Fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe.

sandwiches · May 24, 2011

Let's recap:

1) OP asks a question open to Christians and non-Christians.
2) Some people answer and others ask for clarification.
3) OP throws tantrum because people didn't agree with him or asked questions.
4) OP tries to limit the conversation to the Christian god.
5) People continue asking questions and disagreeing with OP
6) OP accuses all who disagree or ask questions as "obstructionists."

That's about the gist of this thread.

Gracchus · May 24, 2011

sandwiches said:
Let's recap:

1) OP asks a question open to Christians and non-Christians.
2) Some people answer and others ask for clarification.
3) OP throws tantrum because people didn't agree with him or asked questions.
4) OP tries to limit the conversation to the Christian god.
5) People continue asking questions and disagreeing with OP
6) OP accuses all who disagree or ask questions as "obstructionists."

That's about the gist of this thread.

Well it stands to reason that if you have God and truth on your side you should sweep all oppostion before you with ridiculous ease. If you don't there must be some sinister reason. Could it be ... SATAN?!?!

Pachomius · May 25, 2011

You atheist guys can go on and on and on with nitpicking for avoiding the issue, the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

I am not going to be entrapped into your cowardly maneuverings over word meanings and statistics, etc.

So, I will leave you guys now, and start a similar thread in a board reserved only for Christians.

Again I have the confirmation that atheists who are vociferous in message boards on the issue of God or no God are scared-stiff to really go into the concept of God in the fundamental sense of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

That is what their arguments all amount to, evasion, muddling up the issue, etc., but they will never go into the issue itself of first examining the concept of God in His fundamental character in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

There is no utmost good faith and no utmost good will from such vociferous atheists, and they should know it within themselves if they do care to see which they don't by positive intention but of course futile no matter how you atheists can choose to not see, that you atheist guys who are vociferous in message boards that you don't have any intellectual honesty.

The mind is accessible to the truth and it cannot but see it when it is present, but you atheist guys will suppress your mind in order to cater to your hatred for God.

Anyway, examine at least for you owe it to yourselves why you hate God, no it is not because of intellectual honesty but because of other motivations and passions and attachments and fears by which you are ruled or positively prefer to be ruled by.

The mind I submit of man is not evil or good, or I should say it is good because it exists and secondly because it is ordained by God to see the truth.

But it is the will of the vociferous atheists that can be and is evil when these vociferous atheists choose freely to adopt what their mind knows to be evil.

And these vociferous theists can behave thus with impunity because they know that they are anonymous in the internet.

Parkhouse

sandwiches · May 26, 2011

Pachomius said:
You atheist guys can go on and on and on with nitpicking for avoiding the issue, the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

I am not going to be entrapped into your cowardly maneuverings over word meanings and statistics, etc.

So, I will leave you guys now, and start a similar thread in a board reserved only for Christians.

Again I have the confirmation that atheists who are vociferous in message boards on the issue of God or no God are scared-stiff to really go into the concept of God in the fundamental sense of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

That is what their arguments all amount to, evasion, muddling up the issue, etc., but they will never go into the issue itself of first examining the concept of God in His fundamental character in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

There is no utmost good faith and no utmost good will from such vociferous atheists, and they should know it within themselves if they do care to see which they don't by positive intention but of course futile no matter how you atheists can choose to not see, that you atheist guys who are vociferous in message boards that you don't have any intellectual honesty.

The mind is accessible to the truth and it cannot but see it when it is present, but you atheist guys will suppress your mind in order to cater to your hatred for God.

Anyway, examine at least for you owe it to yourselves why you hate God, no it is not because of intellectual honesty but because of other motivations and passions and attachments and fears by which you are ruled or positively prefer to be ruled by.

The mind I submit of man is not evil or good, or I should say it is good because it exists and secondly because it is ordained by God to see the truth.

But it is the will of the vociferous atheists that can be and is evil when these vociferous atheists choose freely to adopt what their mind knows to be evil.

And these vociferous theists can behave thus with impunity because they know that they are anonymous in the internet.

Parkhouse

Bye!

Wiccan_Child · May 26, 2011

Pachomius said:
You atheist guys can go on and on and on with nitpicking for avoiding the issue, the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

The issue's been answered. If you don't like the answers, then expect a debate.

Pachomius said:
I am not going to be entrapped into your cowardly maneuverings over word meanings and statistics, etc.

Yes, darn those cowardly facts and figures.

Pachomius said:
So, I will leave you guys now, and start a similar thread in a board reserved only for Christians.

Again I have the confirmation that atheists who are vociferous in message boards on the issue of God or no God are scared-stiff to really go into the concept of God in the fundamental sense of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

That is what their arguments all amount to, evasion, muddling up the issue, etc., but they will never go into the issue itself of first examining the concept of God in His fundamental character in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

Well, why should they?

