Genealogies

[FirenWater]

1Tim 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

a genealogy is a record of descent or lineage



So genealogies are a record of decent or lineage would be being counted or reckoned after the flesh wouldnt it?



Pauls speaks of his flesh (and confidence he could of had in it) which was probrobly more then most... "I the more"


Phil 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;


Which things he counted as loss for Christ, and he also said...


Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


But likewise says...


2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.


Whereas likewise he says...


Romans 9:3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:


Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Genealogies...why do the apostles say not to give heed to them now?

 

[C R F]

1Tim 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

a genealogy is a record of descent or lineage



So genealogies are a record of decent or lineage would be being counted or reckoned after the flesh wouldnt it?



Pauls speaks of his flesh (and confidence he could of had in it) which was probrobly more then most... "I the more"


Phil 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;


Which things he counted as loss for Christ, and he also said...


Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


But likewise says...


2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.


Whereas likewise he says...


Romans 9:3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:


Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Genealogies...why do the apostles say not to give heed to them now?

Fireinwater, these things are saying follow the Spirit, not the stories. I'm always trying to show people everything in the bible has spiritual meanings. Timithy even calls them fables. This is not saying there never was a Moses or David or any of the people in the bible. The events that happened were recorded but translated into spiritual language or better said written in a tongue that only people with eyes to see could understand. This is why Jesus always spoke in parables and and you can see the word was made flesh and he was the word and is the word. Like this, Moses seperated the word from the two understandings. Teachings fall like rain from above and flow so they are interpreted as water. So Moses parted the water. divided the spoils is another way of saying it too under different situations. The word is law for sinners by case examples. But the word is more then just law, it has spiritual truth hidden in there. This is the seeking the higher righteousness, seeking the kingdom of God. The world knows Jesus after the flesh but when you see the Spirit you get new understanding. Then you know the Father. Paul says he was a Hebrew of Hebrews after the law. Well the hebrews are the ones not baptized in the Holy Spirit and the Law is of the flesh. Things literal and as seen by people in carnal understanding, thats the flesh.

So now , as the apostles say and I too say, do not give heed to those things anymore. Look at what the spirit is saying. Everything has spiritual meanings and that is the stream of living waters Jesus spoke about. Things by faith, not as this world has faith, faith that comes from having ears to hear what the spirit says.

Interpretation is used for the edifying of the church. It is a gift of the Spirit. I thank God that he has given me this gift and others but the gifts of the Spirit are available to all that turn away from what the see and seek what they do not see.

Your tread are put together so well, again I thank you.

 

[FirenWater]

Hi there CRF God richly bless you!

It does say we look AT the things NOT SEEN as opposed to the things seen, and that the world cannot recieve Him for the very reason that it SEETH HIM NOT (as well) but Jesus said (in contex of the same) but YE SEE ME. I always thought that was so kool! Talk about the day dawning... At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Genealogies were carefully recorded however, I am encouraged by the apostles saying avoid them (and honestly I havent the slightest inclination towards them ). I wonder if it can be lumped into minding the flesh in that way, given a lineage or genealogie minds the flesh (in the same way). Evn Paul speaks of his flesh (stock) and tribe. Though he does say that they once have known Christ in that way, in fact speaks of a Christ and according to the flesh he came, but changes it to know we him no more (henceforth) after the flesh (or any man for that manner).

Then ofcourse he speaks of children of the flesh and promise and which is counted for seed etc. And I was curious as to how others understood what the apostles meant by avoiding genealogies. Because I try to compare spiritual with spiritual, but had to ask, "would genealogies (after the flesh) be regarded as spiritual? I would think not of we are told to not give heed to them. Though both are used in contrast such as Ishmeal (born the ordinary way the seed of Abraham after the flesh) and Isaac (born of promise, signifying the one born of the Spirit) allegorically expounded upon in the context of two women and two covenants.

You have to forgive me, Im rather dry right now (love these seasons!) and during these times I never put anything I am thinking about rightly. Its a time I should be quiet but I never learn

Thank you for your reply!

