Genesis 16:13

[squeehunter]

This verse kind of bothered me.

"Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"" NASV

Hagar (I think) says that after God spoke to her, she was suprised that it didn't kill her. Has this happened in any other parts of the Bible? It's just that it makes me wonder, are a lot of the people who saw God before that seeing him on their deathbed? I just don't trust those Near-Death-Experiences that much...

These other translations make more sense.

"And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?"" KJV

This one still kind of sounds like people died after seeing Him.

"She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me."" NIV

This one is just saying that she now sees God who sees everyone which doesn't seem as weird since Abraham had seen God RIGHT before this part of Genesis.

Maybe my 1960's Bible is just using an outdated translation.

 

[Chickapee]

Hi SqueeHunter


I think it was the angel / messenger of the Lord that spoke to her bro

no one has seen God at any time

she reperesents the Jewish Church even back in the OT

Jhn 1:18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].



Gen 16:9And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Hagar a stranger; one that fears

the fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom ..

flight, or, according to others, stranger, an Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid ( Gen 16:1; 21:9,10), whom she gave to Abraham ( q.v.) as a secondary wife ( 16:2). When she was about to become a mother she fled from the cruelty of her mistress, intending apparently to return to her relatives in Egypt, through the desert of Shur, which lay between. Wearied and worn she had reached the place she distinguished by the name of Beer-lahai-roi ( "the well of the visible God"), where the angel of the Lord appeared to her. In obedience to the heavenly visitor she returned to the tent of Abraham, where her son Ishmael was born, and where she remained ( 16) till after the birth of Isaac, the space of fourteen years. Sarah after this began to vent her dissatisfaction both on Hagar and her child. Ishmael's conduct was insulting to Sarah, and she insisted that he and his mother should be dismissed. This was accordingly done, although with reluctance on the part of Abraham ( Gen 21:14). They wandered out into the wilderness, where Ishmael, exhausted with his journey and faint from thirst, seemed about to die. Hagar "lifted up her voice and wept," and the angel of the Lord, as before, appeared unto her, and she was comforted and delivered out of her distresses ( Gen 21:18,19).

Ishmael afterwards established himself in the wilderness of Paran, where he married an Egyptian ( Gen 21:20,21).

"Hagar" allegorically represents the Jewish church ( Gal 4:24), in bondage to the ceremonial law; while "Sarah" represents the Christian church, which is free.

I think translations can be tricky
it is so good that you look into many of them for confirmation in your spirit
I know that many of the greek and Hebrew meanings are different than our standard English understanding
God bless you .. C

 

[calluna]

This verse kind of bothered me.

"Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"" NASV

Hagar (I think) says that after God spoke to her, she was suprised that it didn't kill her. Has this happened in any other parts of the Bible?

'So Jacob called the place Peniel [facing God], saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."' Ge 32:30 NIV

'But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no-one may see me and live."' Ex 33:20 NIV

'When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realised that it was the angel of the Lord. "We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"' Jdg 13:21-22 NIV

 

[squeehunter]

Ah okay, thanks guys. To fully understand scripture you need to know all of it already. I guess it takes a long time then and many rereadings. I'm just starting on the Old Testament.

 

[Jpark]

No angel can receive worship, which belongs to God alone. The mystery is solved in this text where the Angel of the Lord is revealed to be the Lord God. But how could Moses and other OT persons have seen God face-to-face and lived since Scripture clearly states the contrary? The answer: because they saw the Son of God in a preincarnate form, known in the OT as the Angel of the Lord the "Messenger [Angel] of the covenant". Theophanies were sometimes accomplished through intermediary angels. A Christophany (preincarnate appearance of the Messiah)

 

[p.progress]

This verse kind of bothered me.

"Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"" NASV

Hagar (I think) says that after God spoke to her, she was suprised that it didn't kill her. Has this happened in any other parts of the Bible? It's just that it makes me wonder, are a lot of the people who saw God before that seeing him on their deathbed? I just don't trust those Near-Death-Experiences that much...

