Genesis 3:15 translation help...

Thekla said:

I guess it might be important to find the origin of the word that differs, or in which (if any) stage of translation -- I just read that the DR is tr. from the Vulgate done by Jerome (tr. from the Tanakh in the 4th c.). In short, the DR is a translation of a translation -- and manuscript copyists can make mistakes.

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I am not too partial to Jerome

Jerome and banning Translations - Page 10 - Christian Forums
Jerome and banning Translations

Well I have pretty much did all I can here on this thread. LLOJ withdraws.......

simonthezealot said:

Thanks LL...I aprreciate your work...I wish i understood that stuff better...

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Me too

DD2008 said:

Maybe the translators of the Douay Rheims were trying to build an illicit case for Mary worship. Maybe they worshiped Mary and that was a cause of all the fuss in the 1500's?

Just an idea. I don't know them personally though. It just seems odd that that is the only bible that translates that verse that way and their particular group is notorious for parading around statues of Mary and bowing in prayer to it. So, it does make sense.

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Don't seem odd to me

In the DR it is Mary instead of Jesus crushing satan's head.

And we see it in a ton of marian "art"










On a side note, The above she is her giving out God's grace to men on earth. she is Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces

Don't seem odd to me

In the DR it is Mary instead of Jesus crushing satan's head.

And we see it in a ton of marian "art"

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Sometimes it takes a Woman to beat a Woman

Revelation 12:1 And a Sign, great was seen in the heaven, a Woman having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) the sun and the moon underneath of the feet of her

Reve 17:4 And the Woman was having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) purple and scarlet/kokkinw <2847> and having been gilded to gold and stone, precious, and pearls,

Hmmm, I revere Mary as blessed among women as it says in the Bible:

Luke 1:42 RSV and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

Luke 1:42 KJV And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Luke 1:42 ESV and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

But I'll be completely honest here, the Douay-Rheims translation of Genesis 3:15 kind of creeps me out.

I'd still like to hear from our Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ on this though before passing judgment on them.

&#1492;&#1493;&#1468;&#1488; is the Hebrew word in dispute. It does not indicate gender so a translation into English introduces the translator's bias.



http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=51278686#_ftn3ASV American Standard Version of the Bible

RSV Revised Standard Version of the Bible

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=51278686#_ftnref3Harris, R. L., Harris, R. L., Archer, G. L., & Waltke, B. K. (1999, c1980). Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (electronic ed.) (208). Chicago: Moody Press.

simonthezealot said:

It makes no sense.

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In what way?

I'm pretty sure it does refer to Jesus from what I can remember in the Lutheran Study Bible (I started in Genesis).

Man I wish they had the e-version out (edit...rock on they do - buying now!).

Ok, thanks to the e-book of the LSB

Clearly this verse is not simply about the origin of the conflict between humans and snakes, but about a conflict that will culminate with the defeat of the serpent by One who will descend from the woman. This points to Christ and His defeat of Satan on the cross, and for this reason this verse is often called the "Protevangelium" (the first promise of the Gospel). Her offspring (Hebrew zera, "seed" (singular form can refer to one seed or to an entire group; e.g., Eng, "bag of seed", not "bag of seeds"). It refers to all the descendants of Eve, but most significantly to Christ as the Second Adam, i.e., all humanity reduced to one. He. Presence of other masculine grammatical forms make it clear that Hbr intends the subject to be masculine, not feminine. Vulg inaccurately translated this as a feminine form (she), leading some to interpret this as referring to the Virgin Mary. bruise. Some commentators argue that the two forms of the verb used of the actions of the seed and the serpent are actually from two different Hbr words (e.g., crush...strike in NIV). While there is some support for this among languages related to Hbr, most scholars prefer to take these two forms as being from the same Hbr word. The difference in the degree of injury inflicted does not depend on having two different verbs here but on the differing parts of the body being struck.

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Luther said, (AE 1:193) "Satan understood this threat well;therefore he has continued to rage against human nature with such great hatred. Adam and Eve were encouraged by this promise. Wholeheartedly they grasped the hope of their restoration;and, full of faith, they saw that God cared about their salvation, since He clearly declares that the male Seed of the woman would prostrate this enemy."

In most of what I've read, as well as my college master's theology prof, says the Hebrew term is one we don't have a perfect translation for. "It" would be the closest thing, although it is not personable. The word there is ambiguous . And here for the sake of other views is an article that believes "she" came about as a copyist error. A number of current Protestant translations actually do use "it."

There is a togetherness in Genesis 3:15 that Mary and Jesus are to both have enmity between them and the serpent, and the passage can be fairly understood that the woman crushes the serpent's head through "her" seed. You can see a consistency in this cooperative role of Mary's in the prophecy of Simeon when he prophesies that Jesus will be a savior, and includes Mary in this Passion saying "a sword will pierce your soul too." ( Lk 2:25-35 )

I don't think one should be bothered by statues that show Mary stomping the serpent. If one is well-versed in Marian theology, one knows all her merits are from Christ anyway. In other words, all the good she does, just like you or me, is properly His work. It's kind of like St. Michael the Archangel shown defeating the devil. Does that mean Christ is NOT the devil's defeater? Of course not.

You can also see some ante-types of Mary in the Old Testament smiting the enemy's head (Jael and Judith), as well as David. See here for a really good treatment on that. The two women are also typologically told "blessed are you among women": Jael ( Jg 5:24 ) and Judith ( Judith 13:18 ). These women are ante-types of Mary, and these women are shown to have smote the enemy's head in the OT. That gives strength to using the word "she" in Genesis 3:15, or at least renders it reasonable.

You can also see Paul telling the church at Rome how God will crush the serpent under their feet ( Rm 16:20 ). And Mary is typologically the figure of the Church.