Peace to you!

 

[Rheard22]

What I take from this two verses is that we as fellow believers separate fact from fictional in terms of the spiritual nature putting away matters of no importance.

 

[FirenWater]

Short and sweet, thank you Rheard 22, God bless you!

 

[dcyates]

1Tim 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

a genealogy is a record of descent or lineage

So genealogies are a record of decent or lineage would be being counted or reckoned after the flesh wouldnt it?

....................................

Given that Paul's letters were largely situational, our reading of them is a lot like listening to only one side of a telephone conversation; we take what we can hear and from that we're often able to accurately determine what the discussion is about and why the person we can hear is saying the things they're saying. However, there are certain instances when hearing only one side of the conversation simply isn't enough and we just don't have sufficient information to properly understand specific terms or aspects of the discussion that are expressed.
I humbly submit that this is one of those instances. Obviously Paul is addressing a situation where Timothy was to instruct certain false teachers against their promulgating their "strange doctrines," which at least partially consisted of "myths and endless genealogies." We know from other Jewish literature of the time that some writers took liberties with the Old Testament text and added to it stories of their own. Examples like these might be what Paul here has in mind. As well, others would try to lend weight and added authority to their own teachings by claiming certain biblical heroes as their ancestors. Again, this might be what Paul is dealing with both here and in Titus.
Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is we simply cannot say with any appreciable certainty exactly what it is that Paul is referring to in these texts. One thing we can be more certain of is that Paul is not thereby condemning the legitimacy of one's genealogy altogether. For instance, Jesus' own genealogy was of vital importance concerning his status as the Messiah, since God's "Anointed one" had to be of the kingly line of David.

 

[dcyates]

Fireinwater, these things are saying follow the Spirit, not the stories. I'm always trying to show people everything in the bible has spiritual meanings. Timithy even calls them fables. This is not saying there never was a Moses or David or any of the people in the bible. The events that happened were recorded but translated into spiritual language or better said written in a tongue that only people with eyes to see could understand. This is why Jesus always spoke in parables and and you can see the word was made flesh and he was the word and is the word. Like this, Moses seperated the word from the two understandings. Teachings fall like rain from above and flow so they are interpreted as water. So Moses parted the water. divided the spoils is another way of saying it too under different situations. The word is law for sinners by case examples. But the word is more then just law, it has spiritual truth hidden in there. This is the seeking the higher righteousness, seeking the kingdom of God. The world knows Jesus after the flesh but when you see the Spirit you get new understanding. Then you know the Father. Paul says he was a Hebrew of Hebrews after the law. Well the hebrews are the ones not baptized in the Holy Spirit and the Law is of the flesh. Things literal and as seen by people in carnal understanding, thats the flesh.

So now , as the apostles say and I too say, do not give heed to those things anymore. Look at what the spirit is saying. Everything has spiritual meanings and that is the stream of living waters Jesus spoke about. Things by faith, not as this world has faith, faith that comes from having ears to hear what the spirit says.

Interpretation is used for the edifying of the church. It is a gift of the Spirit. I thank God that he has given me this gift and others but the gifts of the Spirit are available to all that turn away from what the see and seek what they do not see.

Your tread are put together so well, again I thank you.

CRF, I sincerely don't want to come across as overly harsh, but if I'm understanding you correctly, I feel compelled to warn you that it appears that you're flirting dangerously close with a form of Gnosticism here.

 

[C R F]

CRF, I sincerely don't want to come across as overly harsh, but if I'm understanding you correctly, I feel compelled to warn you that it appears that you're flirting dangerously close with a form of Gnosticism here.

I appreciate your sincerity. Jesus said to his disciple, to you it is given to know the secrets of the Kingdom but to others it has not. Jesus said let him that has ears hear. Jesus said if any man hear my voice I will come in and sup with him. Jesus said till now I have been speaking figurativly speaking but now I speak plainly to you. So now I say, I am a disciple of Jesus, I do have ears to hear, he does sup with me and I understand what the things mean like many waters comming out of his mouth. because of these things I've been converted and I am a christian. But thank you for your concern.

