Gender-corrective surgery on infants

[cantata]

In the US (and possibly in the UK, I don't know), if a baby is born with a phallus that is considered "too long" to be a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] but "too short" to be a penis, quite frequently surgery is recommended to parents to "correct" the "deformity", i.e. cut off the "overlong" "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]", and hey presto, it's a girl. This is usually not medically necessary and almost always leads to further complications when the child is growing. (Sometimes surgery is performed to move the urethra further up the "penis", so in these cases, hey presto, it's a boy.) [source]

Apparently, about 1 in 50 babies is born with some kind of atypical sexual differentiation. That's quite a lot. Is it up to parents and surgeons to decide to "correct" these "deformities"? Is it so important to maintain binary gender expectations that we should perform painful, complicated, and medically unnecessary surgery on newborns?

 

[geekgirlkelli]

In the US (and possibly in the UK, I don't know), if a baby is born with a phallus that is considered "too long" to be a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] but "too short" to be a penis, quite frequently surgery is recommended to parents to "correct" the "deformity", i.e. cut off the "overlong" "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]", and hey presto, it's a girl. This is usually not medically necessary and almost always leads to further complications when the child is growing. (Sometimes surgery is performed to move the urethra further up the "penis", so in these cases, hey presto, it's a boy.) [source]

Apparently, about 1 in 50 babies is born with some kind of atypical sexual differentiation. That's quite a lot. Is it up to parents and surgeons to decide to "correct" these "deformities"? Is it so important to maintain binary gender expectations that we should perform painful, complicated, and medically unnecessary surgery on newborns?

Gender in many cases is completely the opposite as determined by outward appearance. The choice most definitely should be left up to the child later in life.

 

[Sitswithamouse]

I'm with Kelli.
The child should choose their own gender orientation when they get older.

 

[WatersMoon110]

Yes, I don't think it is fair to for anyone but the intersexed child to "pick" what their gender is. I would rather leave a baby as it is, and allow them to choose surgery - if that is what they want - when they are older.

 

[Ryal Kane]

If there's no medical reason for the surgery then I think it's a bad idea.
There's probably more risk of them have social identity problems later in life with the surgery than without it. The social perception needs to change rather than the person.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

In the US (and possibly in the UK, I don't know), if a baby is born with a phallus that is considered "too long" to be a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] but "too short" to be a penis, quite frequently surgery is recommended to parents to "correct" the "deformity", i.e. cut off the "overlong" "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]", and hey presto, it's a girl. This is usually not medically necessary and almost always leads to further complications when the child is growing. (Sometimes surgery is performed to move the urethra further up the "penis", so in these cases, hey presto, it's a boy.) [source]

Apparently, about 1 in 50 babies is born with some kind of atypical sexual differentiation. That's quite a lot. Is it up to parents and surgeons to decide to "correct" these "deformities"? Is it so important to maintain binary gender expectations that we should perform painful, complicated, and medically unnecessary surgery on newborns?

So I guess we're not going to learn anything from the Bruce (David) Reimer case?

Gender is present at conception and can even be determined before birth with amniotic test called an amniocentesis.

Amniocentesis is very accurate in detecting chromosomal abnormalities and the gender of the fetus.

http://www.medicinenet.com/amniocentesis/page2.htm

End of story.

What happens in the brains of people and how they "feel" about their gender is another issue altogether. And of course is something an adult should decide.

Gender "reassignment" is actually impossible as it would entail completely altering the chromosomes of a person. That's more science fiction akin to the island of Doctor Moraeu stuff. Or at best science abomination.

The case where the "man had a baby" was as boguc as it gets, as this "man" was in reality a woman. As female as it gets.

 

[wanderingone]

So I guess we're not going to learn anything from the Bruce (David) Reimer case?

Gender is present at conception and can even be determined before birth with amniotic test called an amniocentesis.



End of story.

What happens in the brains of people and how they "feel" about their gender is another issue altogether. And of course is something an adult should decide.

Gender "reassignment" is actually impossible as it would entail completely altering the chromosomes of a person. That's more science fiction akin to the island of Doctor Moraeu stuff. Or at best science abomination.

The case where the "man had a baby" was as boguc as it gets, as this "man" was in reality a woman. As female as it gets.

The David Reimer basically PROVES that adults who choose to assign a gender based on appearance are screwing up royally. Reimer was mutilated by a circumcision gone bad. The answer? "Just raise him as a girl" so basically all a male is then is a penis.

Reimer is proof that getting busy with plastic surgery is not the solution to "abnormal" genitalia.

 

[wanderingone]

I don't believe it appropriate to ever have "corrective" surgery when that which is viewed as "abnormal" does not prevent the body's systems from functioning. Since infants and children are not going to be involved in sexual activity any time soon there's no reason to run around their genitals with a scalpel trying to make them look "normal"

I think it would be far better for parents and medical providers to spend some time learning what the child's situation actually is rather than try to create genitalia that matches was they assume the child to be.

 

[geekgirlkelli]

I don't believe it appropriate to ever have "corrective" surgery when that which is viewed as "abnormal" does not prevent the body's systems from functioning.

Out of curiosity, how about adults who have corrective surgery?

