Fun with the Flood math.

Eddie · Mar 17, 2003

Today at 07:04 AM Micaiah said this in Post #60

Arikay, you have been listening to people too much and not enough to what the Scriptures teach. Unfortunately you beliefs reflect the natural outcome of your mode of interpretation.

The message of Scripture is about real people and events. Noah's flood was one such story.

Of all stories in the Bible, it seems to me that Noah has been most throughly debunked. 

Frumious Bandersnatch · Mar 17, 2003

The message of Scripture is about real people and events. Noah's flood was one such story.

Of all stories in the Bible, it seems to me that Noah has been most throughly debunked. 

The worldwide flood of Noah is a myth that has indeed been thoroughly debunked for nearly 200 years.

If it were not a myth how could varves in Lake Baikal record a few million years of climate change?

http://www.igc.irk.ru/2001-web/Institute/English/Page2-eng.pdf

How did approximately 180 species of marsupial and montreme mammals including the Koala who only lives in trees, the Playpus that only lives in streams and blind or nearly blind mole like animals that only live in sand get to Australia which only rats and bats for company if they came off an ark in the Middle East in the company of all the other kinds of animals in the world? Not only did they get there, they left no evidence that they ever lived any place else.  The flightless Kiwi got to New Zealand with no mammals for company. How?

How did mulitple layers of salt, amounting to hundreds of trillions of tons get deposited during a worldwide flood?  There is estimated to be about 70 trillion tons under the Michigan ara alone.

http://www.saltinstitute.org/mich-1.html

How is it that there are animals tracks burrows and even nests found in layers that are supposed flood deposits which lay on top of other supposed flood deposits? Did Dinosaurs stop to build nests during the flood?

http://www.colorado-mall.com/HTML/EDUCATIONAL/SCIENCES/PALEONTOLOGY/FOSSILS/TRACE_FOSSILS/ABOUT_TRACE/About_Trace_Fossils.html

http://rainbow.ldgo.columbia.edu/courses/v1001/14.html

http://www.emory.edu/COLLEGE/ENVS/research/ichnology/dinoeggs.htm

http://www.psiaz.com/Schur/azpaleo/tracefos.html

Why is it that the fossils of large mammals from the Eocine onward are never found with dinosaur fossils?

http://www.earthlife.net/mammals/evolution.html

How did wales and dolphins survive the flood. According to Genesis everything outside the ark with the breath of life in its nostrils died. Marine mammals breathe air. Did Noah have a giant transparent aluminum tank like the one in Star Trek IV?

How did the walrus and sea lion pairs get to and from the ark?

How did insects like the 1500 members of the order ephemerotera that only live in fresh water and  often only in running water survive? There adult forms only live a few hours to a few days during which time they must mate. Did Noah have a stream of fesh running water on board?

How about ground dwelling insects? Cicada larvea live in the dirt under living trees for up to 17 years. The adult stages only live a while and then lay egss near healthy trees. Did Noah have a small forest on board as well?

If the flood is not a myth there should be answers to these and dozens of other questions such as the ones rasied on other threads regarding angular unconformities and the Hawaiian islands. Creationists have no real answers to many of these questions beyond "God did it". Either the flood is a myth or God went to a great deal of trouble to cover it up. If He went to all this trouble to cover-up His horrible crime why did he have Moses or someone write it down?

The Frumious Bandersnatch

JohnR7 · Mar 17, 2003

Today at 08:35 AM Frumious Bandersnatch said this in Post #62

How did mulitple layers of salt, amounting to hundreds of trillions of tons get deposited during a worldwide flood?  There is estimated to be about 70 trillion tons under the Michigan ara alone. 

That is an amazing thing: "70 trillon tons"? I do not know how God did it, but I sure can tell you WHY. Because we need that salt here in the winter to melt the snow on our roads. They put tons and tons of salt out there. There is all you want, all you need and it is pretty cheap. I buy 50 pound bags of salt for about $4. 25 pounds will cover our parking lot & sidewalk here so we do not have to worry about the old people slipping on the ice.

For me it is just God's miracle supply. Just like our Gas and Oil. We should be running out natural gas by now. At least that is what they said was going to happen 50 years ago. But there is plenty. It is just God's miracle supply for what we need.

JohnR7 · Mar 17, 2003

Today at 08:35 AM Frumious Bandersnatch said this in Post #62 Either the flood is a myth or God went to a great deal of trouble to cover it up.

Noah built an Ark, and there was a flood. It has been suggested that the flood was local and covered the land of Eden: "Adamia". That would be close to the area between the Tigris and the Euphrades river. In what is now Iraq.

The geography there has changed somewhat over the years. The city of Ur use to be a port city on the far north of the Persian Gulf. Now it is 150 miles from the Persian Gulf and it has not been inhabited sense about 500 bc.

