Full Preterism-Where is the scriptural evidence?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 5, 2005

Hidden Manna said:
ACCORDING TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING these things have not happened because you believe that they will happen literially and physically, however what has happened in the spiritual realm you have failed to see with the eyes of understanding.

Even according to a futuristic view such as you have, you say all sin and wicked people will be dealt with and cease to sin however Isaiah 65:20 speaking of the new heaven and earth has sinner being accursed and in Rev.21 it mentions dogs, murders. liars, etc. etc. are outside of the gates to the city.

You can failed to understand the poetic language the prophets used to describe spiritual things while you wait and wait for literal physical manifestations and signs and wonders.

-Would you point me to a place where I said there would be no people who sinned in the millennial reign? I do not believe that! and to my knowledge have never said such a thing at any time and believe you have misrepresented what I have said!
Those who enter the millennial Sabbath as the Blessed of the LORD will have children who must be born from above just like all in Adam must be, now -and that, I have said! Those Blessed of the LORD are born from above with the same eternal life that we have at this time -but God has no grandchildren and all born in Adam, of his seed, must be born from above to be sons of God in Spirit, to be regenerated in body, which is the 'goal' taught in the law.

"The sinner shall die an hundred years old"

I have failed nothing. Nimrod was the first spiritual seed of the wicked after the flood; even Ham was not of that wicked, though cursed.

No one on earth will be a child of the devil a 'born wicked spiritual son of the devil' in the Millennial reign, for the thousand years Sabbath; but the seed of Adam will continue through those who enter the reign unregenerated in body but born from above in Spirit, Believers, and they are the 'Blessed of YHWH' who enter into the millennial reign to populate it for the thousand years with the seed of Adam that is in them; and which seed will be in all who are unregenerated in body, though born again in Spirit, until the eighth day of creation, in which eighth day all seed of Adam will be cut off totally, forever.

Circumcision is the sign of the complete cutting off of the seed of Adam in the eighth day =the first day of the New Beginning in the regenerated heavens and earth.

It's all in the living oracles given to the nation that bears His name -and the oracles were given, beginning with Abra H am, the Father of the nation raised to be 'signs' to the world, from Jacob.

Not all in Adam are children of the devil: one has to be born a child of the devil in spirit as well as one must be born a child of God in Spirit to be a child of God.

In Adam all die, and all who are unregenerated and are resurrected in Adam will be cast aways in the lake of fire, but they will have thier own place there, each according to their deeds done in their body while they lived in it on this earth in their being.

But in Adam all are not born in the devil as his spiritual children by receving his lies and acting upon them; and all in Adam are not born in Christ as sons of God in Him by believing in His name, repenting of their sins and calling upon Him for Salvation, either.

The 'wicked generation' will not exist on this earth in the millennium, and they are those brethren in the wicked one who have become children of the devil by receiving his lies into their hearts and acting upon them in this life, and they are also those literal seed of fallen angels and the fallen angels who fathered them, who are 'brought forth' 'paraded out' for the day of destruction, as Job says will happen.

The literal 'seed' of those fallen angels were never written in the book of Life to come into their being in Adam, as sons of God; and in that book of Life, only, were all those 'in Adam', written down to come into being before the foundation of the world, to have Adam being as sons of God. -But the Adam being is dead, as son of God and must be born from above in the Spirit of the New Man, to be sons of God in Him.

All who are blotted out of that book who were written there 'in Adam' will join the devil in the lake of fire, but that lake of fire has differing degrees of rewards and lower levels of eternal torment, just as the eternal rewards of the righteous are differing in degrees, based upon their motives for service to the LORD after they are born into His family in Christ -even a cup of cold water given in His name will not lose a reward, Jesus says.

Notice that at the end of the millennium the devil will be released and go out to deceive the nations and those who join him will come against the Holy City and the throne in heaven, also, and at that time, the universe will be collapsed by the Creator; the elements will be melted, being on fire, burning with fervent heat, and a new heavens and a new earth formed from the same elements, in which there will be no death, no seed of Adam, only sons of God in Christ.

