

[yeshuasavedme]

PS the word "gospel" simply means "good news" ...

There are tons of issues of "good news" through out the whole of the Bible. Literally hundreds of "gospels".

The "Gospel" of God sidelining his chosen nation Israel ... blinding them ... and saving zillions of Gentiles instead is no where found in the old testament.

In Leviticus 26 is found the various cycles of reproof of Israel but no where is it found that Jews and Gentiles would cease to be ... and a new creation made as a result ... one new man ... a Christian.

.

Israel was made "sons of God" before they were given the Law.
The Law did not make Israel the redeemed sons of God -they were redeemed by the Passover Lamb's blood and brought out of Egypt by the mighty hand of God as a sign of the greater deliverance promised to all in Adam who come under the blood of the New Man,sprinkled on His body, the True Mercy Seat which Moses received the pattern of to copy, as an oracle.
-But AbraHAm was already redeemed and promised the New Man's Living Spirit of regeneration, which was"signed", in the name change given him.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

-trouble posting

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I believe you mean OT.

The question is what does your word "found" mean?

All sorts of antitypes are present in the Old Testament ... scores of them ... and even before the Old Testament ... in the very first books of the Bible even Genesis.

So "found?" yes. But undiscovered because God had not revealed them.

That is what is called in Scriptural parlance "a mystery". Hid in God is another term.

You and I see Jesus all over Isaih 53. But the Jews seemed to have missed the fact ... they even crucified their King.

Here is a very good quote to consider by C.I Scofield ... a favourite of mine.
.

Not so, Tychicum.
Because some did not believe that did not negate the promises of God nor make them of no effect. The law and the prophets testified to Jesus Christ, which testimony is the "spirit" of prophecy -as the angel told John: and Abraham the prophet absolutely saw the complete plan of salvation in the "only begotten" human being Son of God's death, as the Lamb of God, and our substitute", when he was given the complete living oracle of that day which the LORD has made from the foundation of the world to act out as a living prophecy;

and Jesus said Abraham rejoiced in His "Day" which he saw -the Day the LORD has made for our salvation, when our God became our acceptable sacrifice to make an end of sin by being bound to the altar [the cross] and was the "Gate to the City through which the righteous enter in".
The City of God has been understood from the beginning, having been shown to the prophets [as the author of Hebrews said, for they sought that City which has foundations, which they saw "afar off, and the Way was made known to the prophets; nevertheless, they had to wait, for the appointed time was not yet, when sin was to be made an end of and the death in spirit was to end for "whosoever will" of Adam's race. So not all believed, but some did.
Abraham "saw the Day of the Lamb of God" -the only begotten, and he named the Mount Moriah on which Jerusalem sits "YHWH SEEN"; for there YHWH [shall be] seen as the only begotten Son of the Living God, as the Lamb who removes the transgression of Adam.

-and the Psalmist understood it and wrote of it in Psalm 118, a clear picture of what David understood from the time Nathan came to him and told him "God will build 'you' a house", and David was awed and sat before the LORD in amazement at the Gospel of redemption which he was 'shown'.
-and the Hidden in God Son of Man who was to come in flesh whose name was secret -which name the fallen angels desired to look into- is the mystery revealed; though He was to come, He was not come in flesh of the second Man creation until the incarnation -and He is coming again and we who love Him long for His appearing. And "that" is what Paul saw; which is the same which Peter, John, and each and every 'elect' one "sees" who is born again in His New Man Spirit.
"That which hath been from the beginning, which our hands have handled and our eyes have seen" , is the testimony John gives us of that One who was "in the beginning with God and who was God", and which is "the Mystery of godliness now revealed".


1Jo 1:1¶That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;1Jo 1:2
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us1Jo 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

 

[smarcuse]

Originally Posted by me
Right you are, Tychicum! In fact, I do not find that Gentile salivation is connected with the term "gospel" at all.

There are three different, distinguishable gospels in the New Testament. It is the attempts to squash these three distinct gospels into one overiding gospel that leads to much confusion as to what is going on in the New Testament, especially concerning salvation and the relationship between Israel and the Church. You will find that these gospels are quite compatable when allowed to stand on thier own.

