Genesis 2:7 man became a living , when does this occur.

The heart of a foetus, begins to start beating at 5-6 weeks of pregnancy.
A human being, during resuscitation may not be breathing, yet if the heart is still beating, they are considered alive.

icedragon101 said:

I think I might have posed this question last year sometime, but I want to post it again.
About 8 years ago I came to the conclusion that the Mainline Christian teaching of the subject of when life begins is incorrect. After some leading by the Lord on the subject and the study of the Scripture, there is no way I can support the belief that life begins at conception. Scripture does not support it. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says life begins at conception. There is a text that says very specifically when life, the very first life, began. Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

1 Does this text apply to all life?
2. Is this a model for how life is formed in the womb? the first formation then life is breathed into body?
3. Does the word formed mean conscious or unconscious.
4. In all the major text that are used to support life beginning at conception, the word formed us used? does this mean conscience or unconscience?
5. when the breath leave the body it is called death, post-life. Is the part BEFORE the breath enters the body pre-life?
6. If you believe life begins when the blood come into the body, then when is that and what do you call the condition before the blood?

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If I am reading between the lines correctly, it seems you are trying to justify abortion?
Consider the following passage.
Luke 1:44 For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

We know that John was about six months older than Jesus. Since John was still in the womb, that would put Jesus in the first trimester. Does a lifeless tissue mass leap for joy at the presence of another lifeless tissue mass? Surely, you have felt a baby kicking in the womb before. Does lifeless tissue do that?

Also, the flesh is like a corruptible garment. It is temporary. However, if you are hung up on when a life takes his/her first breath, know that a child draws breath through the mother in the womb. Oxygen in the mother's blood goes to the child from the beginning.

icedragon101 said:

you are clearly not trying to understand what I am saying. you hear what you want to hear. My view is the the current view endorsed by the Evangelical world is not biblical. Now where in scripture dose it say "Life begins at conception" that is just not in the scripture. That is not to say that at some point it dose not become a person, just not at conception. it dose not meet the requirements that the scripture uses to defines a person as a person, Namely that you are Body, Soul & Spirit. That criteria does not exist at conception. it exists at some point later in the womb. the text that you quoted above is at 6 months, I will agree with you that by that time it is a person. but I cannot agree with you about what it says about Jesus. It does not say that Jesus was a person. you are reading into the scripture something that is not there. Hebrews 10:5 says " When Christ entered the world a body was prepared for Him" My question is, was he in the body while it was being prepared or after it was being prepared? the text favors AFTER being prepared. This seems to be a trap. the believer wanting to do good has drawn a pre-mature conclusion and hold to it no matter what the scripture actually says. it is like what happend with the Copernicus Revloution, if the church would have followed the scripture it would not have rejected what was said. for the scripture says "these are the out parts of this ways" Job 26:14. this trap could hurt the church very badly making a target when it does not have to be.

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The Bible does not say not to molest your own children. That should be obvious. If one only knows about God from the pages of a book, how weak is that understanding? How pitiful is that faith? Job had no scriptures yet he knew the ways of God more than most today. Those who walk by the spirit understand the ways of God and they know without doubt the value of life. If a matter has to be spelled out in scripture plainly for one to believe, that one only knows about God and not KNOW Him.
I hit the nail on the head but you are not willing to receive it. Could I go out on a limb and say that you also vote Democrat?

icedragon101 said:

you are grasping at straws. I am not a Democrat. ha ha ha, just not an alt right concervative.

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I was right! Biden is your guy. To even use the term "alt right" means I was right. That term is only used by the militant left.

icedragon101 said:

Scripture actually forbids sexual relationship between parent and child, so you example is moot.

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Present the scripture. You can't.

icedragon101 said:

Scripture is very clear you are not a person until you have a body, soul, spirit. If any one of those is missing you are not considered a person. At conception you do not have a body, therefor you cannot be considered a person and you do not have a spirit or soul either.