Around 3000 years ago, they had some rather advanced flood control there, but the Mongolians came along and destroyed it. There is a history of at least two or three whole groups of people being destroyed by floods. But new groups always came along to replace them. Because the farm land there is so furtile. Flood planes have a lot of sediment and that makes for rich land to use to grow food on.

Frumious Bandersnatch · Mar 17, 2003

Noah built an Ark, and there was a flood. It has been suggested that the flood was local and covered the land of Eden: "Adamia". That would be close to the area between the Tigris and the Euphrades river. In what is now Iraq.

I don't have problem with a local flood. You will notice that in my first sentence in the post above I said that the worldwide flood of Noah is a myth.  I forgot to add worldwide in the last paragraph.

The geography there has changed somewhat over the years. The city of Ur use to be a port city on the far north of the Persian Gulf. Now it is 150 miles from the Persian Gulf and it has not been inhabited sense about 500 bc.

The flood that modern YEC's envision is supposed to have totally changed all the geology and geography of the world. The Euphrates river and the land of Ethopia that are mentioned as near by to Eden in Genesis 2:10-14, could not have existed both before and after a flood caused by massive ultra fast continental drift that deposited thousands of feet of sediments as in the AiG/ICR version of the worldwide flood.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

Arikay · Mar 17, 2003

Really? How so?

How did my beliefs reflect the math that I did based on the information the bible gave me?

Ok, If noahs ark and the global flood was one such story, can you show me any evidence that shows that it happend (without using the bible)? Can you show me how Noah put all those fish and whales onto the ark (without rewritting the bible with, "Goddidit")?

I have given you information based on the world and the bible to back up my claims that the global flood didnt really happen. Now can you back up your claims?

Today at 04:04 AM Micaiah said this in Post #60

Arikay, you have been listening to people too much and not enough to what the Scriptures teach. Unfortunately you beliefs reflect the natural outcome of your mode of interpretation.

The message of Scripture is about real people and events. Noah's flood was one such story.

ikester7579 · Mar 18, 2003

Yesterday at 07:41 AM Eddie said this in Post #61

Of all stories in the Bible, it seems to me that Noah has been most throughly debunked. 

Only through opinions. Lets see, fossils of fish found on mountains along with other animals that don't belong there. Animals found frozen in ice in the north and south poles that don't belong there. I guess there's a web site dedicated to debunking this also. A web site full of opinions of what might have happened.

Arikay · Mar 18, 2003

I would say quite more than opinions. There is quite a bit of evidence that the global flood never happend.
Then there is of course, the lack of evidence that it did happen.

Yep, and all that I have heard of are consitent with what geologists believe happend to the earth through the ages.

Today at 01:03 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #67

Only through opinions. Lets see, fossils of fish found on mountains along with other animals that don't belong there. Animals found frozen in ice in the north and south poles that don't belong there. I guess there's a web site dedicated to debunking this also. A web site full of opinions of what might have happened.

ikester7579 · Mar 18, 2003

Everyone keeps asking: where did all the water come from to create such a flood? Well I post this info again. And the deal with to much pressure for anymore water to come out of the ground after water got to high, This answers that question also. And what melted the ice caps? The extreme heat produced when this water was released.

Here's some links I found. http://minerals.gps.caltech.edu/FILES/Visible/wadsleyite/Index.htm
http://ruby.colorado.edu/~smyth/Research/Wads2.pdf
http://www.ldolphin.org/deepwaters.html

"The Fountains of the Deep" Discovered! Proverbs 8:27?28
"When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep...."

The Bible mentions "the fountains of the deep" several times. During the Flood we are told that God opened the fountains of the deep, suggesting seismic activity. When God ended the flooding, we are told that God closed the fountains of the deep, suggesting that they continue to exist, albeit with less water than at creation. Now scientists say that they may have found an astonishing reservoir of water deep in the earth.

The water they believe they have found does not exist in huge underground oceans. The water is tied up in minerals, held there by the tremendous pressures and temperatures deep in the earth. Researchers have shown, for example, that a mineral called wadslyite, which exists only at temperatures above 1800°(F) as deep as 400 miles below the earth, can still hold water. Scientists have figured that if 60 percent of this layer is wadslyite, as seismic data indicate, it could contain enough water to fill 10 oceans. Researchers have also analyzed the amount of this water that is brought to the surface during volcanic eruptions and concluded from their findings that there could be enough water deep in the earth to fill 30 oceans! Because of the way the water is stored, scientists don't expect it to all be released at once.

