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This is a perverse and intentional distortion of what is said. This is the sort of thing that gives Christians the idea that atheists have no morals
Ah, thanks. That's mostly done away with surgically at birth here; and not talked about.
as for the bully comment, i am not taking it back.
i know exactly what some of the mainstream christians are doing over there in the usa.
or worse still, gay bullying simply do not exist ( and yes, i have seen users made that claim on this particular forums).
support g w bush
and please, i am talking about christian general attitude towards the gay community.
so tell me, have you ever try to spoke up on those ungodly action by your fellow christians towards gay before?
i do believe that we are called to hate the sin, but not the sinners? correct?
Heh, let me use your own words.i choose option C which you left out! I wish greed to be spoken about more than homosexuality as I believe it is by far a bigger problem inside and outside the church. If as you say homosexuality is based upon greed then speaking against greed will be of greater benefit anyway as it will address both at once. however if perhaps in every media statement and every sermon where they mention homosexuality they instead just said sexual sin that would be an improvement. See once again why limit it to homosexuality. Do we not think it wrong if i was to go out and try and sleep with as many different women as possible? Once again by focusing on homosexuality we ignore sinful heterosexual side of things. So once again it is a unhealthy focus.
i still say i have no problem with gay marriage being legalised. If a person were to marry someone of the same sex and then later become christian well that could be difficult but no reason to ban it in the first place.
Yes after several years of considering the matter and looking at scriptures I do believe it is wrong. Not because of the most typical passages people use to come to that conclusion. I believe everyone is entitled to voice their opinion. Do I believe in forcingthat opinion on others? No.
(A) All dogs bark.unless you are part of a baptist church that has broken away from the baptist union then yes they do sorry. This is what I meant when I said the church as a whole.
Making one live by the light is very, very different than living by light.Don't know if this is meant to be answered or if it is just for thought. yes I believe our light should fight against darkness. i believe mine does. i guess where we disagree is how to go about that. people are supposed to be able to look at christians and think Wow there is something different about them and I want to know about it. i let people know I am christian and I live by example. I don't believe being a light means making people live the way I say they should.
no need to respond. You have explained in a clearer way that we are in agreement. it was my point all along that the X was not the issue but rather where it was from.
i guess the only point of difference on this that remains is I believe it is possible for a person to lust after God by the spirit which would mean it is from God. You from what I can tell would not agree with that. of course a person may still err and it may not always be by the spirit.
it doesn't matter where his lust came from it is still lusting. So if lusting is wrong without question he sinned. if lusting is neither right or wrong then Jesus didn't sin. it really is that simple.
Seems your learning then!How ''the Illuminati'' manages to brought into those 3 different topics is very creative of the author. And here I thought it was more a spiritual/moral battle within sinful mankind.
Really? It's gone from being a sin to being evil? Would you care to support that view?Homosexuality is evil
I'd be interested to know which of the biblical passages you think support your views against homosexuality remain valid when read in context. It's usually the first thing that goes out of the window!Here it will be context.
Heh, let me use your own words.
Do we not think it is wrong if I was to go out and try and sleep with as many different same sex people as possible? Once again by focusing on sinful heterosexual side of things we ignore the homosexual side of things.
The correct answer to the problem is greed and homosexuality should be spoken out against... because they are both sinful. Your own words rebuked you.
And so you are saying you have no problem with stumbling blocks.
"Sure, set that stumbling block up right over there... I don't care."
How can you speak out against sin, if you think it is fine?
Opinion from faith = homosexuality is a sin.
Action of faith = homosexuality can be practiced.
If something is wrong, then it is objectively wrong. Homosexuality is evil, yet you want evil in your city/country/world? That's like saying abortion is murder, but I support your right to do it. If you really thought it was murder, you wouldn't allow it, no matter what another thought.
True love cannot embrace evil, it abhors it (Rom 12:9).
If one abhors (X) then one will speak out against (X) not embrace something that supports it. It would be impossible to embrace anything that had (X) in it.
Your trying to separate faith from action... you can't as the fruit will always show the tree. Actions reveal faith (Jam 2:18).
You are speaking with two different voices... and they don't come from the same place (Jam 3:11,12).
(A) All dogs bark.
(B)There is a dog that doesn't bark.
So either B isn't a dog or 'not all dogs bark'.
If one person/pastor/church speaks out against greed, then your claim is false. You can say the majority, but not the whole. My examples have shown the whole cannot be true.
Making one live by the light is very, very different than living by light.
Living by light will mean everything you do or say conforms to the light (something we fall short of).
Making one live by light is even if the world disagrees, you fight for the light. Which we are commanded not to do as we show mercy (unlike the OT).
Living by the light means when your voice is heard it conforms to light. If the world agrees your light has shown. If it disagrees your light has shown. (One will always abhor evil). The light never changes.
What you are advocating is we alter our light, not let it shine, to conform to the world disagreeing. So your light is not shining out in darkness, but being hidden (Matt 5:15). Your faith says shine, your actions keep it hidden.
No you didn't. You said if (X) was the same for both Jesus and those of 1 John 2:16, then it applied to both. Your quote:
Notice the two bolds.