 

[Polycarp_fan]

The David Reimer basically PROVES that adults who choose to assign a gender based on appearance are screwing up royally. Reimer was mutilated by a circumcision gone bad. The answer? "Just raise him as a girl" so basically all a male is then is a penis.

Reimer's life was ruined by a psychologist that had a theory about gender developement and implemented (or rather manipulated) it on him.

Reimer is proof that getting busy with plastic surgery is not the solution to "abnormal" genitalia.

Reimer was a boy raised as a girl. I don't believe he had any plastic surgery at all.

He ended up commiting suicide.

Utterly tragic.

 

[QuakerOats]

I'm pretty sure I've addressed this before, but I'm absolutely against sex-corrective surgery on children. I believe it's a decision best left to the individual for themselves when they become an adult.

 

[angellica]

In the US (and possibly in the UK, I don't know), if a baby is born with a phallus that is considered "too long" to be a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] but "too short" to be a penis, quite frequently surgery is recommended to parents to "correct" the "deformity", i.e. cut off the "overlong" "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]", and hey presto, it's a girl. This is usually not medically necessary and almost always leads to further complications when the child is growing. (Sometimes surgery is performed to move the urethra further up the "penis", so in these cases, hey presto, it's a boy.) [source]

Apparently, about 1 in 50 babies is born with some kind of atypical sexual differentiation. That's quite a lot. Is it up to parents and surgeons to decide to "correct" these "deformities"? Is it so important to maintain binary gender expectations that we should perform painful, complicated, and medically unnecessary surgery on newborns?

Well, if it was my kid, they would just have to keep what they were born with - a small penis or a large [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. There is no need to alter it when it works, it's just the wrong size. And why risk surgery on a baby? And so what if someone has a smaller than average penis or a larger than average [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]? I didn't know there were size limits! In short, I'd just be glad my baby was healthy.

 

[wanderingone]

Out of curiosity, how about adults who have corrective surgery?

Adults should have whatever is appropriate for their situation. That's between themselves, their doctors and whatever friends or family they choose to include in their decision making.

I think cosmetic correction, when there is no gender identity issue is perfectly reasonable for older children as well, provided they want it and exhibit an ability to understand all procedures involved. When I say gender identity issue I mean the child clearly identifies with the gender they are requesting their appearance match.

I'm merely opposed to surgery on newborns based purely on appearance of external genitalia. If biological gender is truly in question then I would say it would be cruel to take drastic measures simply to make all the adults comfortable. I was under the impression that doctors in the US were no longer in favor of immediate corrective surgery on newborns with various "abnormal" appearing genitalia.

 

[wanderingone]

Reimer's life was ruined by a psychologist that had a theory about gender developement and implemented (or rather manipulated) it on him.



Reimer was a boy raised as a girl. I don't believe he had any plastic surgery at all.

He ended up commiting suicide.

Utterly tragic.

Reimer did have plastic surgery.. his penis was basically burned off by a botched circumcision. He had more than one surgery afterwards, including the removal of his testicles, he had hormone treatment and "counseling" As an adult he then had more surgeries and hormone treatments in an attempt to undo the gender reassignment.

Reimer is an example of having gender forced on him rather than repairing the damage needed to allow him to function (for example urinate). When he did not accept being a "female" he had it forced on him. I imagine he felt as confused and troubled as anyone being forced into a gender role that doesn't match their gender identity.

While his situation is not the same as that which the OP speaks about, he wasn't born with ambiguous genitalia he was the victim of adults deciding he couldn't function without his physical appearance being clearly male or female (even when that appearance was solely his genitals)

 

[geekgirlkelli]

Well, if it was my kid, they would just have to keep what they were born with - a small penis or a large [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. There is no need to alter it when it works, it's just the wrong size. And why risk surgery on a baby? And so what if someone has a smaller than average penis or a larger than average [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]? I didn't know there were size limits! In short, I'd just be glad my baby was healthy.

That's good. Then she/he could get corrective surgery on their own when they were older, if they so desired.

 

[geekgirlkelli]

Adults should have whatever is appropriate for their situation. That's between themselves, their doctors and whatever friends or family they choose to include in their decision making.

I think cosmetic correction, when there is no gender identity issue is perfectly reasonable for older children as well, provided they want it and exhibit an ability to understand all procedures involved. When I say gender identity issue I mean the child clearly identifies with the gender they are requesting their appearance match.

I'm merely opposed to surgery on newborns based purely on appearance of external genitalia. If biological gender is truly in question then I would say it would be cruel to take drastic measures simply to make all the adults comfortable. I was under the impression that doctors in the US were no longer in favor of immediate corrective surgery on newborns with various "abnormal" appearing genitalia.

 

[cantata]

So we mostly agree this is a really bad idea?

Why, then, do you guys think it happens? There must be some parents out there who think it's a good idea.

Do you think these procedures should be illegal?

 

[Rebekka]

Yes, I don't think it is fair to for anyone but the intersexed child to "pick" what their gender is. I would rather leave a baby as it is, and allow them to choose surgery - if that is what they want - when they are older.

I agree.

There are still a lot of taboos. Apparently we cannot accept that there is more than male or female.