Fullness of the Gentiles

Bar Melek said:

The Talmud is a racist, evil book. A Christian wouldn't be a Christian anymore if they followed it. And it's only for so-called Jews anyway.

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Your the first I heard say that on this forum

And Christians should not follow noachide law as well

dfw69 said:

That's fine but I come on these forums to talk to individual not read blogs or whatever ... I prefer interactions... That's just me

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I can understand that. But I'm been through this kind of thing many times with people over the years. And I know that it's better for people to look at the actual evidence for themselves, do some of their own research. We're supposed to be a royal priesthood, and we're all responsible for working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We can't rely on other people for the truth, or trust them to be honest and forthright unless we know them personally and we have seen the Holy Spirit at work in their lives. Trust is earned, not given. The Bible never tells us to trust in man.

dfw69 said:

Your the first I heard say that on this forum

And Christians should not follow noachide law as well

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Christians who do that are Porch 'Jews'. But the false Jews (who seriously believe in the Talmud privately or openly) despise all non-false Jews and think of us as animals.

Bar Melek said:

I can understand that. But I'm been through this kind of thing many times with people over the years. And I know that it's better for people to look at the actual evidence for themselves, do some of their own research. We're supposed to be a royal priesthood, and we're all responsible for working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We can't rely on other people for the truth, or trust them to be honest and forthright unless we know them personally and we have seen the Holy Spirit at work in their lives. Trust is earned, not given. The Bible never tells us to trust in man.

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True but it does not hurt sharing our belief ... We learn so we can share with others

Right. That's why I wrote and posted everything I did on Facebook and other sites.

Bar Melek said:

Christians who do that are Porch 'Jews'. But the false Jews (who seriously believe in the Talmud privately or openly) despise all non-false Jews and think of us as animals.

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Yea I read the Talmud unmask before

Cool. Most Christians don't know much about these things, if anything at all. Search the terms "judaism discovered" and "Judaism Discovered by Michael Hoffman II" if you're interested in learning more on the subject.

Bar Melek said:

Cool. Most Christians don't know much about these things, if anything at all. Search the terms "judaism discovered" and "Judaism Discovered by Michael Hoffman II" if you're interested in learning more on the subject.

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I will check it out

I been wondering if those powers that be... Some secret society has based their theology on the Talmud and that's why they have created all the falsehood of the world to deceive and ultimately cause the total fall and destruction of Christianity

dfw69 said:

Do you think Israel's blindness refer to the law ?... That Israel will one day accept the new covenant and forsake serving the law and accept Christ fulfilling the law for them ?

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I think it has to do with Jesus being the Lord from heaven as the second man, because their argument stem mostly from not realizing or accepting that.

Doug

Douggg said:

I think it has to do with Jesus being the Lord from heaven as the second man, because their argument stem mostly from not realizing or accepting that.

Doug

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I thought the Jews had him killed because they knew his doctrine of fulfilling the law for man ... And many Jews believed his message but fell away when he died not thinking he would perish being there soon future king... The establishment felt he would alter their way of life ... That Jews would not have to keep the law anymore... Which would end Judaism ... If Jews were to stop keeping the law because the new covenant was here replacing the old covenant... This was a dangerous teaching and had to be dealt with...

Paul's fullness of the gentiles is actually a direct reference to the melo ha'goyim prophesied by Jacob over the future offspring of Ephraim...Do the word study of Jacob’s prophecy over Ephraim as I have done! The word “melo” is translated by the Greek word “pleroma” in the Septuagint. This is the exact word Paul uses in Roman’s 11, and therefore the connection is clear. The word means fullness, not a multitude. Goyim is obviously gentiles...it speaks of the many, many, who did not return from the Assyrian captivity who are sown in among the gentiles. See

Hosea 7:8a - Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people (the goyim)…

Hosea 8:8 - Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

Hosea 9:17 - My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations. OR

In Isaiah 49, they are called Jacob and the scattered sheep (for Judah as of yet had not been carried away), where regarding His unique Servant, Messiah, the light unto the Gentiles, it is said that He “will bring Jacob (those of the scattered Northern Tribes) back“!

Most of them that remained in the outermost regions either chose not to return at all, or else were so acculturated, that they no longer recognized themselves even as being Israelite, but rather identified themselves with the nations in which they and their parents had been raised. They (the broken off branch) have been sown in among us...as we come so do they...when the melo ha'goyim come in...as yet those not yet saved are still "lost sheep" of the House of Israel

Paul

ebedmelech said in post 127:

The millennium is NOW (Matthew 28:18)...Christ has ALL POWER right now.