Pachomius said:
There is no utmost good faith and no utmost good will from such vociferous atheists, and they should know it within themselves if they do care to see which they don't by positive intention but of course futile no matter how you atheists can choose to not see, that you atheist guys who are vociferous in message boards that you don't have any intellectual honesty.

The mind is accessible to the truth and it cannot but see it when it is present, but you atheist guys will suppress your mind in order to cater to your hatred for God.

Yes, we hate something we don't believe in. Marvellous logic there

Pachomius said:
Anyway, examine at least for you owe it to yourselves why you hate God, no it is not because of intellectual honesty but because of other motivations and passions and attachments and fears by which you are ruled or positively prefer to be ruled by.

Ah, so now you're telling us not only what we think and believe, but why we believe it. Humility at it's best, eh?

Pachomius said:
The mind I submit of man is not evil or good, or I should say it is good because it exists and secondly because it is ordained by God to see the truth.

But it is the will of the vociferous atheists that can be and is evil when these vociferous atheists choose freely to adopt what their mind knows to be evil.

And these vociferous theists can behave thus with impunity because they know that they are anonymous in the internet.

The irony of this last statement is truly delicious.

Ciao.

Pachomius · May 26, 2011

I started a new thread here in philosophy with the title Gracchus is lying etc.

I guess the administration does not want it to continue, because it does not seem in accordance with Christian charity.

But I will still ask when I have time whether it can be restored.

Or it is still not yet to be restored but has been put in storage for the time being.

I have not received any notice from the administration on this move of their.

So, guys here, I will be around again to resume our exchange of thoughts on the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

To Gracchus, I love to deal with you exclusively here in this thread because you are a most intriguing study for me in my examination and investigation of the heart and mind of what I now call the vociferous atheists in web forums.

Pachomius

Wiccan_Child · May 26, 2011

Pachomius said:
I started a new thread here in philosophy with the title Gracchus is lying etc.

I guess the administration does not want it to continue, because it does not seem in accordance with Christian charity.

But I will still ask when I have time whether it can be restored.

Or it is still not yet to be restored but has been put in storage for the time being.

I have not received any notice from the administration on this move of their.

They likely won't let you start a thread entitled "Graccus is lying etc". That amounts to spitefully picking on one (or a few) members, and making a thread deliberately to provoke inflammatory remarks - these things are heavily moderated here at CF.

Pachomius said:
So, guys here, I will be around again to resume our exchange of thoughts on the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

To Gracchus, I love to deal with you exclusively here in this thread because you are a most intriguing study for me in my examination and investigation of the heart and mind of what I now call the vociferous atheists in web forums.

Now, really, is that attitude really necessary? Insulting someone and treating them like a lab rat is hardly going to engender them to cooperate. Whatever happened to a little Christian charity and humility?

Pachomius · May 26, 2011

Addressing all men with the utmost good faith and the utmost good will to exchange thoughts on the fundamental concept of God in the Christan faith in relation to the universe, here is again my formulation of the concept of God:

Maker of everything that is not God Himself.

Maker
of
everything
that
is
not
God
Himself.

Why do we have to first know the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe?

Because unless we know, we will not be on guard against derailment by atheists, that is atheists who are vociferously attacking God even though they profess to not believe in God, we will not know that they are attacking the wrong target, and therefore they are being insane or not insane but actually wanting to insult God with vituperative degrading words to get satisfaction in nursing their hatred for God.

And that is all very irrational, that is why atheists are irrational.

And what is that to Christians?

Well, it is edifying to Christians, specially new Christians.

Look up the word edifying.

Pachomius

KCfromNC · May 27, 2011

Is this philosophy or Christian apologetics?

Wiccan_Child · May 27, 2011

Pachomius said:
Addressing all men with the utmost good faith and the utmost good will to exchange thoughts on the fundamental concept of God in the Christan faith in relation to the universe, here is again my formulation of the concept of God:
Maker of everything that is not God Himself.
Maker
of
everything
that
is
not
God
Himself.

Why do we have to first know the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe?

I haven't the foggiest.

Pachomius said:
Because unless we know, we will not be on guard against derailment by atheists, that is atheists who are vociferously attacking God even though they profess to not believe in God, we will not know that they are attacking the wrong target, and therefore they are being insane or not insane but actually wanting to insult God with vituperative degrading words to get satisfaction in nursing their hatred for God.

And that is all very irrational, that is why atheists are irrational.

Please, come down from your high horse. Atheists only react 'vituperatively' when talked to in kind - you see high and low theists attacking and insulting atheists. You're doing this very same thing here, calling all atheists vociferous, vituperative, and irrational. Such broad-brushing slander is hardly conducive to a civil debate - and yet you claim to be "Addressing all men with the utmost good faith and the utmost good will to exchange thoughts"?

