genesis 1:1-2

[issa]

1 says God made heavens and earth then
2 says the world was empty.

could this mean God created a universe but was destroyed when God threw lucifer down with the angels and then He built it all over again in 7 days?

 

[justified]

1 says God made heavens and earth then
2 says the world was empty.

could this mean God created a universe but was destroyed when God threw lucifer down with the angels and then He built it all over again in 7 days?

There are innumerable arguments against this. You are referring specifically to the "gap theory" which unfortunately relies on poor evidence. It's better to view the first chapter of Genesis as a poetic form, with 1:1 and 2:1 (see below). This is relatively common in Hebrew (and generally Semitic) poetry.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
||
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

 

[dcyates]

1 says God made heavens and earth then
2 says the world was empty.

could this mean God created a universe but was destroyed when God threw lucifer down with the angels and then He built it all over again in 7 days?

Although justified's response above is a good one, I think it's worth noting that Genesis 1.1 would probably be more accurately translated as: "When God began to create heaven and earth--the earth being formless and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and the Spirit/wind from God sweeping over the water--God said, 'Let there be light'; and there was light" (JPS). Or: "At the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth, when the earth was wild and waste, darkness over the face of the Ocean , rushing-spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters" (The Shocken Bible).

In other words, the emphasis is on the description of the conditions present at or when God ordered the cosmos.

 

[justified]

Right. We are quite sure that "the earth was empty and void," or whichever adjectives you choose, refers to a watery chaos which was the building material of the universe as the Hebrews saw it.

 

[pugby]

God created the earth that was "without form and void". Then he did all the other great stuff. So God started with nothing, created an empty world and then formed it into the earth as known over the next 6 days followed by rest. These first 2 verses of the Bible are 2 of the most challenging for me to understand.

 

[HypnoToad]

There are innumerable arguments against this. You are referring specifically to the "gap theory" which unfortunately relies on poor evidence. It's better to view the first chapter of Genesis as a poetic form, with 1:1 and 2:1 (see below). This is relatively common in Hebrew (and generally Semitic) poetry.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
||
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

Although you're correct about the Gap Theory being a very poor one, it is NOT correct to refer to Genesis as "poetry". The Hebrew indicator for direct objects is hardly ever used in Hebrew poetry, but it is used in Gen.1&2. There are other word structures present that are used exclusively in Hebrew prose, never in poetry.

 

[justified]

Although you're correct about the Gap Theory being a very poor one, it is NOT correct to refer to Genesis as "poetry". The Hebrew indicator for direct objects is hardly ever used in Hebrew poetry, but it is used in Gen.1&2. There are other word structures present that are used exclusively in Hebrew prose, never in poetry.

I'd like to hear about them, since you brought it up. I am pretty well familiar with Hebrew, and I have no problem referring to it as poetic. And btw, I refer only to genesis 1:1-2:4a as poetic.

 

[mark kennedy]

1 says God made heavens and earth then
2 says the world was empty.

could this mean God created a universe but was destroyed when God threw lucifer down with the angels and then He built it all over again in 7 days?

I have heard people who teach something like that. It's the idea that the creation in Genesis was not the first one. If there was some great cosmic battle it would have left the earth in utter darkness and completely covered with water. I don't know how you could connect the war in heaven, that is still going on, with the primordial conditions of the earth.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[HypnoToad]

I'd like to hear about them, since you brought it up. I am pretty well familiar with Hebrew, and I have no problem referring to it as poetic. And btw, I refer only to genesis 1:1-2:4a as poetic.

Go ask Walter Kaiser Jr.

 

[justified]

Go ask Walter Kaiser Jr.

Ummm, ok. Now I disagree entirely. Everyone BUT Kaiser sees Gen. 1:1-2:4a as a hymn -- late in composition may it be. Although the DO-marker is rare in poetry, it is not unheard-of. I'm more than able to adduce a bunch of examples. But I can't see the point if you're just going to give a name.

 

[FreezBee]

Although justified's response above is a good one, I think it's worth noting that Genesis 1.1 would probably be more accurately translated as: "When God began to create heaven and earth--the earth being formless and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and the Spirit/wind from God sweeping over the water--God said, 'Let there be light'; and there was light" (JPS). Or: "At the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth, when the earth was wild and waste, darkness over the face of the Ocean , rushing-spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters" (The Shocken Bible).

In other words, the emphasis is on the description of the conditions present at or when God ordered the cosmos.

Excuse me for asking, but is that fitting the text to a theory, or do the Hebrew words actually support this?

I agree that Gen 1:1 can be interpreted not as a finished action, but as a preface to the entire creation, but if so, who put the matter in their in the first round?

The main question would of course be exactly what the word "bara" ("created") implies.