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As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the first century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so that he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now in heaven ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend bodily from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to physically reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he's Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

ebedmelech said in post 127:

The millennium is NOW (Matthew 28:18)...Christ has ALL POWER right now.

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Note that there are at least 8 different scriptural reasons for reading the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, whereas currently he's walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there's no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but not until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

dfw69 said:

I thought the Jews had him killed because they knew his doctrine of fulfilling the law for man ... And many Jews believed his message but fell away when he died not thinking he would perish being there soon future king... The establishment felt he would alter their way of life ... That Jews would not have to keep the law anymore... Which would end Judaism ... If Jews were to stop keeping the law because the new covenant was here replacing the old covenant... This was a dangerous teaching and had to be dealt with...

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The Jews don't believe Christianity because they don't believe that the resurrection took place. The early Jews were told by the pharisees that the Roman guards were bought off by Jesus's followers and the followers of Jesus removed the body. So the Jews as a group didn't believe the testimony of the apostles. Blinded because they had a desire not to believe it.

Modern Jews argue that Jesus didn't appear to anyone - except them who claimed to be his followers - so again it comes down to not believing the resurrection happened.

Jewish countermissionaries use the old testament passage that God is not a man (that he should lie) as a mainstay to there rejection of Jesus and the Trinity - because they don't realize that the Lord of heaven entered this world to be second man. The second man is the only begotten Son of God - who is not of the old man's (the first man Adam's) seed which that old testament passage actually refers to that God is not a man.


Doug

well put Doug, very good

They did have their denial of the resurrection, but they also had denial of what it meant. It showed the promises to David were transfered to Christ, Acts 13. I don't think they accepted that either.

Douggg said:

The Jews don't believe Christianity because they don't believe that the resurrection took place. The early Jews were told by the pharisees that the Roman guards were bought off by Jesus's followers and the followers of Jesus removed the body. So the Jews as a group didn't believe the testimony of the apostles. Blinded because they had a desire not to believe it.

Modern Jews argue that Jesus didn't appear to anyone - except them who claimed to be his followers - so again it comes down to not believing the resurrection happened.

Jewish countermissionaries use the old testament passage that God is not a man (that he should lie) as a mainstay to there rejection of Jesus and the Trinity - because they don't realize that the Lord of heaven entered this world to be second man. The second man is the only begotten Son of God - who is not of the old man's (the first man Adam's) seed which that old testament passage actually refers to that God is not a man.


Doug

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Thanks

Why do you think they killed him or had him killed?

dfw69 said:

No contradiction .. I said the law judges those under the law who sin against the law...but For Gentiles who sin against the law written in their hearts are judge by that law written in their hearts.... That law being Christ law or the laws of the New Testament ...

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Do you understand this is only the Ten Commandments? This doesn't include the cermonial law which the feasts, and offerings fall under..they are laws of ceremony. So indeed there is a contradiction. Even more, hold to the context...because it make the point of WHO does the judging

dfw69 said:

Don't forget Peter who says The Lord is not slack concerning his promises... Not willing any should perish but all come to repentance... Yes god love the world .. And he sent his son to testify of the works therein are evil...so he seeks repentance.... But a day comes when wrath is poured upon the world ... But those that repent to serve Christ is not appointed to that wrath to come

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This is true...but then again it makes the point that I've been making about 1000 years...how long ago did Peter write that?

dfw69 said:

That's why Christ says love not the world ... Satan is the prince of this world now

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No. Don't take it farther than the passage says...Christ called Satan "the prince of this world...but what else did He say...and why did you leave it off?

Here's the rest of the verse..."And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

What about that?

dfw69 said:

Not me ... The word says satan is ruler of this world

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So what are you here for? Let me point out the role of the church to you...Ephesians 3:10:
10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

So once again...as I said, you give Satan too much credit!

dfw69 said:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out
.
John 14:30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged

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One word to you...CONTEXT. Read all of these passages...you might get the point.

dfw69 said:

I don't know ... Why do you think god only used apostles?

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Becuase God got the glory though the power that He gave them to confirm that Jesus sent them to proclaim the New Covenant.