All who are 'out' (= 'away', not 'in') of the city, are 'out' of the New Man (for the city is the completed "Israel" house that He is building for His habitation, those born from above in Christ, representing the Holy of Holies of the eternal dwelling of the glory of YHWH's Presence), and are 'in Adam', 'in the lake of fire', which 'is' the second death, where there is no light of Christ, only the blackness of darkness forever, and where Jesus said they will be in the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, in that outer darkness, where the Holy Spirit is not 'hovering' and there is no Light -forever.

There will never come into the New Heavens and the New earth any thing that defiles, for God and the Lamb are the temple of that New Creation, and nothing will be 'in' His Light, nor come out of that darkness of the lake of fire, forever.

Rom 3:1,2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 5, 2005

stumpjumper said:
Yes very true.

Paul says that we are "to dress ourselves in Christ." I compare that to the Parable of The Wedding Feast when the king sent out invitations to the select guests and when they turned down the invitation, he sent his messengers out to invite all. One came who was not in the proper attire:

Matthew 22
"But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?

We are to dress like Christ and wear the proper garment or be transformed into his likeness.

To be in the wedding garment is to be in the regenerated body.
First, we receive the promise of the Spirit, given to Abra "H" am, but Abraham could not go to heaven on high until the Lamb was sacrificed and became the atonement, and descended and led captivity captive when He ascended on First of Firstfruits.

When the Creator created Adam, He "laqach" a rib from his side and formed his bride and brought her to him as 'bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh'.

When the YHWH shall "laqach" the Curch, He will bring the 'bride' to Israel, the New Man (YHWH of hosts who is come in fully human flesh is the New Man, the 'Israel' of God, the brother to Adam and Adam's Kinsman-Redeemer), which bride is to be 'bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh', regenerated from the dead Adam elements by the dissolving and reforming of them which is made possible by the blood that flowed from the side of the Salvation of YHWH, the New Man in flesh.

The regenerated Spirit will allow us access in Spirit, only, into the Holy of Holies in heaven; but to enter the true heavenly Holy of Holies to remain there, we must be in our regenerated bodies, which are typed and shadowed in the oracles of the holy garments that the priests were to put on, before they entered to minister before the LORD in the temple.
They left the garments in the temple, lest they defile them in this world, and we must put on the wedding garment which is the body in the likeness and image of the New Man, which body will be glorified in total being, body, soul, and Spirit, in the regeneration of the body.

"I shall be satisfied when I awake in Thy image"
these things are all taught in the living oracles, which preterism has never learned or been taught of the Holy Spirit about, and they need to learn the first principles of.
Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

In the regeneration of the heavens and the earth, there will be no more wicked; the millennial reign of Peace is a foreshadowing of the eternal regenerated heavens and earth:
Pro 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
Pro 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
Those who inherit this earth in the Firstborn will remain in it forever, in the regeneration of it.

FreezBee · Dec 5, 2005

Hidden Manna said:
The Old Testament idea of the “day of the Lord” was that God acted by means of armies or a nation to judge His enemies (Luke 11:29-32, 19:43-44). The “day of the Lord” was tumultuous, frightening, and awesome—but God did NOT appear visibly. Only the God of Israel could ride the clouds of heaven in judgment (Psa. 104:1-3. Isa. 19:1-3. Joel 2:1-2, Nah. 1-3. Zeph. 1:14-15). This fact was well known to every Jew.

Oh, first a minor detail: all this "riding on the clouds" stuff is interesting. We can trace it back to bronze age Phoenicia. Baal Hadad was called "the Rider of the Clouds", an appropriate name for a thunder god!

