gen 1:20

hisgrace26 · Jul 25, 2011

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

is this sky or outer space? can birds fly to outer space? or is it the sky? is the sky outer space? what does this say about the firmament? do modern science agree with genesis? why or why not?

the sun, moon, and stars were the greater/lesser light (gen 1;14). the moon reflects light from the sun and propose no problem. so this is clear. however, a few people said it cannot be the sun, moon, and stars because they are outside in the space, not inside the earth's atmosphere. in gen 1:14 when God made the lights, he placed it inside, not outside.

your thougths?

Eudaimonist · Jul 25, 2011

superman2010 said:
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The firmament is the solid sky dome that the ancient Hebrews thought existed.

eudaimonia,

Mark

hisgrace26 · Jul 25, 2011

Eudaimonist said:
The firmament is the solid sky dome that the ancient Hebrews thought existed.

eudaimonia,

Mark

so the greater/lesser light is the celestial bodies. they were made inside the firmament. so then we can say that today our space is the sky. same thing. so why science does not agree?

Eudaimonist · Jul 25, 2011

superman2010 said:
so why science does not agree?

The Hebrews were wrong about the existence of a solid sky dome. Scientists figured out that there isn't one.

eudaimonia,

Mark

FrenchyBearpaw · Jul 25, 2011

superman2010 said:
so the greater/lesser light is the celestial bodies. they were made inside the firmament. so then we can say that today our space is the sky. same thing. so why science does not agree?

What's your understanding of "firmament?"

AV1611VET · Jul 25, 2011

superman2010 said:
your thougths?

44

hisgrace26 · Jul 25, 2011

FrenchyBearpaw said:
What's your understanding of "firmament?"

an expanse or arch shaped like structure. everything is suppose to be inside this arch including the sun, moon, and stars. below and above where the waters divided. that's my understanding.

hisgrace26 · Jul 25, 2011

AV1611VET said:
44

i think i am just confused which heaven is gen 1:14 is referring to. so which one were u referring to? was it the atmosphere? from what we know today the the sun, moon, and stars are in space.

AV1611VET · Jul 25, 2011

superman2010 said:
i think i am just confused which heaven is gen 1:14 is referring to. so which one were u referring to? was it the atmosphere? from what we know today the the sun, moon, and stars are in space.

I thought you were confused about Genesis 1:20?

In any case, here is Genesis 1:14 ...

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

... and here is the template:

1st containment field = 1st heaven = atmosphere
2nd containment field = 2nd heaven = outer space
3rd containment field = 3rd heaven = Heaven proper

Question: which heaven did God put the sun and the moon in?

Hint: it's still there.

FrenchyBearpaw · Jul 25, 2011

superman2010 said:
an expanse or arch shaped like structure. everything is suppose to be inside this arch including the sun, moon, and stars. below and above where the waters divided. that's my understanding.

Our closest star is 93 million miles away, so that would have to be one big firmament. To quote H2G2, "Space... is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is..."

hisgrace26 · Jul 25, 2011

AV1611VET said:
I thought you were confused about Genesis 1:20?

well, from reading the NIV translation the 'firmament' seem to be the sky in gen 1:20 regarding the birds that fly in the sky, not space or outer space unless you consider space to be sky? since it says sky, i just take it for what it says. i have no idea there are 3 different heavens. maybe that's why i am so confused.

AV1611VET said:
In any case, here is Genesis 1:14 ...

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

... and here is the template:

1st containment field = 1st heaven = atmosphere

2nd containment field = 2nd heaven = outer space

3rd containment field = 3rd heaven = Heaven proper

Question: which heaven did God put the sun and the moon in?

Hint: it's still there.

well... it cant be outer space because that would be beyond the heavenly bodies. so i'm thinking the first heaven - atmosphere - space?

Jazer · Jul 25, 2011

superman2010 said:
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

is this sky or outer space? can birds fly to outer space? or is it the sky? is the sky outer space? what does this say about the firmament? do modern science agree with genesis? why or why not?

The firmament is the atmosphere. Science says it is as thick as the skin on a apple.

the sun, moon, and stars were the greater/lesser light (gen 1;14). the moon reflects light from the sun and propose no problem. so this is clear. however, a few people said it cannot be the sun, moon, and stars because they are outside in the space, not inside the earth's atmosphere. in gen 1:14 when God made the lights, he placed it inside, not outside.

your thougths?