These other translations make more sense.

"And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?"" KJV

This one still kind of sounds like people died after seeing Him.

"She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me."" NIV

This one is just saying that she now sees God who sees everyone which doesn't seem as weird since Abraham had seen God RIGHT before this part of Genesis.

Maybe my 1960's Bible is just using an outdated translation.

I think that the quote from the AV (KJV) appears to me to best fit the meaning: "And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
Where the translators came up with the additional idea that, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" - I have no idea.

But it is not that any have died from seeing God as Hagar did or as Samson's parents saw him, or Jacob, or Abraham, or Moses. They all were surprized they lived, but there is no so-called 'near death' experience involved here.

"Then Manoah knew that he [was] an angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God." [Judges 13:21-22]

"And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. For who [is there of] all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we [have], and lived?" [Deut.5:24-26]


"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." [Ex.33:11]


And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." [Ex.33:19-20]



Read the context. Farewell.

 

[James 1:27]

Hagar was surprised, in awe, that Abraham's God (the God of the universe) saw her, a mere slave of Sarah. Even though Abraham and Sarah rejected her and Ishmael, God saw to their needs, sustained them and promised a future to Hagar's son, Ishmael. That's why she called him the God -Who-Sees. I pray God will bless your study of the Old Testament. It is eye opening and gives the full picture of the New Testament.

 

[calluna]

I think that the quote from the AV

Authorised? Authorised by whom?

 

[Simonline]

This verse kind of bothered me.

"Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"" NASV

Hagar (I think) says that after God spoke to her, she was suprised that it didn't kill her. Has this happened in any other parts of the Bible? It's just that it makes me wonder, are a lot of the people who saw God before that seeing him on their deathbed? I just don't trust those Near-Death-Experiences that much...

These other translations make more sense.

"And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?"" KJV

This one still kind of sounds like people died after seeing Him.

"She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me."" NIV

This one is just saying that she now sees God who sees everyone which doesn't seem as weird since Abraham had seen God RIGHT before this part of Genesis.

Maybe my 1960's Bible is just using an outdated translation.

The Scriptures teach that no man can see God and live (Gen.32:30; Ex.33:20; et al.). This is because nothing that is unholy can survive in the presence of Him Who is Absolute Holiness. This is why people during the time of the Old Testament were so utterly bowled over by the fact that they had had a direct encounter with God and lived to tell the tale. There were those people in Old Testament times to whom YHWH graciously appeared and they lived to tell the tale (that's why it is specifically mentioned in the Scriptural account). They were so over-awed that a) YHWH would be even remotely personally interested in them and b) that they had survived a personal encounter with the One Who, alone, is Absolute Reality and that He had deigned to be so gracious with them.

Hagar was effectively 'thinking out loud' in declaring (in a spirit of incredulity) 'Did I really encounter God and live?!'. In other words, she knew that it was true that she had indeed encountered God and survived but she just couldn't believe how fortunate she had been in not being 'struck down dead'.

Sadly, in this day and age, we so take God for granted that it borders on familiarity breeding contempt. Society in general and the Church in particular has all but lost any sense of awesome fear and reverence for God, the realization of the mind-boggling true Nature of God. We would do well to do all that we can to recover that true sense of perspective.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Authorised? Authorised by whom?

Authorized in 1611 by His Majesty King James I of England (VI of Scotland). If you know nothing of the religious history of the British Isles then you will not understand what was meant by being 'authorized' or why it was so important.

The Authorized Version (the correct name for what our American brethren call 'the King James Version') was so called because, in 1611, it was the only version of the Scriptures, written in English, that was authorized to be used in every church throughout the realm. Anyone caught using any other version (such as the Myles Coverdale or William Tyndale Versions prefered by Low Church (i.e. Evangelical) Puritans) was liable for severe censure (including the forfiture of their life).

