Fullness of the Gentiles

coraline · Nov 17, 2013

dfw,

How do you know you have the Holy Spirit if I may ask?..

You don't know?
Well, it's because God's word says we do.

1Cor.6:
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are Gods.

dfw69 · Nov 17, 2013

coraline said:
dfw,

You don't know?
Well, it's because God's word says we do.

1Cor.6:
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are Gods.

I do know... I was wondering how you know you have the Spirit?..

ebedmelech · Nov 17, 2013

dfw69 said:
In us only who believe ... The law still has power on sinners... It even says somewhere that those that sin under the law shall be judge by the law

Romans 2:12

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

So the law is not abolished for sinners who put themselves under the law and break them

You should have read a little further...because just as I said the law is written of their heart. Now...this is all of what it says:
Romans 2:12-15
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

So contrary to what you're saying, the law is written on the heart of everyone and they will have no excuse for that reason.

dfw69 said:
Why do you think he calls us out of the world ?... Because satan is the ruler of this world... He will take it back one day

No. For the very reason we are told...John 3:16, Ephesians 2:4, 5.

dfw69 said:
Yep... Because the world is evil and satan is the prince of this world... That will change in the future... And the kingdoms of this world will belong to Christ

The main point is we are here as witnesses of His grace and mercy to those who are lost in their sin...you give Satan too much credit.

dfw69 said:
Ok .. But I don't know what that had to do with this topic

You asked me what I meant by lost.

dfw69 said:
Yes ..redemption is still to come

Yet we're told we're redeemed too...so the point is we are redeemed in our spirit but not in our body...remember Romans 8:23?

dfw69 said:
And now?..... Know anyone raising the dead and casting out devils?... Know any apostles?... Know any prophets?...we pray and god answers prayers but the gifts are few in us .. We have little strength for now but we don't deny his name

This you need to figure. Why do you think God used only the apostles?

dfw69 said:
Don't forget fulfill messianic prophecies... Reign 1000 years in Jerusalem rule the world.. Build his temple .. Create world peace... End war and weapons of war ... Rebuilt the cities of Israel enlarge Israel's borders.. Protect Israel and on and on

This is something I'll leave with you...we've been there before.

dfw69 said:
This is spoken of in the Old Testament as well being a messianic prophecy

Is 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

What? An Old Testament prophecy not fulfilled?

No...that is eternity, and it is not messianic. Jesus returns the reign to God and eternity begins.

dfw69 said:
I'm guessing That there is a new earth?... Regardless it's still the earth just Renovated ... But Jesus comes 1000 years before the new heaven and new earth

Don't bank on it...Jesus is reigning right now.

dfw69 said:
... Yep on mt olives to be sent to Israel as he said .. You will not see me again until??? So Israel will see him again and receive him as king

You'll see how it works.

dfw69 said:
Established in us only ... Not the world.. But when he returns... That will change ...the world too will be under him

Nope...another huge misnomer. Jesus has no desire to reign over those who don't want Him...but this too you'll find out. Jesus is coming to judge. and when He does that...you can go ask Him about why He didn't reign a literal 1000 years.

dfw69 · Nov 17, 2013

ebedmelech said:
You should have read a little further...because just as I said the law is written of their heart. Now...this is all of what it says:
Romans 2:12-15
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

So contrary to what you're saying, the law is written on the heart of everyone and they will have no excuse for that reason.

No. For the very reason we are told...John 3:16, Ephesians 2:4, 5.

The main point is we are here as witnesses of His grace and mercy to those who are lost in their sin...you give Satan too much credit.

You asked me what I meant by lost.

Yet we're told we're redeemed too...so the point is we are redeemed in our spirit but not in our body...remember Romans 8:23?

This you need to figure. Why do you think God used only the apostles?

This is something I'll leave with you...we've been there before.

No...that is eternity, and it is not messianic. Jesus returns the reign to God and eternity begins.

Don't bank on it...Jesus is reigning right now.

You'll see how it works.