 

[theWaris1]

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

I think this means we shouldn't argue over these things and waste so much time on them.

 

[FirenWater]

Given that Paul's letters were largely situational, our reading of them is a lot like listening to only one side of a telephone conversation; we take what we can hear and from that we're often able to accurately determine what the discussion is about and why the person we can hear is saying the things they're saying. However, there are certain instances when hearing only one side of the conversation simply isn't enough and we just don't have sufficient information to properly understand specific terms or aspects of the discussion that are expressed.
I humbly submit that this is one of those instances. Obviously Paul is addressing a situation where Timothy was to instruct certain false teachers against their promulgating their "strange doctrines," which at least partially consisted of "myths and endless genealogies." We know from other Jewish literature of the time that some writers took liberties with the Old Testament text and added to it stories of their own. Examples like these might be what Paul here has in mind. As well, others would try to lend weight and added authority to their own teachings by claiming certain biblical heroes as their ancestors. Again, this might be what Paul is dealing with both here and in Titus.
Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is we simply cannot say with any appreciable certainty exactly what it is that Paul is referring to in these texts. One thing we can be more certain of is that Paul is not thereby condemning the legitimacy of one's genealogy altogether. For instance, Jesus' own genealogy was of vital importance concerning his status as the Messiah, since God's "Anointed one" had to be of the kingly line of David.

Thanks for your reply dcyates (hello again as well). Yeah Im trying to catch some of the things he is speaking to by comparing (here and there) even if outside of his letters watching how he might refer to something (to catch a pattern in his speaking). Im still in study mode on this one.

Im trying to compare to see who is who and to what (or who) he is referring to (keeping in mind his own confidence he could have in the flesh (if in fact he put any confidence in it). The Cretians (also) are throwing me off here as I examine the surrounding context to come to a better understanding.

For example of gainsaying people Paul quotes the Lord in respects to Israel


Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Likewise to convince gainsayers (here) by sound doctrine


Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.


The next verse (still keeping in mind my first post and how he words things and of whom he is speaking) here (as he continues) the many vain talkers (specially they of the circumcision)


Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:


BUT here (as if in the same breath it seems) he continues two verses down, and the Cretians are brought into his context



Titus 1:12 One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.


I know Cretians = of Crete= "fleshy"... (spiritually speaking?)


Who are the Cretians? (because he continues his words concerning "they of the circumcision" then speaks of a prophet of their own (stating of the circumcision) being that of the Cretains?? I suppose I was (at the first) under the impression that Cretians were of the Gentiles? Do I stand corrected in that thought? Because I cant see the Gentiles being referred to as the circumcision, and the Cretians appear in the context of the circumcision. Thats where this ones getting me I suppose.


Then two verses down from there he now brings in Jewish fables (in addition??) or is this of His previous words ?? Im in headbanger mode lol


Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth


Which is similar to the wording here as well (in the context of teachers after their lusts)


2Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


And again here...


1Tim 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


2Tim 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.


Wow.. I never quite looked at that, something (of unlearned questions) which "genders" (in a spiritual sense) a bad spiritual disposition towards strifes (its manifestion)...I mean I saw it but I didn't see it (lol) One of those moments lol


Obviously these things (in this case) "gender" strifes ( the manifestation of) the former (if not avoided)

1) of men who fathered children a) to be born b) to be begotten 1) of women giving birth to children2) metaph.a) to engender, cause to arise, excite b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone (etc)

Ok, the last one is off topic a bit but brought to mind whats in the heart "if you have bitter envy and strife in your heart (lie not against the truth). Which sorta reminds me of that verse in the OT in a way, "Woe is me that thou hast borne me a man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth!"