Pachomius said:
And what is that to Christians?

Well, it is edifying to Christians, specially new Christians.

Look up the word edifying.

"That educates, informs, illuminates or instructs. That enlightens or uplifts."

So behind your diatribe, your post boils down to:

Atheists are irrational, and their hatred for God belies their underlying belief in God.
Smearing atheists as such is educational for Christians, especially new Christians.

Which leaves me wondering: what does this bemusingly hypocritical slander have to do with the "fundamental concept of God in the Christan faith in relation to the universe"?

Eudaimonist · May 27, 2011

Pachomius said:
You atheist guys can go on and on and on with nitpicking for avoiding the issue, the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

I am not going to be entrapped into your cowardly maneuverings over word meanings and statistics, etc.

"God is in the details." Or perhaps the lack of a God.

There is nothing cowardly about examining an issue carefully. This is just being honest with oneself by refusing to give oneself blinders.

Anyway, examine at least for you owe it to yourselves why you hate God, no it is not because of intellectual honesty but because of other motivations and passions and attachments and fears by which you are ruled or positively prefer to be ruled by.

I find that intellectual honesty is precisely what motivates many, and perhaps most, atheists to be atheists.

But it is the will of the vociferous atheists that can be and is evil when these vociferous atheists choose freely to adopt what their mind knows to be evil.

How would you know what goes on in the minds of atheists? Telling yourself that atheists advocate what their minds know to be evil may make you feel good about yourself, but it's not much more than a comforting fiction.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Pachomius · May 27, 2011

First, the philosophy behind the 38,000 denominations, no it is not sects as alleged by a poster here, but denominations, which no two denominations (sects is the word he uses and it is pejorative) agree on any point of doctrine, he also alleges.

If you will do some serious and keen research just in the internet, and correct me if my findings are wrong, denomination in the World Christian Encyclopedia means a group of churches or congregations in one country professing the same doctrinal statement and life discipline -- that is in my own words as I have found out from my readings on denomination as used in the World Christian Encyclopedia.

Pay attention to the phrase, "in one country," it is a very important qualifier, as you will notice next.

So that there are 236 denominations of the Roman Catholic Church in the 238 (sic) countries, wherefore only two countries monitored do not have, it seems to the editors of the World Christian Encyclopedia, any presence of the Roman Catholic Church.

[ Enter this phrase in google, 236 denominations in 238 countries. ]

And also there is only one denomination of the Southern Baptist Convention in the whole USA, but where there is a presence of churches belonging to the Southern Baptist Convention in every country in the world, those collected churches in each country count as individual denominations.

So that as with the Roman Catholic Church there are as many Southern Baptist Convention denominations as there are countries having churches belonging to the Southern Baptist Convention.

If there is only one Southern Baptist Convention church in say Fiji, then that one church in Fiji counts as a denomination, for the purpose of the World Christian Encyclopedia.

That is why it is commonly mentioned in the media that there are as many as 38,000 Christian denominations, basing their statement on the World Christian Encyclopedia, but people in the media don't know about what is a denomination for census number in the World Christian Encyclopedia.

Now, mind you, the number is about denominations not sects; no, there are no tens of thousands of Christians sects and no two can agree on any point of doctrine, as alleged by that poster Gracchus.

Why do they adopt that method of counting denominations in the World Christian Encyclopedia?

Why else but so that they the editors can have a lot of Christian denominations, but atheists then interpret that lot of Christian denominations in reference to no two denominations agree on any one point of doctrine.

Whereas unless you are a total ignoramus you know that there are common doctrines among all Christians at least who call themselves Christians, and foremost is the belief in one fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, namely, God is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.

That is philosophy, if it is not philosophy, then I am not sorry to disagree with you, and I suggest you read more about philosophy and realize that philosophy is the continuous unending search for the programming that exists, or might exist, or should exist in everything in the light of reason.

That is my definition of philosophy and I always try to say things so that man in the street can understand it right away and know what is black and what is white.

Shall we return to the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe?

Maker of everything that is not God Himself.

Maker
of
everything
that
is
not
God
Himself.

No one has yet gone into an examination the concept, as far as I know but I have not read every post here carefully, because as soon as I notice that the author of a post is into obstructionism I stop reading -- it is pointless and I can't be wasting my time and attention trying to answer every obstructionistic utterance made by posters here, who can be motivated by all kinds of agenda, foremost among vociferous atheists is to make it impossible to have a genuine exchange of thoughts on the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

You see, dear gentle readers here, a concept is like an invitation to go on an exploration, unless you have a concept for example of BigFoot that is carefully conceived and verbalized you cannot go forth into the expedition to find him, unless you are insane or not using your intelligence.