This is pure physics. This is the way the atmosphere handles light. You have additive and subtractive color theorys and you have reflection, refraction, transparent and translucent and so on. I studied theater in collage so we had to study the physics of light. Also I do a little photography and there you learn how to photograph light as it is reflected off of an object. Black absorbs all light, white reflects all light. Glass can allow all light to pass though, or tinted or smoked glass allows a limited amount of light to pass through. Light just tends to bounce around.

AV1611VET · Jul 25, 2011

superman2010 said:
well... it cant be outer space because that would be beyond the heavenly bodies.

Yes -- it is outer space.

Genesis 1:14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

I'm [seriously] getting the impression that you have a college education; may I ask what area it is in?

(Or are you who I think you are?)

hisgrace26 · Jul 25, 2011

AV1611VET said:
Yes -- it is outer space.

Genesis 1:14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

I'm [seriously] getting the impression that you have a college education; may I ask what area it is in?

(Or are you who I think you are?)

ok, so it is the outer space. i was wrong then.

i had very little college education. my area is not in science. my area is music and audio engineering.

AV1611VET · Jul 25, 2011

superman2010 said:
i had very little college education.

So I'm right? you do have some college education?

You certainly sound like you do, anyway.

Super_Rational · Jul 26, 2011

superman2010 said:
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

is this sky or outer space? can birds fly to outer space? or is it the sky? is the sky outer space? what does this say about the firmament? do modern science agree with genesis? why or why not?

the sun, moon, and stars were the greater/lesser light (gen 1;14). the moon reflects light from the sun and propose no problem. so this is clear. however, a few people said it cannot be the sun, moon, and stars because they are outside in the space, not inside the earth's atmosphere. in gen 1:14 when God made the lights, he placed it inside, not outside.

your thougths?

There's a problem here - you're taking what people wrote about the sky long before they knew much about it and are trying to rationalize it to what we know today. It's like saying a witch doctor can fit into modern medicine. Sometimes an old explanation or belief is just wrong. And that applies to the bible.

Greg1234 · Jul 26, 2011

superman2010 said:
well, from reading the NIV translation the 'firmament' seem to be the sky in gen 1:20 regarding the birds that fly in the sky, not space or outer space unless you consider space to be sky? since it says sky, i just take it for what it says. i have no idea there are 3 different heavens. maybe that's why i am so confused.

This should help you out a bit The Firmament, Third Heaven, and Structure of Things Biblical

juvenissun · Jul 26, 2011

superman2010 said:
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

is this sky or outer space? can birds fly to outer space? or is it the sky? is the sky outer space? what does this say about the firmament? do modern science agree with genesis? why or why not?

the sun, moon, and stars were the greater/lesser light (gen 1;14). the moon reflects light from the sun and propose no problem. so this is clear. however, a few people said it cannot be the sun, moon, and stars because they are outside in the space, not inside the earth's atmosphere. in gen 1:14 when God made the lights, he placed it inside, not outside.

your thougths?

The understanding is that AFTER the sun and the moon were created (of course they are in the space), every other thing (life) created are on the earth.

I don't see any confusion. Do you?

Gracchus · Aug 1, 2011

Jazer said:
The firmament is the atmosphere. Science says it is as thick as the skin on a apple.

This is pure physics. This is the way the atmosphere handles light. You have additive and subtractive color theorys and you have reflection, refraction, transparent and translucent and so on. I studied theater in collage so we had to study the physics of light. Also I do a little photography and there you learn how to photograph light as it is reflected off of an object. Black absorbs all light, white reflects all light. Glass can allow all light to pass though, or tinted or smoked glass allows a limited amount of light to pass through. Light just tends to bounce around.

JohnR7! I didn't realize you had changed your name!

hisgrace26 · Jan 27, 2012

I was wondering how can we know which heaven is which? For example, compare gen 1:17 to 1:20. When God place the sun and moon inside this firmament (1:17) this is referring to outerspace. However, in gen 1:20 when birds fly into the open firmament, we take this as the earth's atmosphere. So therefore I assumed gen 1:17 is only confined to the sky. I think words can throw us off.

gen 1:20

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