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Was it Body, soul and spirit in both cases??
This is a very difficult question, and I don't think @BobRyan provided an answer. It is true that the Lord was resurrected in a spiritual body. But how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of transfiguration? Were they spirits only? Or were they spirit + soul?Jesus was raised IN THE FLESH... in other words it was a bodily resurrection - no corpse. He is the first born of many. So it is for all true believers.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.Soul differs from spirit in that in life the soul is the entire person
This is according to SDA's and JW's.in death the spirit separated from the body and dormant is how the person (the soul) is said to be dormant
This is not a true translation. You're quoting from JW Bible where it says:"remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom... verily I say unto you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise".
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”And as we see in John 20:17 - Jesus had not yet been to paradise as of the point of His resurrection.
Yes, indeed. But did Stephen expect his spirit to be unconscious? What kind of hope is that? How can you assume that spirits are unconscious when they return to God? God, by definition, is consciousness. Spirits, after losing their connection to the body, are even more conscious than before.The Bible says that at death "the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it" Eccl 12:7. Stephen is appealing to that same thing in Acts 7: 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
This passage in about the resurrection of the body. The body is what is dormant. The dead in Christ will rise first. The flesh is asleep. I'm even willing to say the soul, in some sense, is resting. But the spirit is conscious to the glory of God and the praise of Christ.By contrast "so shall we ever be WITH the Lord" in 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a statement about being awake (not dormant) and with the Lord at Christ's appearing - at the rapture's resurrection.
I didn't realize the NT was so confusing! You quote standard texts that prove post-mortem consciousness. In Joh 14:1-3, the Lord promises his disciples that they will be where he is now, not in the far future after resurrection of the body!Jesus makes the same point in John 14:1-3 saying that re turns to receive us to Himself "so that WHERE I am THERE you may be also".
The point is that we want to be awake and not dormant.. because as Jesus said in Matt 22 - in the dormant state "God is not the god of the dead" which is why there has to be a future resurrection.
You believe the we are our souls. But, in fact, we are our spirits. The spirits are aware, conscious, before and after death.No text says that when the spirit departs - we are "With the Lord"
I'm glad you do not consider Rich and Lazarus "science fiction." Interesting that you see in the parable evidence of prayer to the dead. I didn't notice this before. Perhaps Catholics are right about this belief. The point of the parable is that "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead,” which was a prophecy of the Jewish leaders' unbelief even after the resurrection of Jesus.It is as you say - a parable with prayers to the dead from other dead people and no prayer at all to God. In that parable Abraham is in charge of all the dead saints and is sovereign to whom the dead souls in hell can appeal to ---
Where do you see this in the parable of Rich and Lazarus?yet even Abraham in this parable states that the only way for someone to communicate with people on Earth is to first be resurrected.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,Not "doubt" but rather accurate information "all scripture is inspired by God and to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16
I've explained how this is completely untrue. You assume that the spirit in the afterlife is unconscious. This assumption contradicts NT teaching as shown in post #72. When our hardware is asleep, God will download our software on to his hardware, which makes our spirits (our applications) quite conscious.the spirit returns to God in the state of death as John 11 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 states -- in a dormant state. Which is why in Matt 22 Jesus said "God is not the god of the dead"
This is a very difficult question, and I don't think @BobRyan provided an answer. It is true that the Lord was resurrected in a spiritual body. But how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of transfiguration? Were they spirits only? Or were they spirit + soul?
They could not have been spiritual bodies other wise they would have been resurrected before Christ. It's a difficult issue. What do you think?
Yes that is pretty close to how I see it except that for Jesus the present and the future are one.
This is a very difficult question, and I don't think @BobRyan provided an answer.
It is true that the Lord was resurrected in a spiritual body.
But how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of transfiguration? Were they spirits only? Or were they spirit + soul?
They could not have been spiritual bodies other wise they would have been resurrected before Christ.
You believe the we are our souls
. But, in fact, we are our spirits.
Agreed - in life - joined to the body the spirit is responsible for being aware, conscious.The spirits are aware, conscious
I'm glad you do not consider Rich and Lazarus "science fiction." Interesting that you see in the parable evidence of prayer to the dead.
I didn't notice this before. Perhaps Catholics are right about this belief.