Where it came from was the issue.
It doesn't matter where his lust came from.
A and not A... a contradiction.
You still don't see it. I have given a Biblical response (2 Cor 7:10) and a logical response... we'll add in another, a linguistic response.
You are saying that no matter what, the word "epithumia" can always be related to lust. This is false, for the sake of argument (Biblical and logical) I kept it simple showing how the same word is not dependant upon the same meaning, but by where it came from.
Here it will be context. If you look in a good Greek lexicon under this word there will be a multiple sections. This particular word can have a good sense or a bad sense. Which is why the same Greek word has different English translations like "desire" "passionate" "longing" "lust".
If you were a student and tried to translate every instance of "epithumia" with the English word lust... you would not get a very good grade.
Let me give you a better example. Take the word "apollumi".
In Matt 2:13 Herod is going to search for the Child of Jesus to destroy (apollumi) Him.
In Luke 15:8,9 a woman rejoices over a coin which was lost (apollumi) and then found.
If you tried to translate "a coin which was destroyed and then found" your grade would not be very good.
Point being same Greek word, different contexts, different English words to convey the meaning.
So Biblically, logically, and linguistically Jesus can be epithumia, and have no connection to the epithumia in 1 John 2:16. Your analysis is false.
So to bring it back to 1 John 2:15,16 the lust of the world, the lust of the flesh, etc... is not from God, but from the world and is evil. And if it is evil you as a Christian should let your light shine into darkness, not hide it under a blanket. You should speak out against it as you would any sin, not embrace its spread.
no my words do not condemn me unless they also condemn you. What you said here is what i said. I said both should be spoken against. With such an error in understanding I'm not sure I should continue the discussion. it could just lead to a whole lot of angst.Heh, let me use your own words.
Do we not think it is wrong if I was to go out and try and sleep with as many different same sex people as possible? Once again by focusing on sinful heterosexual side of things we ignore the homosexual side of things.
The correct answer to the problem is greed and homosexuality should be spoken out against... because they are both sinful. Your own words rebuked you.
Mainstream christianity is conforming to the world though, Religions are tax exempt organisations they know which side of daulity their bread is buttered on.We are not conforming to the fallen world, just allowing its pre determined failure to come about through sin. Homosexuality, promiscuity or heterosexual perversion, lies whatever.
Let God be God
Religious leaders imposters, most simply love power most simply wish to have power over others!.Is this not what we hold out for?
You know, what the media tells you. You are not here. It's a big place!
It would be silly to say it has never happened. What do you know about where it happens, and when? How many groups have you spoken with, telling you they are about to go do it? How many of those have you managed to dissuade from doing so?
The main reason it happens, is exactly the sort of thing I discuss with those on CF advancing the homosexual agenda. They should be intelligent enough to be able to put 2 + 2 together, but apparently they are not.
Uh, he is out of office, and has been for some time now.
There is NO SUCH THING. That's like trying to stereotype every homosexual. It's falsehood, outright.
There is no try. You either do, or do not.And I can be seen doing this very thing, on CF. Successfully. Why do you ask?
That does not happen w/o hating the sin. (Which is the hard part for me, until people start lying to me, which has happened A LOT lately)
Not me. i don't want to be alive when the end times hit!Not every church is mainstream, not every Christian conforms to the world.
The bible promises a rising of the lukewarm church, is this not Gods will? Is this not what we hold out for?
Sin is evil.Really? It's gone from being a sin to being evil? Would you care to support that view?
I'd be interested to know which of the biblical passages you think support your views against homosexuality remain valid when read in context. It's usually the first thing that goes out of the window!
I think Dags point is valid, we are of the world but not in it.
Your theology boarders on Dominionism. Its not our place to make demands or judge the worlds sin.
We can acknowledge the sin and contend it, but we cant stop it.
It has to be part of Gods plan if He is sovereign. Our job is protecting the church, calling those chosen out of the world. We let our light shine into darkness, cos its dark.
We are not conforming to the fallen world, just allowing its pre determined failure to come about through sin. Homosexuality, promiscuity or heterosexual perversion, lies whatever.
Let God be God
I disagree with Gay unions being called marriage.
I cant stop choice, I have no mandate. If God wanted Christians to dominate the world, we would.
Its not our place to make demands or judge the worlds sin
no my words do not condemn me unless they also condemn you. What you said here is what i said. I said both should be spoken against. With such an error in understanding I'm not sure I should continue the discussion. it could just lead to a whole lot of angst.
No, that's a Catholic idea. Unconsummated marriages may be dissolved by the Pope. Consummation has no bearing in law.
Both being perfect examples of context being thrown out. And Leviticus is linguistically obscure, too. Ah well, I wasn't really expecting anything else-Rom 1:20-32. Since creation reveals God (v20) there is no excuse, both for homosexuality as well as who God is. In violating who God is (v23) God gave them over to their lusts of the hearts (v24) which ended up in degrading passions in regards to their women (v26) and for men with men (v27). The natural (God's created intent) versus the unnatural (people's degrading intent).
- For Paul's words against homosexuality one needs first the OT and the Law. Lev 18:22 says "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
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