The new growth season started with rain storms in late autumn. In the literature this is described as Baal's battle against Prince Yam ("Sea") and Judge Nahar ("River"). The raindrops being the arrows of Baal, and Yam striking back with the waves of the sea. The small rivers were dry outside of the rain season, but of course filled with water now - this water released by Baal from the imprisonment by Nahar.

Much of this scenario were copied by the Israelites and later went into Christian talk. It's all allegory, and should be interpreted accordingly.

Then, this is a GREAT thread. I actually came here to ask for some information about preterism, and here it all is! Now, I believe in miracles

- FreezBee

Hidden Manna · Dec 5, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
-Would you point me to a place where I said there would be no people who sinned in the millennial reign? I do not believe that! and to my knowledge have never said such a thing at any time and believe you have misrepresented what I have said!
Those who enter the millennial Sabbath as the Blessed of the LORD will have children who must be born from above just like all in Adam must be, now -and that, I have said! Those Blessed of the LORD are born from above with the same eternal life that we have at this time -but God has no grandchildren and all born in Adam, of his seed, must be born from above to be sons of God in Spirit, to be regenerated in body, which is the 'goal' taught in the law.

"The sinner shall die an hundred years old"

I have failed nothing. Nimrod was the first spiritual seed of the wicked after the flood; even Ham was not of that wicked, though cursed.

No one on earth will be a child of the devil a 'born wicked spiritual son of the devil' in the Millennial reign, for the thousand years Sabbath; but the seed of Adam will continue through those who enter the reign unregenerated in body but born from above in Spirit, Believers, and they are the 'Blessed of YHWH' who enter into the millennial reign to populate it for the thousand years with the seed of Adam that is in them; and which seed will be in all who are unregenerated in body, though born again in Spirit, until the eighth day of creation, in which eighth day all seed of Adam will be cut off totally, forever.

Circumcision is the sign of the complete cutting off of the seed of Adam in the eighth day =the first day of the New Beginning in the regenerated heavens and earth.

It's all in the living oracles given to the nation that bears His name -and the oracles were given, beginning with Abra H am, the Father of the nation raised to be 'signs' to the world, from Jacob.

Not all in Adam are children of the devil: one has to be born a child of the devil in spirit as well as one must be born a child of God in Spirit to be a child of God.

In Adam all die, and all who are unregenerated and are resurrected in Adam will be cast aways in the lake of fire, but they will have thier own place there, each according to their deeds done in their body while they lived in it on this earth in their being.

But in Adam all are not born in the devil as his spiritual children by receving his lies and acting upon them; and all in Adam are not born in Christ as sons of God in Him by believing in His name, repenting of their sins and calling upon Him for Salvation, either.

The 'wicked generation' will not exist on this earth in the millennium, and they are those brethren in the wicked one who have become children of the devil by receiving his lies into their hearts and acting upon them in this life, and they are also those literal seed of fallen angels and the fallen angels who fathered them, who are 'brought forth' 'paraded out' for the day of destruction, as Job says will happen.

The literal 'seed' of those fallen angels were never written in the book of Life to come into their being in Adam, as sons of God; and in that book of Life, only, were all those 'in Adam', written down to come into being before the foundation of the world, to have Adam being as sons of God. -But the Adam being is dead, as son of God and must be born from above in the Spirit of the New Man, to be sons of God in Him.

All who are blotted out of that book who were written there 'in Adam' will join the devil in the lake of fire, but that lake of fire has differing degrees of rewards and lower levels of eternal torment, just as the eternal rewards of the righteous are differing in degrees, based upon their motives for service to the LORD after they are born into His family in Christ -even a cup of cold water given in His name will not lose a reward, Jesus says.

Notice that at the end of the millennium the devil will be released and go out to deceive the nations and those who join him will come against the Holy City and the throne in heaven, also, and at that time, the universe will be collapsed by the Creator; the elements will be melted, being on fire, burning with fervent heat, and a new heavens and a new earth formed from the same elements, in which there will be no death, no seed of Adam, only sons of God in Christ.