Also keep in mind what the Lord said..."And evil and adulterous generation seeks as sign. Another time He said "Except you see signs and wonders, you will not believe."

dfw69 said:

It is messianic ... If it were not for the messiah ... It would not have been possible

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No...messianic prophecies spoke to the coming of Messiah. You really ought to check into the term.

dfw69 said:

Not the world.... Yet... Satan is ... If Jesus was reigning the world now then he would be responsible for all the evils committed throughout history on earth...

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If Jesus isn't ruling and reigning...how is it you are saved?

dfw69 said:

You know something I don't?... Don't hold out on me .. please share

I said Jesus comes to my olives and Israel receives him as king ... But you say no?

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Indeed. How many time does scripture say Jew and Gentile believers are ONE in Christ? Yet you want to insist they are two. Now read carefully what Paul says in Romans 9...especially when he quote Hosea and Isaiah.

dfw69 said:

You and I will not get the chance to ask him any questions on earth....because you and I will not get the chance to see Christ return anytime soon...

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I don't know about that for sure...we have eternity to learn God

dfw69 said:

A false messiah may come first but not Jesus ... That's the reason were must understand prophecy correctly ... So we will not be deceived when someone says Jesus is here...a deception takes place first and a falling away from the faith

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How many false messiahs has there been...and will be? Y=That's just a bad reading of scripture!

dfw69 said:

Thanks

Why do you think they killed him or had him killed?

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They were unwittingly carrying out Satan's defense of his earthly dominion.

Satan was thinking that the kingdom of God was at hand, the messiah, the great promised King of Israel, he knew was Jesus; which for Satan to stop that from taking place, necessitated that the King of the kingdom of God, Jesus, be killed aforehand. That's also why Satan sought to have Jesus kill himself in the temptation in the wilderness.

It was the biggest blunder Satan could have made for his part in the crucifixion. God made Satan look foolish in the process, because Jesus's death on the cross, freed mankind from the power of sin. Which God can now justly proceed with the prosecution and demise of Satan, without destroying all of mankind as well, for all are guilty of sin. But Jesus's death made it possible for us to be declared, not guilty. Praise God forever for that.

1Corinthians2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Douggg said:

They were unwittingly carrying out Satan's defense of his earthly dominion.

Satan was thinking that the kingdom of God was at hand, the messiah, the great promised King of Israel, he knew was Jesus; which for Satan to stop that from taking place, necessitated that the King of the kingdom of God, Jesus, be killed aforehand. That's also why Satan sought to have Jesus kill himself in the temptation in the wilderness.

It was the biggest blunder Satan could have made for his part in the crucifixion. God made Satan look foolish in the process, because Jesus's death on the cross, freed mankind from the power of sin. Which God could proceed with the prosecution of Satan, without destroying all of mankind as well, for all are guilty of sin.

1Corinthians2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

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True

But what were the Pharisee and Sadducees and even the high priest thinking that this man should be put to death by the law... Did the law condemn him falsely?

ebedmelech said:

Do you understand this is only the Ten Commandments? This doesn't include the cermonial law which the feasts, and offerings fall under..they are laws of ceremony. So indeed there is a contradiction. Even more, hold to the context...because it make the point of WHO does the judging


This is true...but then again it makes the point that I've been making about 1000 years...how long ago did Peter write that?

No. Don't take it farther than the passage says...Christ called Satan "the prince of this world...but what else did He say...and why did you leave it off?

Here's the rest of the verse..."And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

What about that?

So what are you here for? Let me point out the role of the church to you...Ephesians 3:10:
10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

So once again...as I said, you give Satan too much credit!

One word to you...CONTEXT. Read all of these passages...you might get the point.


Becuase God got the glory though the power that He gave them to confirm that Jesus sent them to proclaim the New Covenant.

Also keep in mind what the Lord said..."And evil and adulterous generation seeks as sign. Another time He said "Except you see signs and wonders, you will not believe."

No...messianic prophecies spoke to the coming of Messiah. You really ought to check into the term.

If Jesus isn't ruling and reigning...how is it you are saved?


Indeed. How many time does scripture say Jew and Gentile believers are ONE in Christ? Yet you want to insist they are two. Now read carefully what Paul says in Romans 9...especially when he quote Hosea and Isaiah.

I don't know about that for sure...we have eternity to learn God

How many false messiahs has there been...and will be? Y=That's just a bad reading of scripture!

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I'll let you have it ... I forgot what we were debating about..