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WELCOME!
I agree with your observation - the "earth was without form, and void" is describing a state of devastation or chaos, rather than a pristine, newly created earth.
II did a few animations, which I made use of in a blog, but so far it has not been approved, and I have no idea what's happening there, otherwise, i could have shared the link with you.
Since the topic is at hand, and I don't want to wait, I might as well go ahead and share that here.
CREATION
Day 1 begins Genesis 1:1 View attachment 353757 Description : What is happening...
The heavens are created, with the sun, moon, and stars, and the earth is in the process of forming.
The magma making the core is expelling hot volcanic ash, and as the rock cools, volcanoes are erupting.
All this debris, ash, and gas spewed into the atmosphere, is trapped, and the earth is shrouded in darkness, as the sun's light is blocked out.
You could well appreciate how chaotic the earth would be, with volcanoes, and magma flowing through the rock, and then the liquid water that burst from the mantle, mixing with some lava flow.
That would certainly describe an earth that was formless, and desolate.
Anyways. What we do know is the earth was created and it was covered completely in water (God did not make the land to appear yet). So earth with just water - it would be formless (no topology) and it would be void (nothing has been created yet). Not sure where you get that the Earth was in chaos or a state of devastation. Seems pretty quiet and calm to me as the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
I hope you do not believe that no one understands the Bible, because, according to the scriptures, which is God's word, people do understand, and those who don't are described as wicked. Daniel 12:9, 10; Revelation 1:3; Revelation 22:7
Recall that Jesus said that only a "special kind" of people will understand God's sayings, since it depends a lot on a quality that God loves - humility. Matthew 13:10-16
Since God hates pride, the ones who are not like children... willing to be instructed, will never understand, because God hides the understanding from them. Matthew 11:25, 26
It's always best to follow the explanations in the Bible itself, and those who are the servants of God, described in Daniel 12:10, can help, because God give them the spirit of wisdom, and understanding. Exodus 28:3; Deuteronomy 34:9; Isaiah 11:2
Recall, how Stephen was described. The Bible says they "could stand against the wisdom and the Spirit with which Stephen spoke", because he was full of God's grace. Acts 6:8-10
Phillip, the zealous evangelizer was led by the spirit to help an Ethiopian Eunuch in the desert. Acts 8:25-40
Likewise, the apostles were zealous in helping people to learn the truth. Acts 5:41, 42
Paul too... His zeal was evident. Acts 17:16, 17; Acts 20:18-21
All of these were given the spirit of understanding.
Today, God is doing the same for those of his servants.
Theories that were proven wrong was science.
Science does not refer to something that is right only. Science is a study, and the discoveries and finding can be overturned, replaced, and false.
There are many examples of this.
We would not hear scientist say, because a scientific theory was replaced, or doubted, it is not science.
Some scientific theories have been accepted for decades, before being discovered to be wrong, and replaced.
Some theories today have problems, and there are uncertainties regarding their "truthfulness".
The reason persons tend to put science in the light that it is science, only if it is right, is because they put science on a level that it does not, and cannot belong. This is called Scientism, and many scientist talk about this in a very negative way... even referring to some scientist as being too proud.
Hubris, exemplified in the demands we make on science, is a major obstacle to coming to grips with our situation. We are obsessed with trying to predict, manage, and control nature, and consequently we pour immense intellectual and fiscal resources into huge research programs—from the Human Genome Project to the U.S. Global Change Research Program—aimed at this unattainable goal. On the other hand, we devote little effort to the apparently modest yet absolutely essential question of how, given our unavoidable limits, we can manage to live in harmony with the world that we have inherited and are continually remaking.
It is expected though, since scientists are men, and women... not robots, and these are affected by sin as well. The risk of hubris affects politicians, leaders in business, scientists, academia, the military, entertainers, athletes and doctors (among many others). Power, especially absolute and unchecked power, is intoxicating and is manifested behaviourally in a variety of ways, ranging from amplified cognitive functions to lack of inhibition, poor judgment, extreme narcissism, deviant behaviour, and even cruelty. Hubristic behaviour of overconfidence, extreme pride together with an unwillingness to disregard advice makes powerful people in leadership positions to over-reach themselves with negative consequences for themselves and others.