The 'authorization' was more a political rather than a theological mesure (though there was a theological aspect to it - James preferred High Church (i.e. closer to Roman Catholicism) Anglicanism) in order to try and bring religious stability to the realm after the extemely violent and bloody religious conflicts that were the consequence of Henry VIII's political cessation from Rome and the influence of the sixteenth century Reformation on Britain.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

No angel can receive worship, which belongs to God alone. The mystery is solved in this text where the Angel of the Lord is revealed to be the Lord God. But how could Moses and other OT persons have seen God face-to-face and lived since Scripture clearly states the contrary? The answer: because they saw the Son of God in a preincarnate form, known in the OT as the Angel of the Lord the "Messenger [Angel] of the covenant". Theophanies were sometimes accomplished through intermediary angels. A Christophany (preincarnate appearance of the Messiah)

Two things...

Firstly, an angel is much more than a messenger (i.e. a glorified postman).

The correct non-religious / non-theological definition of an angel is 'one doing the bidding of another' and as such can apply to anyone (or anything) that is doing the bidding of another (which is why the Son is referred to as the Angel of the Lord (i.e. the Father's angel) since He always does the will of His Father Jn.4:34; 6:38-39). The elohim (a.k.a. spirit beings or 'mighty ones') are called 'angels' because they were specifically created to do God's bidding (Heb.1:7,14).

Secondly, there is no such thing as a 'Christophany' since the Christ or Messiah is YHWH Himself, incarnate as a man. Since the incarnation only came about sometime between 6 and 4 BC then the Christ did not exist prior to that time. The Son may have made Theophanic appearances prior to that time (as the Angel of the Lord) but He could not have made any Christophanic appearances prior to that time since He did not come into existence as the Christ or Messiah until that time.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Hi SqueeHunter


I think it was the angel / messenger of the Lord that spoke to her bro

no one has seen God at any time

It was the Angel of the Lord with Whom Hagar had a personal encounter and, since the Angel of the Lord is Himself the Lord (notice how the Angel always speaks in the first Person ('I', 'Me') rather than the second Person ('He', 'Him') cf. Gen.21:17-18; 22:11-12) then Hagar, like Abraham, had had a personal encounter with God (i.e. the Angel of the Lord) and survived.

When the Scriptures declare that 'no man has seen God at any time' what they really mean is that no man has seen the Father at any time but since the Scriptures reveal YHWH to be Tri-Personal rather than Mono-Personal then it cannot be true that no man has seen the One Tri-Personal God at any time because the Scriptures declare that several people have had personal encounters with the One and Only God, just not with the Father.

she reperesents the Jewish Church even back in the OT

How could Hagar represent the Jewish Church when she wasn't even a member of the Jewish nation or part of the ancestral line?! Hagar was a Gentile whom God graciously blessed but neither she, her son, nor his descendents were included in the covenant that God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Gen.17:19-21).

Jhn 1:18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

This is a reference only to the non-corporeal Father in Heaven whom the Messiah has now revealed and not to the Tri-Personal God in entirety (otherwise the Scriptures (and therefore God (2Tim.3:16-17)) would be contradicting themselves).

Gen 16:9And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Hagar a stranger; one that fears

the fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom ..

flight, or, according to others, stranger, an Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid ( Gen 16:1; 21:9,10), whom she gave to Abraham ( q.v.) as a secondary wife ( 16:2).

Hagar was one who feared God but she was not part of the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen.17:19-21).

When she was about to become a mother she fled from the cruelty of her mistress, intending apparently to return to her relatives in Egypt, through the desert of Shur, which lay between. Wearied and worn she had reached the place she distinguished by the name of Beer-lahai-roi ( "the well of the visible God"), where the angel of the Lord appeared to her.

No, the place is called 'the well of the God who sees' (i.e. who makes provision for) in the same way that God saw to the needs of Abraham in providing a sacrificial ram to replace Isaac (Gen.22:13-14), since God provided for the needs of Hagar and Ishmael so that they did not die in the wilderness..