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Missed the whole point entirely. Some pastors even find justification for shedding innocent blood by abortion in the scriptures. Like I said, if you don't know Him, you don't know Him.

icedragon101 said:

Leviticus 18:6-7

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Nice try. That is about children uncovering their parent's nakedness. That says nothing about parents molesting their own children. Keep looking.

icedragon101 said:

I think I might have posed this question last year sometime, but I want to post it again.
About 8 years ago I came to the conclusion that the Mainline Christian teaching of the subject of when life begins is incorrect. After some leading by the Lord on the subject and the study of the Scripture, there is no way I can support the belief that life begins at conception. Scripture does not support it. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says life begins at conception. There is a text that says very specifically when life, the very first life, began. Genesis 2:7

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Sorry, but there IS... Bible Scripture proof of conception in the womb is when the life begins...

Luke 1:39-42
39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
KJV

That "babe" in Elisabeth's womb of course was John The Baptist.

icedragon101 said:

that is not life beginning at conceptiion. the that is a baby at 6 months old. Why is it so hard for people to understand what I am asking. It seems people are just reacting instead of responding. I agree with you, at some point in the womb it becomes a person that is not in debate. The question WHEN does that happen. 1. @ conception or 2. some time after conception, before birth. i
I am conviced based on the evidence that it is 2.

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So the baby had to wait six months to prove conception in Elisabeths' womb? That's crazy! Some folks will make up anything just to keep from being proven wrong.

icedragon101 said:

I think I might have posed this question last year sometime, but I want to post it again.
About 8 years ago I came to the conclusion that the Mainline Christian teaching of the subject of when life begins is incorrect. After some leading by the Lord on the subject and the study of the Scripture, there is no way I can support the belief that life begins at conception. Scripture does not support it. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says life begins at conception. There is a text that says very specifically when life, the very first life, began. Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

1 Does this text apply to all life?
2. Is this a model for how life is formed in the womb? the first formation then life is breathed into body?
3. Does the word formed mean conscious or unconscious.
4. In all the major text that are used to support life beginning at conception, the word formed us used? does this mean conscience or unconscience?
5. when the breath leave the body it is called death, post-life. Is the part BEFORE the breath enters the body pre-life?
6. If you believe life begins when the blood come into the body, then when is that and what do you call the condition before the blood?

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Adam did not have a Mother, thus your argument friend, does not wash.

Genesis 25:21-26
Easy-to-Read Version
21 Isaac’s wife could not have children. So Isaac prayed to the Lord for her. The Lord heard Isaac’s prayer, and he allowed Rebekah to become pregnant.

22 While Rebekah was pregnant, the babies inside her struggled with one another. She prayed to the Lord and said, “What is happening to me?” 23 The Lord said to her,

“The leaders of two nations are in your body.
Two nations will come from you,
and they will be divided.
One of them will be stronger,
and the older will serve the younger.”

24 When the right time came, Rebekah gave birth to twins. 25 The first baby was red. His skin was like a hairy robe. So he was named Esau.[a] 26 When the second baby was born, he was holding tightly to Esau’s heel. So that baby was named Jacob. Isaac was 60 years old when Jacob and Esau were born.

This text shows that life existed before Birth.

Jeremiah 1:5 ESV
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Job 33:4 ESV
The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

I understand Job as saying that life begins when God gives us the breathe of life.

The Bible does not say if this is at conception. It only says it happens in the womb.
If I were an abortionist, I would not take a chance of being wrong.

BobRyan said:

The Bible calls for the death penalty for killing a baby in the womb "a life for a life" Ex 21:22-24

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From the Hebrew of that text the child is premature birth. The penalty relates to harm to the woman.

However,

"
Deut 25:11 If men are fighting one another[1] and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband[2] from the hand of the one striking him, and she reaches out and grabs hold of[3] his private parts, 25:12 you shall cut off her hand. Show no pity.[4]

The term מבשים (mevushim) is a hapax legomenon likely derived from the stem ב.ו.שׁ (to feel shame, be ashamed), thus denoting “shameful things/parts” or “that which brings shame,” here used as a euphemism for the male genitalia.[5] Thus, the woman is trying to stop the man from hurting her husband by squeezing his testicles.