In 1996 scientists announced the astonishing news that they’d discovered what they believed might be signs of ancient life inside a meteorite from Mars. In 2014 astrophysicists declared that they’d found direct evidence at last for the “inflationary universe” theory, first proposed in the 1980s.
What these assertions had in common was that they were based on research by highly qualified, credentialed scientists—and also that the "discoveries" turned out to be wrong. Today essentially nobody thinks the meteorite contained persuasive evidence that it once harbored life, or that the astrophysicists had found anything more exciting than dust in the Milky Way.
This sort of backtracking isn’t unusual. In part, it happens because scientists almost always have to revise cutting-edge research, or even retract it, as the scientific community tries to replicate it and fails, or as more and better evidence comes in.
I believe you believe "the notion that science is “proven wrong” is indeed a common misconception".
However, sometimes what we believe may not be based on facts, but our personal feelings, and thus, it may call for us to make adjustments, based on facts we are presented with.
I hope I was helpful in some way.
Science came on TV a few years ago and said plainly and loudly “If you get the Covid shot you will not get Covid”. Science said that on national TV. lol
Hi ill make it even easier what was created before the flood was destroyed in the flood so the only thing that concerns us is the creation of the first creation after the flood thing God created was the first Adam of this creation Israel that did not work God began a new creation with Christ
2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
[17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Easier for you Dave?
It's hard for me to know from these comments, if you believe the sun existed on day one.
It's also hard for me to figure out if you think the stars David... The shepherd boy looked up at during the night watches were not the same stars God created before the flood, and if the ground he walked on, was not the same rock God created before the flood.
That's really hard Dave. I don't have the supernatural abilities Christ has, so I would have to ask.
Thank you.
We agree that Day 1 begins with the creation of the heavens and earth.
I'm not sure where you read that the creation was 6000 years ago and took 6, 24 hour days, though.
Since we agree on something though, perhaps there would be a good place to start.
Would you say the bible is clear on what were the heavens God created at Genesis 1:1?
Oh. Another question... If a day is "based on one rotation of the earth, then according to Genesis 2:4, would that not mean that it took God one day of 24 hours, to create the heavens and the earth?
How is that possible, unless the earth was made prior to the first second of one rotation... and before the heavens were actually created?
Since as you agree, Day 1 started at Genesis 1:1, it would require only one millionth of second to create the heavens and the earth, before the earth starts to rotate. So that would not be 24 hours long.
What do you mean?
I thought you said day one started at Genesis 1:1.
Did the Bible not say there that God created the heavens and the earth?
How did I make that up? Verse 2 describes the state of the earth... saying, the earth was formless and emptiness.
Anyways. What we do know is the earth was created and it was covered completely in water (God did not make the land to appear yet). So earth with just water - it would be formless (no topology) and it would be void (nothing has been created yet). Not sure where you get that the Earth was in chaos or a state of devastation. Seems pretty quiet and calm to me as the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
What do you mean by "earth was just water"? Earth is not water, and water is not earth. Is it?
If you said the earth was covered with water, would a child not make sense of that?
Even if water is found floating in space, scientists do not refer to it as a planet. A planet has structure.
So, it is hard to make sense of the statement. "the earth is just water".
Science came on TV a few years ago and said plainly and loudly “If you get the Covid shot you will not get Covid”. Science said that on national TV. lol
Thank you.
We agree that Day 1 begins with the creation of the heavens and earth.
I'm not sure where you read that the creation was 6000 years ago and took 6, 24 hour days, though.
Since we agree on something though, perhaps there would be a good place to start.
Would you say the bible is clear on what were the heavens God created at Genesis 1:1?
I think Genesis does an amazing job explaining a very complicated creation in a few short Chapters. The heaven would be the complete environment outside of earth (space). I think that’s a pretty clear illustration.
Oh. Another question... If a day is "based on one rotation of the earth, then according to Genesis 2:4, would that not mean that it took God one day of 24 hours, to create the heavens and the earth?
How is that possible, unless the earth was made prior to the first second of one rotation... and before the heavens were actually created?
Since as you agree, Day 1 started at Genesis 1:1, it would require only one millionth of second to create the heavens and the earth, before the earth starts to rotate. So that would not be 24 hours long.