Nope...another huge misnomer. Jesus has no desire to reign over those who don't want Him...but this too you'll find out. Jesus is coming to judge. and when He does that...you can go ask Him about why He didn't reign a literal 1000 years.

I'll respond tomorrow ... My time has ended for now... Peace ebed

Bible2 · Nov 17, 2013

ebedmelech said in post 91:

Epehesians 1:22
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

Already done.

Ephesians 1:22's original Greek can be read as meaning that all things will have been put under Christ's feet by the time of the age to come (i.e. the new earth) in Ephesians 1:21c. For Ephesians 1:22a, like 1 Corinthians 15:27a, is simply a quotation from Psalms 8:6b, which was written in the past tense some thousand years before Christ's first coming. None of the verses mean that God the Father has already (today) put all things under Christ's feet physically, as he will do over the future time from Revelation 19:11 to Revelation 20:15. For "now we see not yet all things put under him" (Hebrews 2:8c), and Paul elsewhere refers to the future time "when all things shall be subdued unto him" (1 Corinthians 15:28), in the sense of physically subdued.

ebedmelech said in post 91:

You don't seem to get the fact that the kingdom that already exist, and that you are a member.

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Bible2 · Nov 17, 2013

dfw69 said in post 92:

I don't believe the old covenant is abolished yet...

On Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there's no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), whereas the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices (e.g. Leviticus 23:19), whereas the New Covenant replaced those with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, whereas those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:22-31).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (including the letter of the 10 commandments), written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8. The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), whereas the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8,9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any believers are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus will profit them nothing; they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

dfw69 said in post 92:

Jesus said not one jot or title will fail until all is fulfilled...

Matthew 5:17-18 means that Jesus came the first time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Christ's first coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53). Matthew 5:17-18 can't mean that Jesus came not to abolish the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for he did come to do that, on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19). Also, Matthew 5:17-18 can't mean that Jesus came to fulfill the letter of all the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, for he couldn't possibly have done that. For example, some of those commandments applied only to women after childbirth (Leviticus 12:4-8), or to wives suspected of adultery by their husbands (Numbers 5:19-31).

As the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-9), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with his own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow his disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).

Bible2 · Nov 17, 2013

parousia70 said in post 1:

The term "Fullness of the Gentiles" is oft equated with the notion of quantity, amount, or number count of Gentile believers, but does scripture support such a notion?

Yes.

Romans 11:25 doesn't have to say "until the fulness (pleroma) of the number of the Gentiles be come in" in order to mean that, just as, for example, Revelation 6:11 doesn't have to say "until the number of their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled (pleroo)", in order to mean that.

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

parousia70 · Nov 18, 2013

Bible2 said:
Yes.

Romans 11:25 doesn't have to say "until the fulness (pleroma) of the number of the Gentiles be come in" in order to mean that, just as, for example, Revelation 6:11 doesn't have to say "until the number of their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled (pleroo)", in order to mean that.

Except the context very clearly makes fulness the opposite of fall and failure:

Rom 11:12

12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

Context matters.

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved,

Not according to the context. Fulness is the OPPOSITE of Fall.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Sounds like you are saying Israel and the Church are one?

parousia70 · Nov 18, 2013

Bible2 said:
After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

You forgot to mention that in your scenario, Jesus will require human beings at that time to render blood animal sacrifices directly to Him for Atonement of their sins, since His Cross sacrifice will be at that time no longer effectual for Atonement.

I understand why you would leave that little snippet out though. That is a tough one to reconcile with apostolic teaching that Christ's cross sacrifice is "once for all".

dfw69 · Nov 18, 2013

ebedmelech said:
You should have read a little further...because just as I said the law is written of their heart. Now...this is all of what it says:
Romans 2:12-15
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

So contrary to what you're saying, the law is written on the heart of everyone and they will have no excuse for that reason.

No contradiction .. I said the law judges those under the law who sin against the law...but For Gentiles who sin against the law written in their hearts are judge by that law written in their hearts.... That law being Christ law or the laws of the New Testament ...