- FreezBee

 

[HypnoToad]

Ummm, ok. Now I disagree entirely. Everyone BUT Kaiser sees Gen. 1:1-2:4a as a hymn -- late in composition may it be. Although the DO-marker is rare in poetry, it is not unheard-of. I'm more than able to adduce a bunch of examples. But I can't see the point if you're just going to give a name.

"Everyone" but Kaiser says it's poetry??

I did a Yahoo search on the phrase "genesis poetry". The very first two links are these:
http://www.ldolphin.org/genmyth.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c022.html
- people who are NOT Kaiser who argue it isn't poetry.

So, your statement is either uninformed or a deception. Either way isn't great support for your view.

 

[FreezBee]

"Everyone" but Kaiser says it's poetry??

...

Not really to interfer with your little discussion, but while Genesis 1 isn't typical of Hebrew poetry - compare e.g. to the creation stories in Psalm 8 and Job 38 - the question is what we mean by poetry?

I checked with your first link, and the title of that page is "Is Genesis Poetry or Historic Narrative?".

The tricky bit here is that accepting Genesis as "historic narrative" in style implies nothing but that it follows a specific style, not that it is necessarily meant to be taken literally.

The question is, what exactly do we mean by poetry? Poetry is originally meant to be recited, e.g. in connection with the New Years feast or at other religious occasions. While Genesis 1 may not appear to be poetry because it wasn't written to be used in that way, nothing prevents it from being constructed and not necessarily meant as literal history.


- FreezBee

 

[HypnoToad]

Not really to interfer with your little discussion, but while Genesis 1 isn't typical of Hebrew poetry - compare e.g. to the creation stories in Psalm 8 and Job 38 - the question is what we mean by poetry?

I checked with your first link, and the title of that page is "Is Genesis Poetry or Historic Narrative?".

The tricky bit here is that accepting Genesis as "historic narrative" in style implies nothing but that it follows a specific style, not that it is necessarily meant to be taken literally.

The question is, what exactly do we mean by poetry? Poetry is originally meant to be recited, e.g. in connection with the New Years feast or at other religious occasions. While Genesis 1 may not appear to be poetry because it wasn't written to be used in that way, nothing prevents it from being constructed and not necessarily meant as literal history.


- FreezBee

I'm not talking about whether the account is literal or figurative, but whether it's poetry or prose. I'm talking structure, not substance.

 

[stone]

1 says God made heavens and earth then
2 says the world was empty.

could this mean God created a universe but was destroyed when God threw lucifer down with the angels and then He built it all over again in 7 days?

I take it as literal, there may be some things left out, but that is because we are on the earth, the blanks will be filled in later.

As far as Satan goes, he was thrown to the earth by father after tempting Eve, and from what i understand angels chose to go to the earth to be with the daughters of man. They bred, which was the reason for the flood and now we are left with demonic spirits roaming the earth, right?

There is no war in heaven, heaven is heaven. The war is here on earth. Y-shua did say that satan is the prince of the earth.

 

[justified]

"Everyone" but Kaiser says it's poetry??

Kaiser is a noted scholar, currently the president of GCTS. I appreciate and have read his work. But he is in a significant minority in terms of published scholars. Perhaps if you wish to be over-literal, I should phrase my statement: "in terms of those scholars who are both published and legitimate, nearly all agree that Genesis 1 is a type of poetry."

I did a Yahoo search on the phrase "genesis poetry". The very first two links are these:
http://www.ldolphin.org/genmyth.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c022.html
- people who are NOT Kaiser who argue it isn't poetry.

So, your statement is either uninformed or a deception. Either way isn't great support for your view.

Stay off the ad hominem for now, bud.

In terms of the first link, the main argument boils down to syntax, ie, word-order. Let's examine some poetry, then:

Exodus 15 is some of the oldest poetry in the Bible. Verse 2bcd (verse 2a is a nominal sentence and lacks a verb) reads:

ויהי-לי לשועה "and he shall be my salvation"
זה אלי ואנוהו "this is my God and I will praise him"
אלהי אבי וארממנהו "God of my father, and I will exalt him"

The first sentence begins with a verb, the other two end. The other two are also parallel, as 2a is with 2b.

The point is simply this: syntax is adaptable in poetry for whatever point it has. Also, poetry over different time periods (and the source of the poetry) affect its realisation.

Psalm 82 (one of my favourite psalms for various reasons) similarly lacks the cohesiveness of word order suggested in the article you posted. See verse 8, "rise up, O God, judge the earth!"

Jonah 2:3-10 is a psalm (or has some kind of literary interdependence with a few Psalms [e.g. 88]) nestled into the story of Jonah. The first line reads "I called out from my distress unto the LORD, and he answered me"

The next line reads "from the depths of she'ol I cried out, and you heard my voice"

Notice how the second line is different -- the difference is that the two verbs are placed next to each other. This is how Hebrew poetry works in terms of parallelism. In the second sentence, the verb is placed next to the first sentence's in order for continuity to occur. It's quite nice when you get used to it.