In obedience to the heavenly visitor she returned to the tent of Abraham, where her son Ishmael was born, and where she remained ( 16) till after the birth of Isaac, the space of fourteen years. Sarah after this began to vent her dissatisfaction both on Hagar and her child. Ishmael's conduct was insulting to Sarah, and she insisted that he and his mother should be dismissed. This was accordingly done, although with reluctance on the part of Abraham ( Gen 21:14). They wandered out into the wilderness, where Ishmael, exhausted with his journey and faint from thirst, seemed about to die. Hagar "lifted up her voice and wept," and the angel of the Lord, as before, appeared unto her, and she was comforted and delivered out of her distresses ( Gen 21:18,19).

Ishmael afterwards established himself in the wilderness of Paran, where he married an Egyptian ( Gen 21:20,21).

This is true (unlike the following part).

"Hagar" allegorically represents the Jewish church ( Gal 4:24), in bondage to the ceremonial law; while "Sarah" represents the Christian church, which is free.

This is not even remotely true being an indication of the latent antisemitism with which the Christian Church has been cursed for almost the past two millennia. There is absolutley no Scriptural mandate to allegorize the Old Testament. Such a false hermeneutic is the foundation of the heretical Replacement Theology that seeks to displace and usurp the authentic Jewish nature of the one true faith (Rom.9-11) with a pagan 'Gentile Christian' nature [See: The Land Of Many Names / The People Of Many Names by Steve Maltz http://www.stevemaltz.com/books.htm#land ]

Hagar and Ishmael represent those who live according to the flesh, be they Jewish or Gentile, whereas those within the Abrahamic covenant represent those who live by faith, according to the Spirit (Rom.2:17-29) again, be they Jewish or Gentile. That's why the Abrahamic covenant requires its male members to be circumcised as a seal of the fact that Righteousness comes by faith alone. The contrast is between believer and unbeliever, not Jew and Christian.

Any Jew who is in legalistic bodage to the Law (i.e. in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Law into legalism) is, by definition, not a part of the ekklesia, Jewish or Gentile. It is exactly this perversion of the Law into a system of legalism that the Messiah and the apostles so vehemently opposed. Contrary to popular opinion, the Messiah and the apostles were not opposed to the Law itself (Rom.7:12) but to its perversion into legalism by those who refused to live by faith within a Hebraic context.

Simonline.

 

[Chickapee]

Originally Posted by Chickapee

"Hagar" allegorically represents the Jewish church ( Gal 4:24), in bondage to the ceremonial law; while "Sarah" represents the Christian church, which is free.
​

This is not even remotely true being an indication of the latent antisemitism with which the Christian Church has been cursed for almost the past two millennia. There is absolutley no Scriptural mandate to allegorize the Old Testament. Such a false hermeneutic is the foundation of the heretical Replacement Theology that seeks to displace and usurp the authentic Jewish nature of the one true faith (Rom.9-11) with a pagan 'Gentile Christian' nature [See: The Land Of Many Names / The People Of Many Names by Steve Maltz http://www.stevemaltz.com/books.htm#land ]

I am sorry but I dont say this Paul does! it is biblical , please look for yourself , do you not believe in the New Testament ? ESV
Example of Hagar and Sarah

21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons,(AC) one by a slave woman and(AD) one by a free woman. 23But(AE) the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while(AF) the son of the free woman was born through promise.


24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: !!!


these women are two(AG) covenants.(AH) One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;[e] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But(AI) the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

(AJ) "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband."
28Now you,[f] brothers,(AK) like Isaac,(AL) are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh(AM) persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit,(AN) so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say?(AO) "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but(AP) of the free woman.

 

[calluna]

Authorized in 1611 by His Majesty King James I of England (VI of Scotland).

Documentary evidence, please.