The verb form of ק.צ.צ used in the punishment is unusual. While in its more frequent piel form the verb usually means to cut,[6] and is used to describe dismemberment,[7] the qal form used here only occurs three other times in the Hebrew Bible—all in Jeremiah (Jer 9:25; 25:23; and 49:32)—where it refers to foreigners having hair that is cut or trimmed (likely at the temples). Nevertheless, context, plus cognate usage in Akkadian (kaṣaṣu) and Aramaic (קצץ), point to the likelihood that קצץ in the qal can also have the meaning “to cut off.”

The term כף (kaph) comes from the stem כפף, which means “to bend, bow, or be bent, bowed.” It is used most commonly in reference to hands, often referring specifically to the palm (that is, the curved part) of the hand,[8] and is also commonly used as a synonym of יד (yad) to refer to the whole hand (Exod 33:22, 23; and Isa 59:6).[9] The reason for the use of כף here as opposed to יד may be to avoid repetition, to clarify that hand is meant and not arm, or perhaps, bring to mind the woman’s grabbing a “handful” of the man’s testicles, highlighting the reason for the sentence.[10]

An Ancient Near Eastern Parallel
The Middle Assyrian Laws A8, lines 78-87, addresses a case that has several similarities to Deuteronomy 25:11–12:

If a woman should crush a man’s ball during a quarrel, they shall cut off one of her fingers. And even if the physician should bandage it, but the second ball then becomes infected (?) along with it and becomes..., or if she should crush the second ball during the quarrel—they shall cut off both her [...]-s.[11]

The two laws have several things in common: a woman getting involved in a fight, the strategy of grabbing a man’s testicles, and a punishment involving dismemberment. There are also some noteworthy differences:

Woman’s Identity—In the biblical law, the woman is specifically the wife of one of the men fighting who intervenes to save her husband. In the Assyrian law, no information is given about the woman’s identity, but she appears to be one of the people involved in the fight, not a bystander who intervenes to save someone.

Damage—In the biblical law, no damage to the testicles is specified. In the Assyrian law, it is stated explicitly that the woman has crushed one of the man’s testicles, and there is the possibility that both testicles are damaged.

Mutilation—While both punishments involve mutilation, the form it takes is somewhat different.

The similarities are probably not substantial enough to indicate a direct correlation between the two laws; rather, both were part of a larger common ancient Near Eastern legal tradition, in which case the potential damage to the man’s testicles might have been a consideration for the authors of the biblical law.[12] This sort of incident likely happened often enough and was considered serious enough that both law collections felt it needed to be addressed.[13]"
A Woman Who Seizes a Man’s Testicles During a Fight, Her Hand is Cut Off - TheTorah.com

Clare73 said:

There is no Scripture that says rattlesnakes are poisonous. . .so feel free to let your children play with rattlesnakes.
If you consult biology, however, you will find they are poisonous.

Origins are not the pattern for going forward. Adam was never an infant or child.

Human life is a biological matter, and biology shows us when human life begins. . .at the union of the female egg and the male sperm into a living single cell, zygote, containing all the DNA genetic material for the complete development of a human being, nothing ever needing to be added, for all stages of life to death.
Human life beings at conception.

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Acts 28:3-5 ESV
When Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and put them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat and fastened on his hand. When the native people saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer. Though he has escaped from the sea, Justice has not allowed him to live.” He, however, shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.

Numbers 21:6 ESV
Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.

To my knowledge rattle snakes did not exist in that part of the world during biblical times.
The Bible does indicate that there were deadly snakes.

I see I am not going to keep up. What are the major points made?

BobRyan said:

The Bible calls for the death penalty for killing a baby in the womb "a life for a life" Ex 21:22-24

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Ex 20:13 condemns murder of a man or woman pregnant or not

Ex 21 deals with the "special" case of a pregnant woman.

Ex 21:
22 “Now if people struggle with each other and strike a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely, but there is no injury (to the baby), the guilty person shall certainly be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Daniel Marsh said:

From the Hebrew of that text the child is premature birth. The penalty relates to harm to the woman.

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You are inserting a qualifier that destroys the text. Your insert results in "strikes a pregnant woman and kills her and she does NOT give birth then no matter that she is killed there is no life-for-life penalty since she did not give birth".

Whereas leaving it as it reads - means that killing the woman is already condemned in Ex 20:13 and Ex 21 is dealing specifically with killing the unborn baby.