Eddie · Mar 18, 2003

Today at 04:03 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #67

Only through opinions. Lets see, fossils of fish found on mountains along with other animals that don't belong there. Animals found frozen in ice in the north and south poles that don't belong there. I guess there's a web site dedicated to debunking this also. A web site full of opinions of what might have happened.

Only through opinions?  Have you not been reading threads on the topic?  The only conclusion that I can come to is that you believe in the mother of all conspiracys to keep your truth from the erest of humanity.  Do you believe in conspiracy?

The flood is falsified by geologic columns and the bends in the Colorado river as well as by the laughably absurd contention of all of those animals beiing stored on a boat for 40 days.  The list is rather longer than this.

Tell me why your faith is so brittle that you would engage in self deception to support it. Does your faith teach deception?   

ikester7579 · Mar 18, 2003

Today at 07:10 AM Eddie said this in Post #70

Only through opinions?  Have you not been reading threads on the topic?  The only conclusion that I can come to is that you believe in the mother of all conspiracys to keep your truth from the erest of humanity.  Do you believe in conspiracy?

The flood is falsified by geologic columns and the bends in the Colorado river as well as by the laughably absurd contention of all of those animals beiing stored on a boat for 40 days.  The list is rather longer than this.

Tell me why your faith is so brittle that you would engage in self deception to support it. Does your faith teach deception?   

If you and others that come here do not believe, then why come?

If you believe that the word of God is a conspiracy then in your sense of mind I guess I do. But it's not me who is calling God's word a conspiracy, you are.

Also tell me why your faith in what ever you believe is so weak that you feel the need to come to a christian forum and debate? If you do not like what you read there's a back button on your browser.

Eddie · Mar 18, 2003

Today at 07:19 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #71

If you and others that come here do not believe, then why come?

I believe that the site owners have issued an open invitation.  Why I remain is a different story.  There is something riviting about people who hold strong beliefs in the absence of evidence, it is almost medieval.  To get a feel for this try debating someone who believes that John Edward can talk to dead people.  Their canon consists of his performances, not the bible, but the contortions that they go through are similar to YACists or believers in some of the bigger whoppers in the Bible.  They will also resort to half truths, willful blindness to evidence, and a bunch of other iintellectually dishonest ploys.  It is interesting to observe

If you believe that the word of God is a conspiracy then in your sense of mind I guess I do. But it's not me who is calling God's word a conspiracy, you are.

You see, you are doing what I suggested happens, above.  I said that it would take a conspiracy to keep the truth away.  Very different.  I don't think that the word of god is a conspiracy.

Also tell me why your faith in what ever you believe is so weak that you feel the need to come to a christian forum and debate?

My faith is very strong.  Unlike you, however, I can learn and admit mistakes.  The bible's teaching may be infallible but you certainly are not yet you pretend to understand the ineffable word of god so well that you, pridefully, presume to speak for god and, in so doing, cause great damage to the further promulgation of his word.

 If you do not like what you read there's a back button on your browser.

I like very much what I read here.  Perhaps you might consider posting on the christian only threads

Frumious Bandersnatch · Mar 18, 2003

Today at 09:40 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #69

Everyone keeps asking: where did all the water come from to create such a flood? Well I post this info again. And the deal with to much pressure for anymore water to come out of the ground after water got to high, This answers that question also. And what melted the ice caps? The extreme heat produced when this water was released.

Here's some links I found. http://minerals.gps.caltech.edu/FILES/Visible/wadsleyite/Index.htm
http://ruby.colorado.edu/~smyth/Research/Wads2.pdf
http://www.ldolphin.org/deepwaters.html

"The Fountains of the Deep" Discovered! Proverbs 8:27?28
"When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep...."

The Bible mentions "the fountains of the deep" several times. During the Flood we are told that God opened the fountains of the deep, suggesting seismic activity. When God ended the flooding, we are told that God closed the fountains of the deep, suggesting that they continue to exist, albeit with less water than at creation. Now scientists say that they may have found an astonishing reservoir of water deep in the earth.

The water they believe they have found does not exist in huge underground oceans. The water is tied up in minerals, held there by the tremendous pressures and temperatures deep in the earth. Researchers have shown, for example, that a mineral called wadslyite, which exists only at temperatures above 1800°(F) as deep as 400 miles below the earth, can still hold water. Scientists have figured that if 60 percent of this layer is wadslyite, as seismic data indicate, it could contain enough water to fill 10 oceans. Researchers have also analyzed the amount of this water that is brought to the surface during volcanic eruptions and concluded from their findings that there could be enough water deep in the earth to fill 30 oceans! Because of the way the water is stored, scientists don't expect it to all be released at once.

The are some problems with using this water for a global flood.  First, according to the paper this water  is only 0.1% by weight of the material of the transistion zone.  If you bring up 1000 times as much hot rock at 1800 F as water it should be obvious that to get any significant amount of water you must completely cover the earth with molten lava. 