Yeah I think most of us understand that a day is not always exactly 24 hours and I used it in the context that I’m referring to a normal day like we see today.
What do you mean?
I thought you said day one started at Genesis 1:1.
Did the Bible not say there that God created the heavens and the earth?
How did I make that up? Verse 2 describes the state of the earth... saying, the earth was formless and emptiness.
What do you mean by "earth was just water"? Earth is not water, and water is not earth. Is it?
If you said the earth was covered with water, would a child not make sense of that?
Even if water is found floating in space, scientists do not refer to it as a planet. A planet has structure.
So, it is hard to make sense of the statement. "the earth is just water".
The earth is water and every other element and mineral that the earth is comprised of. I never said the earth was just water.
Check this out: if the earth today had no topology (no hill or valleys- a completely smooth globe - formless). What you’d see is a planet (earth) completely submersed in water 2 miles deep. The topology is why we see dry land
Day began when the light came over the horizon to shine on the earth. Science does not know exactly when this happened. The first day in the Bible is 8 billion years. The moon is slowing down the spin rate of the earth. So the first day on earth could have been only 6 hours. Of course in Alaska there are times when they only have 6 hours of light.
The creation of Eden which Science calls a biodiverse eco system was 6,000 years ago. When we find Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They are the first of many, many, many things. As Bishop Ussher said. The Bible does not talk about what took place before Adam and Eve. Only we are told in Genesis chapter one that God gave man the whole earth. Not just Eden. I think this is why man has to be a part of God redemption program.
When we look at the story of Noah we can see what Noah saved on His ark. We know that Eden was destroyed to where no one can find it today. But Noah did save all the plants and animals that were in Eden that we read about in our Bible. It is interesting because Moses gives us a very exact description of where Eden was. For example Moses talks about Gold and those Gold mines are still there after 6,000 years. There is an archeologist on YouTube that has been to those mines.
Science came on TV a few years ago and said plainly and loudly “If you get the Covid shot you will not get Covid”. Science said that on national TV. lol
"Science" also said you can not fly on an airplane or go to a sporting event if you do not get the vaccine. My wife would have got fired if she did not get the vaccine. Bill Gates is the person who planned all that as sure as he ran his y2K2 scam back in the year 2,000. Buffet and Gates have their hand in a lot of peoples pockets while they are very good at controlling their public image.
My son actually did work for Pfizer to set up their network. I can assure you my son does very good work and no one is going to break into that network. But he does set up the system to print out the information the FDA wants about all the ingredients that goes into medicine. Even he did the same for Welches. The government wants to know everything that goes into a jar of jelly.
Bill Gates is an investor. You can be sure if he is investing in a vaccine that he is going to get a very good return on that investment. What is brilliant is the way he calls his Foundation "philanthropist" to avoid having to pay taxes on the money that He invests. He actually owns 10% of Pfizer though a holding company so that he can cover up how much stock he owns in that company.
Day began when the light came over the horizon to shine on the earth. Science does not know exactly when this happened. The first day in the Bible is 8 billion years.
Interesting. However the Bible says something a little different.
“For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
Exodus 20:11
May be the earth was born.......... Genesis = the origin or mode of formation of something
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
The womb.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters,
Amniotic Fluid/Membrane that protects the earth
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so
Growth
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Enter the soul
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
The cells multiplying
After this there was the great flood & the earth was born to carry on growing from the eight cells. We are the micro of the macro.
This is just a theory. I have very often asked myself, could we & the earth be the micro of God who is the macro. To understand this better here is a link. There are 75 Verses About The Womb In The Bible
Hosea 11:1 is said by the New Testament to refer to Jesus:
“and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."” (Mt 2:15 NKJV)
I agree that God made man in His image out of the dust. Thanks for replying.
Thank you David for replying the saying applies to both Christ and Israel if you look how Israel is constructed you will see how God and the heavenly host is constructed and this is what God wants to achieve man in Gods image is Israel when they came out of Egypt.
Israel is the man of God in the flesh he must come first then he must die and be raised up a spiritual man as we must by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
As for the dust of the earth
Genesis 13:16 ESV
[16] I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted.