I have neglected a few points from that article, but you can see from the Hebrew above that the wav-consecutive is used in poetry.

Besides, my arguments for the poetic nature of Genesis 1:1-2:4a are based more on formal, source and rhythmic criteria than Hebrew syntax -- something which is not very well understood as it is!

 

[HypnoToad]

Stay off the ad hominem for now, bud.

There is no "ad hominem". I addressed your statement - it was incorrect. There are only two possibilites:
1. Incorrect because you didn't have the correct information (you are uninformed).
2. Incorrect because you intentionally withheld the correct information (deceptive).

I did not suggest one over the other.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

1 says God made heavens and earth then
2 says the world was empty.

could this mean God created a universe but was destroyed when God threw lucifer down with the angels and then He built it all over again in 7 days?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God [plural] created [from nothing..John 1:3] the heavens and the earth.

Who got to witness God doing this.... Job 38:7

Gen 1:2 and the earth was without form and void[Isa 45:18], and darkness[judgement] was upon the face of the deep[first flood]. and the Spirit of God[ps 29:10,ekekiel 28:18 annoited states that the H.S. was upon him to guide lucifer] moved upon the face of the waters[2 peter 3:5-6 two floods].

if you know a little greek this really jumps out about 2 floods

 

[justified]

if you know a little greek this really jumps out about 2 floods

Not really, since every passage you just cited is in Hebrew except John 1:3 and II Peter 3.

God plural

About 80% of the times the root 'l is used of Yahweh, it is the form אלהים, the plural of אל; the first word is a plural intensification since it is always used with a singular verb ברא here: Qal-stem, perfective, 3ms. Noting that the word is plural is worthless in this instance. But what would have been interesting to note is that God says "let us" in Gen. 1:26 and 11:7.

[from nothing..John 1:3]

This is not true -- John 1:3 simply says that everything was made by ο λογος, not that everything was created from nothing.

Isa 45:18]

I'm not sure what you intend to imply by this.

judgement

Apparently you just made this up.

first flood

I'm waiting for you to defend this.

ps 29:10,ekekiel 28:18 annoited states that the H.S. was upon him to guide lucifer

Knowing a little Canaanite mythology goes a long way, too. Ps. 29:10 "The LORD sits enthroned over the flood" has absolutely nothing to do with hovering as here -- it has to do with chaoskampf. Knowing a little German is also a good thing. Ezek. 28:18 reads this: By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. In the first place, this has nothing to do with Satan-- it's about Tyre if you read the context -- and second, it says nothing about the Holy Spirit. It sounds like you've been reading the notes in a Dake's Study Bible.

2 peter 3:5-6 two floods

Are you commenting on the idea of "waters" as opposed to "water"? The word in Hebrew is always a dual, like "heavens" instead of "heaven." II Peter simply makes the point that its the same waters from which God created the world (see my post above) that destroyed the world -- though the author is much more concerned about warning believers rather than making a statement about the flood.

Yes, knowing a little language does go a long way. But I'm not sure you know any of them. (speaking of ad hominem)

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God [plural] created [from nothing..John 1:3] the heavens and the earth.

Who got to witness God doing this.... Job 38:7

Gen 1:2 and the earth was without form and void[Isa 45:18], and darkness[judgement] was upon the face of the deep[first flood]. and the Spirit of God[ps 29:10,ekekiel 28:18 annoited states that the H.S. was upon him to guide lucifer] moved upon the face of the waters[2 peter 3:5-6 two floods].

if you know a little greek this really jumps out about 2 floods

two floods ...water of the deep over earth...

why a judgement ....
In ezekiel 28:13 describes the garden of eden as a rock garden

vs 14 states that King of Tyrus an annoited cherub set up on the holy mountain of God..mountain refer to the government of God going down hill ...God to lucifer

vs 15 lucifer was perfect till inquity was found in him

vs 18 Thous hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitudes of thy iniquities

states in v18 that a fire will come from the midst of thee and devour thee in the sight of all them that behold thee... future judgement..rev 20:14-15

the flood was to incarsonate Satan for awhile till God descided to bring man upon earth

In 2 peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant[vs 7 day of judgement] of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the #1earth standing out of water and #2 thru the water.. 6 where by the world that then was, being overflowed with water perished

In gen 2 it states that the earth is void...

did god create the earth to be void?
Isa 45:18 brings this to light..

isa 45:18 For thus said the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created not in vain, he formed to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

not in vain can be described not empty and without/void

Gen 9::11-12 covenant of no more floods