Not to mention that which is earthly sensual and devilish (or of what is below) sometimes seeing things out of context in one place helps you find something else that can help you in another thing in a whole other context (I often find anyway)

Still looking at this though, I cant say yet, and I gotta head out shortly.

The Cretains in the one context is throwing me off though (in relation to the circumcision) however outside its context and looking at the name (and what it means) is kind of kool.

Do you have anything further on the Cretains that could help me out here?

I'd be interested, maybe it would help kick me up over the curb here

God bless you

 

[FirenWater]

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

I think this means we shouldn't argue over these things and waste so much time on them.

Thanks theWaris1, I agree as well, you can see the fruit of doing that just about everywheres these days. On one hand as dcyates points out they are included (to a point) then suddenly not so, and then sorta appear as they do. I mean look at the genealogy of Joseph (included) and was looking at this very thing on another thread (altogther) ... And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph. He wasnt born of Joseph that way anyway. But speaks of the Lord who sprang from Juda of which Moses spake nothing of the preisthood and all of that. So its adressed to a point (Christ according to the flesh) by which they knew him, but really he wasnt know after (or by the flesh) which some speak of after decent or lineage (after a carnal truth, in their way) and Paul who did not know Jesus (in the flesh) speaks of how they knew him after the flesh (but henceforth) know we him no more (nor any man after the flesh). Thusly speaking elsewhere if any man have not the Spirit he is none of His (which was shed upon both Jew and Gentile) and by which (those who have the same) are to be known by the same.

And ofcourse we can go on endlessly into the genealogies, I mean (afterall) the apostle calls them endless and are told to avoid them (now). Seemed to be a problem, so that Paul put forth the confidence he could have in the flesh (which was "something else" apparently, in stock and tribe) so if you would count him as something after the flesh... be ye impressed! Because I have MORE then anyone to have such confidence (and inpress you all) IF I would "go there"

And ofcourse tosses it in the dung pile

Though I get the questions as presented elsewhere in scripture, though I dont ever see an agreement on much. So I usully dont go there myself. I'm trying to take another route, but without much luck yet

Thanks for replying, God bless you

 

[dcyates]

I appreciate your sincerity. Jesus said to his disciple, to you it is given to know the secrets of the Kingdom but to others it has not. Jesus said let him that has ears hear. Jesus said if any man hear my voice I will come in and sup with him. Jesus said till now I have been speaking figurativly speaking but now I speak plainly to you. So now I say, I am a disciple of Jesus, I do have ears to hear, he does sup with me and I understand what the things mean like many waters comming out of his mouth. because of these things I've been converted and I am a christian. But thank you for your concern.

Alright, fair enough. So, could you please tell me what the meaning of a text like this is?
ἀλλα ἐὰν πεινᾷ ὁ ἐχθρός σου, ψώμιζε αὐτόν· ἐὰν διμᾷ, πότιζε αὐτόν τοῦτο γὰρ ποιῶν ἄνθρακας πυρὸς σωρεύσεις ἐπιτὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ.

 

[C R F]

Alright, fair enough. So, could you please tell me what the meaning of a text like this is?
ἀλλα ἐὰν πεινᾷ ὁ ἐχθρός σου, ψώμιζε αὐτόν· ἐὰν διμᾷ, πότιζε αὐτόν τοῦτο γὰρ ποιῶν ἄνθρακας πυρὸς σωρεύσεις ἐπιτὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ.

Nope, haven't got a clue.

 

[C R F]

Alright, fair enough. So, could you please tell me what the meaning of a text like this is?
ἀλλα ἐὰν πεινᾷ ὁ ἐχθρός σου, ψώμιζε αὐτόν· ἐὰν διμᾷ, πότιζε αὐτόν τοῦτο γὰρ ποιῶν ἄνθρακας πυρὸς σωρεύσεις ἐπιτὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ.

But , in the beginning, God created heaven and earth, I can tell you what that means, and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all, I can tell you what that means and everything in between those line, I can tell you what it means.

 

[Kirkwhisper]

'Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies...'?