No. For the very reason we are told...John 3:16, Ephesians 2:4, 5.

Don't forget Peter who says The Lord is not slack concerning his promises... Not willing any should perish but all come to repentance... Yes god love the world .. And he sent his son to testify of the works therein are evil...so he seeks repentance.... But a day comes when wrath is poured upon the world ... But those that repent to serve Christ is not appointed to that wrath to come

That's why Christ says love not the world ... Satan is the prince of this world now

The main point is we are here as witnesses of His grace and mercy to those who are lost in their sin...you give Satan too much credit.

Not me ... The word says satan is ruler of this world

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out
.
John 14:30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged

This you need to figure. Why do you think God used only the apostles?

I don't know ... Why do you think god only used apostles?

No...that is eternity, and it is not messianic. Jesus returns the reign to God and eternity begins.

It is messianic ... If it were not for the messiah ... It would not have been possible

Don't bank on it...Jesus is reigning right now.

Not the world.... Yet... Satan is ... If Jesus was reigning the world now then he would be responsible for all the evils committed throughout history on earth...

You'll see how it works.

You know something I don't?... Don't hold out on me .. please share

I said Jesus comes to my olives and Israel receives him as king ... But you say no?

Nope...another huge misnomer. Jesus has no desire to reign over those who don't want Him...but this too you'll find out. Jesus is coming to judge. and when He does that...you can go ask Him about why He didn't reign a literal 1000 years.

You and I will not get the chance to ask him any questions on earth....because you and I will not get the chance to see Christ return anytime soon...

A false messiah may come first but not Jesus ... That's the reason were must understand prophecy correctly ... So we will not be deceived when someone says Jesus is here...a deception takes place first and a falling away from the faith

parousia70 · Nov 18, 2013

dfw69 said:
Not me ... The word says satan is ruler of this world

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out

What did Jesus mean by "Now"?

dfw69 · Nov 18, 2013

parousia70 said:
What did Jesus mean by "Now"?

It does not mean what you think it means

Jesus is yet to cast down satan and rule the world

parousia70 · Nov 18, 2013

dfw69 said:
It does not mean what you think it means

What does it mean then?
What did Jesus mean by "Now"?

coraline · Nov 18, 2013

dfw69 said:
I do know... I was wondering how you know you have the Spirit?..

If that is not the generic "you, " then you must be questioning my personal salvation as a born-again Christian?

That's against forum rules.

I have been nice, but next time I shall report you.

Such extreme implications aren't worth it, friend!

Self-control is a fruit of that Holy Spirit. (Gal.5:23)

dfw69 · Nov 18, 2013

parousia70 said:
What does it mean then?
What did Jesus mean by "Now"?

It means Jesus is about to go to the cross and receive all power ...

Yet satan fall from our heaven is yet to happen

parousia70 · Nov 18, 2013

dfw69 said:
It means Jesus is about to go to the cross and receive all power ...

Wait a minute... you are saying He received "ALL Power"? at the cross?

If you claim He received "all power" at the cross, How is He not ruling today?

dfw69 · Nov 18, 2013

parousia70 said:
Wait a minute... you are saying He received "ALL Power"? at the cross?

If you claim He received "all power" at the cross, How is He not ruling today?

You can receive all power from god but not exercise that authority until an appointed time for whatever purpose you choose to do so

parousia70 · Nov 18, 2013

dfw69 said:
You can receive all power from god but not exercise that authority until an appointed time for whatever purpose you choose to do so

Ok, so what power over believers does Satan currently have then?

dfw69 · Nov 18, 2013

PHP:

parousia70 said:
Ok, so what power over believers does Satan currently have then?

As long as he rules the world ... All the perils of the world .. Gov laws regulations false doctrines false teachings lies persecutions wars injustices the list goes on and on

dfw69 · Nov 18, 2013

Drugs available poverty high cost of living some prostitute to survive ...the world is crying .. Children stolen lost in human trafficking ... Sons lost to drugs... Abortions ..rape murders instability ...death .. Famines

It's a horrible world we live in

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