I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted.
bible.com
So its the human race who are the dust of the earth and out of us God will make man in his image Israel is a prototype to let us know what he looks like.
Then where did the earth come from?
If the six creative days did not start with the creation of the heavens and earth, there is no earth for light to shine on.
There is no sun to shine light over the horizon.
If the six creative days did not start with the creation of the heavens and earth, there is no earth for light to shine on.
There is no sun to shine light over the horizon.
There were lots of stars or suns. Our earth is made up of elements that came from stars that lived out their life and died. We know this from spectrographs. Each element in a star emits light at specific wavelengths, which correspond to different colors.
The first day was 8 billion years because that was how long the universe was in existence before our sun and Earth were formed. The second day is 4 billion years. Each day is half the length of the day before it. Looking forward from the beginning is different than look back on the past.
When we look forward, esp as kids, life looks like an eternity, even though we go through 6 days or stages in life. When we look back it is like do not blink or you will miss it. I have two sons 20 years apart. The first one seemed to take forever to raise. The second one the time flew by amazingly fast.
There were lots of stars or suns. Our earth is made up of elements that came from stars that lived out their life and died. We know this from spectrographs. Each element in a star emits light at specific wavelengths, which correspond to different colors.
The first day was 8 billion years because that was how long the universe was in existence before our sun and Earth were formed. The second day is 4 billion years. Each day is half the length of the day before it. Looking forward from the beginning is different than look back on the past.
When we look forward, esp as kids, life looks like an eternity, even though we go through 6 days or stages in life. When we look back it is like do not blink or you will miss it. I have two sons 20 years apart. The first one seemed to take forever to raise. The second one the time flew by amazingly fast.
According to Genesis...
Did day 1 begin with the creation of the heavens and the earth... by God?
Do you believe God did not create the heavens and the earth, as stated in Genesis?
What are the heavens, in Genesis 1:1?
Black holes still have an event horizon. The first "day" began very close to the beginning if you look at it from that perspective. But the first "day" on Earth was 8 billion years after the beginning of the Universe. Or more accurate the beginning of time. Before time began, the universe began as an incredibly hot, dense point, often referred to as a singularity2.
The first day was 8 billion years because that was how long the universe was in existence before our sun and Earth were formed. The second day is 4 billion years. Each day is half the length of the day before it. Looking forward from the beginning is
Why do you assume that I am assuming there was a gap somewhere between verse 1 and verse 5?
Can you point out in my post, where I made that assumption?
I'm asking those who believe in YEC, when Day 1 began.
Since you believe in YEC, can you answer this for me?
I am sorry if I made an unwarranted assumption. I suppose I took the fact that you don't believe in a young earth, together with the other points mentioned in your post, to mean that you believe in a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Apologies!
As to your question about when I believe Day 1 began, I take Day 1 as beginning when God began creating. After each "section" of Creation, including the first, Genesis 1 states: "And the evening and the morning were the ____ day."
According to Genesis...
Did day 1 begin with the creation of the heavens and the earth... by God?
Do you believe God did not create the heavens and the earth, as stated in Genesis?
What are the heavens, in Genesis 1:1?
The universe is 13.8 billion years old. The earth is 4.54 billion years ago. So the first day was 9.6 billion years. God created the Heavens and the Earth on the first day. Each day is half the length of the day that came before it.
In science, we observe and measure phenomena, and from these observations, we infer the underlying principles or laws.
Gerald Schroeder, who holds a PhD from MIT, has written extensively on the intersection of science and religion
It talks about a 6 day creation too…but the Bible doesn’t always mean what it says. Death, resurrection, new body, eternal life. I asked my science friend about that and he laughed at me.
I am sorry if I made an unwarranted assumption. I suppose I took the fact that you don't believe in a young earth, together with the other points mentioned in your post, to mean that you believe in a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Apologies!
In Genesis 2:4, we are told that Chapter 2 is giving an account, or history of creation. Genesis 2 is therefore not a continuation of Genesis 1, but a history of some events and details not mentioned in Genesis 1.
For example, Genesis 2 helps us appreciate that Adam - the man, was created long before the woman - Eve.
It also tells us that God was creating animal life, after Adam was created, and God was bringing those animals to Adam, to see what Adam would name them.