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No a living person was able to verify the NDE of another person having a NDE ie they saw the deceased person having a NDE standing in front of them. They gave them some information which the person told to another which was information they could not have possibly known which verified the case.The dead person was able to verify they appeared in front of the person who had the NDE? That certainly is astounding.
Thats like assuming all men are losers because you thought the first 3 you met were losers. Its one of the biggest logical fallacies there is. That a fact about the entire group can be concluded by a handful of examples among 10s of 1,000s according to your liking or not.If the ones that have been presented are examples of the best...then yes. I am.
If you put up three of what you consider to be the best and they come up short, then I'm not going to waste my time time checking umpteen other examples that you thought were not as good.Thats like assuming all men are losers because you thought the first 3 you met were losers.
This is blantantly untrue. The example has not been refuted. I presented several lines of evdience supporting the case and no one has refuted this with any likewise evidence. No one has shown the doctors were lying, no one has shown the patient was lying, no one has shown the patient opened their eyes or was even conscious during the entire event and no one has shown that anyone colluded to make this story up.
To the contrary I have shown the patients eyes were closed the entire time while in the OR room so could not have physically seen the things he described with his physical eyes. I have shown that two independent witnesses verified the description the patient gave. I have also presented an independent review which supports the case. Two completely different levels of evidence where the skeptics have absolutely nothing but heresay and gossip.
I mean you and the skeptics have not interviewed those involved, have not been to the location of the event, have not interviewed anyone involved, have not presented any review of the case showing any arguement or evidence against and somehow you can claim with confidence the case is false.
So therefore until someone provides evidence against this case it stands as a verified NDE.
These words " no credible, easily refuted and poor examples where is your evidence. It would have to be good because to easily refute the case you will need good evidence. For example you will need to show the patient opened their eyes or that the doctors are lying.
But you havn't done that.
But my example has not fallen short. It has independent evidence that it happened just as the patient described. You keep saying I have failed or come short but you still are not showing any evdience for that being the case.If you put up three of what you consider to be the best and they come up short, then I'm not going to waste my time time checking umpteen other examples that you thought were not as good.
You can provide counter evidence against the evidence presented in this case. Thats how it goes. One side presents evidence and the other counters that evdience with better evidence disputing the case. Neither skpetics or yourself have not shown this. If you basing your evidence on arguements like on Skeptico then that is not evdience but heresay and gossip.And they can't 'not be proved.' You can't prove a negative in these cases.
Yes I have. I presented that evdience and you havn't shown it to be wrong with likewise evidence. Its like the case against Harvey Wienstein. Witnesses gave their testimony and evdience was shown that the events happened as the victim claimed. Independent witnesses corroberated the victims testimony.It's up to you to prove they did happen as claimed. You haven't done that.
If you going on probability what is more likely, a patient being comotosed opening their eyes or not able to open their eyes. What is the more likley that taped was used most of the time (not sometimes) that his eyes were taped. Your elevating 'sometimes' as being more likely over 'most of the times'. That seems obviously wrong. That the doctors are the type to lie and make up this whole thing or they are telling the truth. You have not shown anything that remotely sugests the doctors are lying or made stuff up.So we are left with deciding what is more likely. What is more probable. And some guy's wife repeating to him what she had been told is monstrously more likely than he went floating around the op room.
Failed according to who, you. I don't think so. Its usually a sign that a person has nothing and are defeated when they keep trying to cl;osed down debate and ignore dealing with the actual evidence.Case closed. Younhad your opportunity. You failed to take it.
Yes good point. I mentioned this earlier that even if the evidence was strong and obvious some will still deny it because fundementally they don't believe in such things. This is a stronger form of atheism along the lines of materialism. It not only denies God or gods but denies anything non naturalistic.It's clear (at least to me) that this is a heart issue, not an evidence issue.
No one has shown the doctors were lying,
no one has shown the patient was lying
no one has shown the patient opened their eyes
or was even conscious during the entire event
no one has shown that anyone colluded to make this story up.
To the contrary I have shown the patients eyes were closed the entire time
I have shown that two independent witnesses verified the description the patient gave.
I have also presented an independent review which supports the case.
I mean you and the skeptics have not interviewed those involved, have not been to the location of the event, have not interviewed anyone involved, have not presented any review of the case showing any arguement or evidence against
It would have to be good because to easily refute the case you will need good evidence.
No-one has suggested that at all. At any time. See how things that aren't true become accepted as being true when it fits what you want to believe?That somehow everyone colluded to make this all up...
No-one has suggested that at all. At any time. See how things that aren't true become accepted as being true when it fits what you want to believe?
Thinking rationally is a form of arrogance?It has everything to do with elevating your own ability to think rationally, which is a form of arrogance.
Then you have not been reading your sides objections. Your side suggested that someone could have told the patient what happened which would then require everyone to go along.Let's review your objections, shall we.
No one claimed that the doctors were lying. So you're 0 for 1.
Once again your side said the patient could have been told the events by someone else and created the whole thing. Thats another way of saying the patient is engaging in misrepresentations and falsehoods.No one claimed that the patient was lying . So you're 0 for 2.
Wait a minute you just said no one has accused the patient of lying and now you want to use possible evidence that the patient may have lied. You just cancelled out your own logic for making a case. You also are taking a one sided view. Your quite happy to give the skeptics a point for there being no evidence that he did not lie. But your unwilling to give a point for the fact that no one has also showed he was lying. At the very least these cancel each other out.And no one has shown that he didn't. So you're 0 for 3.