Extra-biblical genealogies, not the biblical ones.

 

[FirenWater]

Here they are mentioned along with the law

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Paul speaks of His fleshly lineage mentioned in the law (circumcised the 8th day, of the stock of Israel of the tribe of Benjamin) which he counted as dung (in repects to having such confidence in the flesh).

He also goes on to speak of the children of the flesh are not counted for seed. However uses the children of Abraham to reckon the same thought rather simply between the one born the ordinary way and the other of the promise. Abraham was to offer his ONLY son Isaac (at the time Ishmeal was, as he was first) but is left unaknowledged, or as not counted (even there) by The LORD.

Not to mention he speaks of the seed (singular) not seeds (as of many) the seed which is Christ. IF you are Christs, THEN are you Abrahams seed (according to the promise). Which pertains to the Spirit (not to the flesh) because if we have not the Spirit of God (then) are we considered none of His.

But he does seem to lump those genealogies in with the strivings about the law. And does speak of those who want to be teachers of the law (and them which glory and have confidence in the flesh) after a particular manner of the law. Not knowing what they appear to confidently confirm. Paul adreses his confidence, expressively speaking if his flesh, tribe and stock (which the law likewise contains).

 

[Kirkwhisper]

Here they are mentioned along with the law

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Paul speaks of His fleshly lineage mentioned in the law (circumcised the 8th day, of the stock of Israel of the tribe of Benjamin) which he counted as dung (in repects to having such confidence in the flesh).

He also goes on to speak of the children of the flesh are not counted for seed. However uses the children of Abraham to reckon the same thought rather simply between the one born the ordinary way and the other of the promise. Abraham was to offer his ONLY son Isaac (at the time Ishmeal was, as he was first) but is left unaknowledged, or as not counted (even there) by The LORD.

Not to mention he speaks of the seed (singular) not seeds (as of many) the seed which is Christ. IF you are Christs, THEN are you Abrahams seed (according to the promise). Which pertains to the Spirit (not to the flesh) because if we have not the Spirit of God (then) are we considered none of His.

But he does seem to lump those genealogies in with the strivings about the law. And does speak of those who want to be teachers of the law (and them which glory and have confidence in the flesh) after a particular manner of the law. Not knowing what they appear to confidently confirm. Paul adreses his confidence, expressively speaking if his flesh, tribe and stock (which the law likewise contains).

FOOLISH questions about them, not intelligent inquires.

The chronologies were given to (1) give us a general idea as to the age of mankind, and to (2) establish the heredity of Jesus Christ as heir to the throne of David. So if they are attacked or placed in question they must be defended.

It is FOOLISH questions that are forbidden: Example: Is King Arthur in the family line of Jesus?

 

[FirenWater]

Our Lord sprang out of Juda right?

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Of what decent is Melchisedec then?

 

[theWaris1]

Our Lord sprang out of Juda right?

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Of what decent is Melchisedec then?

Jesus was adopted by Joseph who was of the Pharez side of Judah.
There is a rule that adoption could apply to a King.
His Moms sister Elizabeth was said to be of the Levittes in Luke 1:5

So Jesus was a Levitte through Mary's Father.
Adopted into the line of David.

Melchisedek had to be a Levitte to be a high priest in early Jerusalem, or Salem.

 

[FirenWater]

Jesus was adopted by Joseph who was of the Pharez side of Judah.
There is a rule that adoption could apply to a King.
His Moms sister Elizabeth was said to be of the Levittes in Luke 1:5

So Jesus was a Levitte through Mary's Father.
Adopted into the line of David.

Melchisedek had to be a Levitte to be a high priest in early Jerusalem, or Salem.

Melchisedek was before the law if we are just looking at Him, no doubt (according to the flesh) we can count him as coming as we do. Prior to the Law we can catch Him in the similitude of Melchisedec. The law coming after in respects to the Levitical priesthood

Heb 7:9 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

It speaks of His descent, without one after the figure which precedes the receiving of the law though.