Suppose it did come out. How did it get back down  to 400 miles below the earth after the flood???

The killer here is that even if it comes out without the rest of the hot mineral it will cook the earth to death.  The atmosphere weighs about 5 x 10^21 grams. The surface of the earth is about 5 x 10^18 square cm.  A cubic centimeter of liquid water weighs 1 gram.   Thus 10 meters (1000 cm) of global rain will weigh as much as the entire atmosphere.  Further the heat capacity (ability to absorb heat) of atmospheric gases averages much less that that of water.

Now think about releasing water at 1800 F amounting to many times the mass of the air into the air from these fountains of the deep. The final temperature will be somewhat below 1800 F because the steam will use up some energy as it expands due to reduced pressure on the surface but the final result will still be an atmosphere of high pressure steam probably well above 1000 F. 

I don't think there ever will be much liquid water. I think the temperature will always be above the point at which water could condense from steam at any pressure.  The temperature would have to drop all the way down to about 700 F before any liquid water could form and I don't think it would if very much of this water was released from the "fountains of the deep".

Fortunately for us this has never happened.

The Frumious Bandersnatch 

Frumious Bandersnatch · Mar 19, 2003

So, does anyone have any more ideas on where the alleged flood water came from and where it went? How about one that doesn't cook the earth to death before or during the flood?

Regards from
The Frumious Bandersnatch

Frumious Bandersnatch · Mar 27, 2003

Might as well bring this one back for the new flood supporters. One bit of flood math I would really like to see is a calculation of how enough water could be evaporated to deposit hundreds of trillions of tons of salt during the flood year at all, let alone without cooking everything on the surface of the earth to death.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

Smilin · Mar 28, 2003

18th March 2003 at 07:19 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #71

Also tell me why your faith in what ever you believe is so weak that you feel the need to come to a christian forum and debate? If you do not like what you read there's a back button on your browser.

I come because it's an open forum. Many of us come simply to watch and observe your behavior, your logic, and how you treat each other. I think (along with many who went before me) that your actions are worth more than your words. If your beliefs cause others to treat everyone else with a higher degree of respect, love and kindness... then your beliefs will become my beliefs too.

Jon · Mar 30, 2003

Math of the flood:
The bible says the flood covered every mountain. Mount Everest is the current largest mountain. Its approx 5.5 miles above sea level. I have rounded it down to 5 miles because the earth is bumpy and its better to under estimate than over estimate.
There are some theories that mountains werent as high as they are now, and that the flood only flooded a 17,000 foot high mountain. However there are flaws to both of these, and ill address them later.
The Radius of the Earth = 3963 miles
The Radius of the earth with 5 miles of water = 3968 Miles.
The volume of the earth = 260711882973.3396 cubic miles
The volume of the earth with water = 261699925947.5533 cubic miles.
261699925947.5533 - 260711882973.3396 = 988042974.2136999965

I havn't read the hole thread yet but this is incorrect;
Before the flood there were no or very few moutains.

Mechanical Bliss · Mar 30, 2003

Today at 12:56 PM Jon said this in Post #77

I havn't read the hole thread yet but this is incorrect;
Before the flood there were no or very few moutains.

Then how did Earth's mountain ranges form in a few thousand years?

Frumious Bandersnatch · Mar 30, 2003

Today at 06:02 PM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #78

Then how did Earth's mountain ranges form in a few thousand years?

What is funny is that the same creationists who tell you there were no significant mountains before the flood will say that fossil sorting occured because some animals ran faster up the mountains or lived at different elevations in the mountains while thousands of feet of sediment were being deposited. How does one run up mountains that don't yet exist?

The Frumious Bandersnatch

Arikay · Mar 30, 2003

I believe I covered this, but Ill go over it again.

There are problems with saying mountains happend after the flood.

1) Science shows that quite a few mountain ranges were slowly formed many many years ago. As was mentioned, the fossil record supports.

2) There is no mention in the bible of mountains coming forth after the flood. Since it would have been a global earth quake event that would have rivaled or beaten the flood in power and awe, a short blurb should have been mentioned.

3) The amount of energy needed to form all the mountains in a single event would have been so great it would have set the earth on fire and probably liquified the earths crust.

4) Continental drift (one of the things that creates mountains) is still happening today and is a measurable event.

The lack of mountains is based on a single line that says "high hills" however,
The lack of both scientific and biblical evidence to support the hypothesis that mountains were created after the flood, falsifies this claim, both from a scientific point of view, and a literal creationist point of view.

Today at 09:56 AM Jon said this in Post #77

I havn't read the hole thread yet but this is incorrect;
Before the flood there were no or very few moutains.

Fun with the Flood math.

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