Pachomius

Pachomius · May 27, 2011

I am reproducing here my immediately preceding post with corrections in those excerpts where there are words which I should change for the sake of civility.

Originally posted by Pachomius; 57586804

[...]

Whereas unless you are a total stranger (ignoramus) you know that there are common doctrines among all Christians at least who call themselves Christians, and foremost is the belief in one fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, namely, God is the maker of everything that is not God Himself.

[...]

No one has yet gone into an examination the concept, as far as I know but I have not read every post here carefully, because as soon as I notice that the author of a post is into obstructionism I stop reading -- it is pointless and I can't be wasting my time and attention trying to answer every obstructionistic utterance made by posters here, who can be motivated by all kinds of agenda, foremost among articulate (vociferous) atheists is to make it impossible to have a genuine exchange of thoughts on the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

[...]

You see, dear gentle readers here, a concept is like an invitation to go on an exploration, unless you have a concept for example of BigFoot that is carefully conceived and verbalized you cannot go forth into the expedition to find him, unless you are distracted (insane) or not using your memory (intelligence).

Hope that be civil.

Pachomius

Pachomius · May 28, 2011

I saw Gracchus in Scienceville and asked him to return to this thread when I learned from him that he is not an atheist but a panentheist.

Pachomius said:
You a panentheist, good, pleased to know one.

Originally posted by Gracchus; 57588849

[...]

I am a panentheist. ...

[...]

Pleased to meet a panentheist.

So, you are not an atheist, but you do not like Christianity, yes? no?

This forum does not mind digression, am I correct?

Or would you rather go back to the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe, I like very much to hear your views on panentheism.

I promise not to call you a liar anymore.

I await with excitement his return to this thread.

Now, I like to propose to posters in this thread to identify yourselves as theist or atheist or panentheist or pantheist or whatever, so that I can orient myself correctly in regard to your background, otherwise I could be hitting the wrong target.

Pachomius

Inan3 · May 28, 2011

Tinker Grey said:
Since I do not know that God exists, I cannot know its relation to the universe.

However if a god were to exist, one might wonder whether it would merit the title if it did not create the universe. Nevertheless, many religions have existed that did not entail their god(s) creating the universe.

As for the Christian god, I wonder what makes a concept fundamental. Second, what does being the creator of something mean with respect to being "in relation to" that something?

How does your wondering what makes a concept fundamental tie in with the Christian God?

Well, it seems plausible that if there was a creator of something it would have relation to the thing it created in someway.

Firstly, what was the thought or process gone through to to bring about the creation, secondly, HOW was it created, thirdly, was it created to HAVE a relation with it's creator, fourthly, if so, what does that relation entail?

Just a few possible respects for creator being "in relation to" creation.

Pachomius · May 28, 2011

From stock knowledge, and correct me if I wrong, panentheism is the idea that everything is in God.

So, if everything is in God, therefore God is in everything.

I think that is still compatible with God in the Christian faith in the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe, namely:

Maker of everything that is not God Himself.

Even in the Bible there is a verse which says:

For in Him we live and move and have our being.

No, I don't see how the concept of a panentheist God could be incompatible with the God in the Christian faith insofar as the fundamental concept of God in relation to the universe is concerned, namely:

Maker of everything that is not God Himself.

Pachomius

Pachomius · May 28, 2011

Sorry. guys, the font size in the preceding message is number 6, I am experimenting with font size.

Now, see if this size 4 is better.

Pachomius

Pachomius · May 28, 2011

Now, this is size 2.

I am trying to get a font size that is larger, because if I use the zoom in feature of the browser what happens is that a line of text goes beyond the right side of the monitor screen, and you have to go all the way beyond to read and then come back, which is annoying.

Let's see how size 2 turns out.

Or my messages appear in your monitor all different in regard to my adopted font size?

Well, good then, I am not causing you any trouble with using a different font size from the default size.

Pachomius

Pachomius · May 28, 2011

So, Gracchus, we should not have any conflict in regard to the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe.

Even though as you say you are not into Christianity, and can even be critical toward it.

Just the same, if I were to organize a universal council of theists I believe you can sign up because you are still a theist even though your God is in everything or everything for you is in God.

What were we quarreling about?

Pachomius

Pachomius · May 28, 2011

What about polytheists and pantheists, yes also, but not atheists unless they know the fundamental concept of God in the Christian faith in relation to the universe insofar as concept is concerned -- even though they deny that such a God exists in the realm of reality outside the realm of concepts -- and in addition they promise not to argue the non-existence of God by bringing in spaghetti, unicorn, teapot, but of course they can being in such concepts as a square-circle or an infinite regress.

So, in effect, even atheists are welcome to sign up with my idea of a universal council of theists, for the study of God.

Hahaha! as God is the maker of everything that is not God Himself, it is only man among His creation that studies Him.

Pachomius

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