The point of the parable is that "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead,”
which was a prophecy of the Jewish leaders' unbelief even after the resurrection of Jesus.
Where do you see this in the parable of Rich and Lazarus?
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,
Yes, indeed. But I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of progressive revelation
. After Jesus' resurrection, He showed to his disciples how the scriptures prophecies about Him. The Jewish leaders could not understand the scriptures properly.
since scripture says --
Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead. which has to be the case if the dormant spirit/soul is not interacting. Jesus uses that fact to prove the future bodily resurrection to die-hard opponents like the Sadducees.
Ps 115.17 praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
Ps 30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity
5For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.
Is 38:18 there is no thanks or praise to god given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;
I've explained how this is completely untrue. You assume that the spirit in the afterlife is unconscious.
This assumption contradicts NT teaching as shown in post #72. When our hardware is asleep, God will download our software on to his hardware, which makes our spirits (our applications) quite conscious.
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”
Before meeting with Mary Magdalene, Christ had already gone to Paradise (the 3rd heaven) as he promised the repentant thief but He had not gone up to the throne of the Father in the 7th heaven.
This is something I've been pondering for a while now. Assuming it actually exists, what role does the soul play in everyday life? The way I see it, we humans experience life through the activities of our bodies. We see with our eyes. We think with our brains, and so forth. I really am not sure what part the soul would have in that process.
What do you all think?
What do you all think?
This is an interesting idea.Moses and Elijah are in the form of manifested images identifying their souls. We humans cannot recognize souls, that's why we need a body acting as an image for us to recognize each other. In the absence of such a physical body, an image can be manifested to represent Moses and Elijah.
I agree.Actually when someone sees ghosts, what they saw is also the manifested images. However, as they are manifested by the evil spirits they don't need to represent a soul correctly. That's why when you see the ghost of one of your close relatives, say your long-dead grandpa, 'he' may not be your grandpa at all but disguised by the evil spirit behind that image.
You're saying that Moses and Elijah were physical human beings like Lazarus after his resurrection. This is quite possible. But it begs the question as to where have been their physical bodies hidden before and after the transfiguration?Jesus resurrected many people before his own resurrection. Enoch and Elijah never died. Moses was bodily assumed into heaven as we see in "the Assumption of Moses" a book quoted in Jude 1:9
This is a very difficult question, and I don't think @BobRyan provided an answer. It is true that the Lord was resurrected in a spiritual body. But how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mount of transfiguration? Were they spirits only? Or were they spirit + soul?
They could not have been spiritual bodies other wise they would have been resurrected before Christ. It's a difficult issue. What do you think?
No, sleep is of 2 types: NREM and REM. One is considered conscious during REM and unconscious during NREM. Still, you can easily awake someone who is asleep.Sleep is a term that conveys a dormant condition for the person regardless of the fact that their body is now dust and dust of course does not "appear to sleep".
As I said before, I don't have a problem saying that the soul is asleep in some sense. My emphasis is on post-mortem consciousness of the spirit.I see in the texts quoted above that the person is said have "fallen asleep in Jesus" as 1 Thess 4:13-18 which is not a reference to dust - dust does not have a "sleep" function and God is not tracking dust for the resurrection. Jesus says "our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" -- as in "him" the person.
Our post-mortem spirit is not joined to some other body. It is joined to God, to whom it returns. Thus it is not an undesirable state. And 2Co 5 is a good example that proves my point:No text says that while we are asleep in Jesus our spirit is joined to some other body. Rather in 2 Cor 5:2-8 it is the "unclothed" state between death and resurrection Paul says it is an undesirable state.
This supports what I have been saying. God is not the God of the unconscious.Jesus says "god is not the god of the dead" and the texts above show that all worship functions cease at death. We worship God "in spirit" John 4- even while living - and the texts above say that function does not happen in death.
You quoted an extra-biblical source and I didn't object. But anyway, the Bible does say that God is above the heavens. So his throne must be higher than the 3rd heaven:The Bible does not say the throne of God is in a seventh heaven.
Rev 2:7 says that tree of life is in Paradise. Rev 22:1-3 says that the river of the water of life flows from the throne of God and the Lamb. No problem there. The Nile flows from Ethiopia and Equatorial Africa. But we get cotton from Egypt.The Bible says God's throne is in Paradise compare Rev 2:7 and Rev 22:1-3
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