Once again your showing bias. Your quite willing to use testimony that there was heart activity which doesn't mean consciousness as the heart can still beat when unconscious. But you are ignoring Dr Rudys testimony that the patient did not wake during the entire event because he was so compromised that he didn't wake for 2 days.Unfortunately, we have no data concerning brain activity. However we do have testimony affirming cardiac activity and blood pressure. Both indicative of a potentially conscious patient. So you're 0 for 4.
Once again your side, the skeptics claimed that someone must have told the patient. I think wife, nurse and doctors were implied. So yes thats inferring some collusion between a number of people. So before I lose count that would be 4 in favour of the case and 0 to the skeptics.No one claimed that they did. So you're 0 for 5.
So you are calling Dr Rudy a liar then. If you have no evidence then I am afraid thats another mute point.No you didn't, that's just patently false. So you're 0 for 6.
So if your admitting that you don't question the testimonies of the 2 doctors then it stands to reason logically you accept their testimony as true and correct as evidence. They both said the patient was not awake as he was comotosed and that what the patient had told them is correct according to what happened in the OR.And I never questioned that. So you're 0 for 7.
Not sure I posted it to you. Quick search. Yep I linked it to you in post #516. It concludesI can't find where you provided any such independent review. So unless you can provide one you're 0 for 8.
Actually as with the above post I have. The independent review did interviews and investigated the case. I am using this evidence. But the skeptics have nothing of the sort. I have given up counting as I think I have already defeated any skeptical claims.And neither have you. So you're 0 for 9.
Except the professional disagnosis of the patient was that he was completely comotosed during the entire time. This is backed up by the fact that he was so far gone he did not wake for 2 days. No one can become clearly and vividly awake to recall such trivial details. ITs scientifically impossible.My argument is based on two very simple facts. One, during surgery anesthesia must be continuously redosed, which it wasn't. Therefore it's quite likely that the patient was regaining consciousness.
No the procedure was not completed. His chest was still open so they still had to sew him up for autopsy. As Cattaneo said the tape is removed before the patient goes to the ICU. If someone has died there is no completion to be done at that stage. In fact as the eyes can open after death its more likely the tape remained in place. Its only taken off if the patient is alive and going to the ward obviously.And two, it's standard procedure for the anesthesiologist to remove the tape from the patient's eyes when the procedure is completed. The procedure was without a doubt completed. So my only assumption is that the anesthesiologist actually did their job.
Are you kidding. What about the fact they both said there is no way the patient could have been awake or conscious.I'm not questioning the doctors' testimony, nor the patient's testimony, in fact I'm basing my entire argument on them. Nothing any of them said refutes my position.
But I am not advocating for magic. Just an unusual event and experience during dying to be taking as really happening. That doesn't mean its magic. There could be a natural explanation. So the evdience only needs to show that the event itself happened as it did thats all. I think this has clearly been established.And as for who needs the greater evidence, it's the one who's advocating for magic... which would be you.
Lol cut off again gee. When the going gets tuff. Not even a draw which I think is being generous to the skeptics arguements considering I knocked most of them down or at least undermined their strength.So based solely on the evidence, you're 0 for 10.
Good luck next time... except there's not going to be a next time, this was your one and only chance.
OK I thought you said the most likely answer was that someone told the patient, I think you said the nurse or the wife or doctor from memory. Like there were stories going around the hospital and it turned into some supernatural event.No-one has suggested that at all. At any time. See how things that aren't true become accepted as being true when it fits what you want to believe?
Yeah, someone told him exactly what happened. Why wouldn't they? He'd be the talk of the hospital. Their first Lazarus experience. They would have told his wife. She would have told him. There isn't any conceivable way that he wouldn't have known. If you'd have tried to convince me that nobody had said anything to him I wouldn't have believed you. It would be a nonsensical proposition.OK I thought you said the most likely answer was that someone told the patient, I think you said the nurse or the wife or doctor from memory. Like there were stories going around the hospital and it turned into some supernatural event.
Actually in checking back on your post I wanted to question something. Here you said in post #511.No-one has suggested that at all. At any time. See how things that aren't true become accepted as being true when it fits what you want to believe?
Oh well it looks like I answered that question as you were writing yours so was already on to it. Now you need to answer the question in the other post. How did everyone else know before the patient told of the trivial details of his experience. How did they know what the patient was going to say before he said it. How could someone come up with such minor detail as seeing post it notes. In fact how did they even know he was going to talk of a NDE.Yeah, someone told him exactly what happened. Why wouldn't they? He'd be the talk of the hospital. Their first Lazarus experience. They would have told his wife. She would have told him. There isn't any conceivable way that he wouldn't have known. If you'd have tried to convince me that nobody had said anything to him I wouldn't have believed you. It would be a nonsensical proposition.
And he believed he had seen it himself. It's an extremely common occurrence. I gave you a personal example. They are legion.
And I keep saying this , but I asked your for the most convincing example you had. And it fails. Dismally.
Thinking rationally is a form of arrogance?
You are so familiar with this event. But you still keep getting details wrong. Nobody at any time confirmed that the doctors were the first to hear about what the patients experiences were. Nobody at any time said they saw the patient before his wife. She was only mentioned once when they said they told her they thought he had died.The doctors were the first to hear of the news of the patients experiences from the patient. They seen the patient before the wife. If the doctors were not the first to hear about the patients experiences then how did anyone else work out the trivial details of what the patient experienced beforehand to tell the patient.
I'm more rational than others. Well, thanks.No, that is not what I said. It is elevating your ability to be rational above others that I have a problem with.
I'm more rational than others. Well, thanks.
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