These three New Testament Gospels are:

1. "The Gospel of the Kingdom" (Matthew 4:23, 9:35). There are two major aspects to the Gospel of the Kingdom:
   1. the kingdom as at hand, i.e., now available (Matthew 3:1-2; 4:17; 10:5-7).
   2. the kingdom belongs to the apostles and no one else (Matthew 12:32; 21:43) and they are its governors and judges (Like 22:238-30). The government of the kingdom is present in its beginnings. The gospel of the kingdom is simply the good news of the presence of the kingdom in the person of Christ and in the beginnings of its workings and government in the world (compare the important passages in Like 16:16; 11:20; 17:20-21).
2. "The Gospel of Christ" (Romans 1:17; 15:19; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The gospel of Christ is the good news of His person and salvation. The passages cited show that it includes a narrative of His death and resurrection as well as post-resurrection appearances, the saving importance of His death and resurrection and the fact that this message has its source in the Old Testament. (cf. especially 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 and Romans 1:1-4, 17). Paul never calls the Gospel of Christ a "mystery" that was hid before and only now revealed. The church, not the gospel of Christ, is the Pauline mystery that was hid before and only now revealed. It is important that we recognize that this gospel was the common proclamation of both Peter and Paul. It is the basis of the New Testament plan of salvation beginning at Pentecost with its proclamation in the world. It is important to note that this gospel is distinguishable from the gospel of the kingdom precisely because the gospel of the kingdom was proclaimed during Christ's earthly ministry without particular reference to His death and resurrection. The apostles did not even know during the time they proclaimed the gospel of the kingdom that He was going to die and rise again. Christ slowly and privately revealed this to the disciples as they progressed toward Jerusalem, but this was not a matter of public proclamation for salvation until after the ministry of the apostles began at Pentecost. It is proper, I think, to say that after Pentecost the gospel of christ and the gospel of the kingdom were both proclaimed by the apostles: the gospel of Christ for men's salvation and gospel of the kingdom in the form of the continued preaching of the imminent appearing of the kingdom and of Christ from heaven in response to Israel's conversion (Acts 3:19-21).
3. "The Gospel Which I Preach Among the Gentiles (Galatians 2:2). In context this expression seems to certainly refer to the message of the Gentiles inclusion in God's plan without Israel -- without Israel's ordinances, without Israel's calendar and festivals, and generally without the Law. It does not seem that the term gospel excludes the proclamation of Christ in this passage. However, there is distinctive dimension in this expression which is simply the fact that when Paul preached the gospel of Christ for salvation to Gentiles, he also preached at the same time that their response did not necessarily include the keeping of the law or Jewish expressions of faith; particularly water baptism, the offering of sacrifice in the temple, and circumcision, all of which were required by the Jews for a full proselyte from among the Gentiles.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Response by SGM4HIM: [/quote]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]MATTHEW 24:14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]DOESN'T SOUND LIKE "[/FONT]the kingdom belongs to the apostles and no one else"
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY FOR SALVATION FOR THE JEW, GENTILE, OR ANY OTHER CATEGORY.............

Salvation in every dispensation is entirely of God's grace and applied to personal life by faith. The point is that the term "gospel" does not equal salvation. Gospel literally means good news and the content of the good news may differ (and indeed does). The good news of the kingdom was eventually preached to the whole world as was the gospel of Christ. These are NOT two ways of salvation. This was explained in my second point.

The advantage, and source of confusion, with dispensational theology's view of salvation is the aknowledgement of the manifold purposes of God. We see the many things he is doing, including personal salvation through Christ as primary, but as having many additional implications and outworkings and correlated supporting elements (justice, government, economic values, human well being, etc.).

Dispensational Theology establishes a basis for clear view of the church in this dispensation and its responsibilities. We can profit from the revelations of earlier dispensations, and yet distinguish our task from the purposes of others without confusion.[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Genesis 3:15 was very bad news for the serpent and his head.
Genesis 3:15 is the declaration that the work to overthrow the Creator's purpose for humankind as 'son of God', and king and priest of the dominion made for him was already responded to before the fall of the human son of God and the corruption of his dominion, by the Seed of the Woman -who was to come, from the beginning- who would crush the head of the serpent, by allowing the "bruising of His heel".

 

[Tychicum]

Genesis 3:15 was very bad news for the serpent and his head.
Genesis 3:15 is the declaration that the work to overthrow the Creator's purpose for humankind as 'son of God', and king and priest of the dominion made for him was already responded to before the fall of the human son of God and the corruption of his dominion, by the Seed of the Woman -who was to come, from the beginning- who would crush the head of the serpent, by allowing the "bruising of His heel".

So now with the benefit of the Word of God in your own personal possession ... you know that. I know that. But the question is ... did the serpent know it ... ?

Was it "hid in God"? Was it a "Mystery"?

What is more ... did Eve know what it meant? Did Adam? Do you thing that God explained the whole plan to them?

So the danger is reading Backwards our NOW understanding into words spoken several Millennia before. Because to some it appears that the Gospel was spilled at that point. Word was out.

Why would God not want it out?

Why would Jesus speak in cryptic sayings and parables instead of plain explanations?

Could it be that it was a part of the plan to NOT put the gospel out at that time ... ?

Why in heavens name not? ... you might say.

Well apparently even though some thought the gospel was out there from Genesis 3 and the bruised head ... the serpent didn't know. Satan wasn't informed ...

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
(1Co 2:7-8)

Because if they DID know ... they wouldn't have been so stupid and crucified the Lord and done the very thing which set us free.

.