All who are 'out' (= 'away', not 'in') of the city, are 'out' of the New Man (for the city is the completed "Israel" house that He is building for His habitation, those born from above in Christ, representing the Holy of Holies of the eternal dwelling of the glory of YHWH's Presence), and are 'in Adam', 'in the lake of fire', which 'is' the second death, where there is no light of Christ, only the blackness of darkness forever, and where Jesus said they will be in the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, in that outer darkness, where the Holy Spirit is not 'hovering' and there is no Light -forever.

There will never come into the New Heavens and the New earth any thing that defiles, for God and the Lamb are the temple of that New Creation, and nothing will be 'in' His Light, nor come out of that darkness of the lake of fire, forever.

Rom 3:1,2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The Biblical Last Days.

To understand out study of the last days and show how it could be possible, they were fulfilled in the last days of the Old Covenant there are three very important Biblical truths that must be established. First, the years from the cross to the desolation of Jewish system in Jerusalem in the A.D. 70 is the last days of the covenant of the law. It is stated time and again that the New Testament was written in the final years of the world that then was, otherwise known as the Old Covenant or Old Testament era (Heb. 1:2). This is the period of the last days, or end of the age, which saw its fulfillment.

By presenting Scripture in such a way, as to allow it to speak for itself, we will see that the New Testament is a collection of books written in the last days of the Old Covenant, all of which display the earnest expectation of the believers that the last days would be in their lifetimes.

Second, The faithfulness of God. Remember, God is faithful, II Peter 3:9. God is not a man that he should lie, Numbers 23:19. The faithfulness of God not only involves doing WHAT has been promised, it means doing it WHEN IT WAS PROMISED

Third, The time statements in the Bible. In Daniel 10-12 is a vision encompassing a period of time from 536 BC to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD; about 600 years. Two times in this text Daniel was told the appointed time is long and the vision refers to many days to come (10:1,14). Remember, this vision was relayed to Daniel from God. While God is not bound by time, he was communicating to man who is bound to time. God called this 600 year period of time long; he said it involved many days. God can most assuredly tell time and read a calendar!

Before we begin our study on the last days let me first say that while God is not bound by time like man when God speaks to man He speaks in a language that man can understand, thus when something is said to happens soon in mans time God is recognized as faithful and true to His promise when it is fulfilled. God gives us an illustrations of His true faithfulness in the event of the birth of Isaac. Isaac was born at the set time of which God promised Abraham (see Genesis 18:13-14; 21:1-3)

The Bible says it is inspired, II Timothy 3:16. The original word translated inspired literally means God breathed. The thought of the Bible being from God suggests that since God is perfect or infallible, and the Bible is from Him it ought to be infallible as well. Specifically, if the Bible made a promise that something would happen within a specified time frame, if that event did not happen when and as promised the Bibles claim to inspiration falls.

It is Jehovah himself that gave the criteria for determining whether a prophet was true or false; if a prophets prediction did not come true (within the time the prophet said it would) he was a false prophet, (see Deuteronomy 18:19-22) If God does not keep the when part of his promises, he has not kept his promise! The inspiration of the scriptures demands complete fulfillment of every aspect of Gods promises.

Gods years are endless; from everlasting to everlasting thou art God Psalms 90:2. Isaiah calls Jehovah the Father of eternity 9:6-9. However when God communicate with man, he uses (time statements) that man can understand. What are time statements?
The time statements are how God communicates with man in terms of Time. The time statements are literal imminent statements as seen in (Genesis 18:13-14; 21:1-3) The time statements refer to soon events of Jewish importance.

In Ezekiel 7, God through Ezekiel said the Day of the Lord was at hand. The Day of the Lord in this context was when God used Babylon to punish Israel for her sin. This is the concept of the Day of the Lord; it is not an end of time idea. It is when God used a nation to punish another as it related to his chosen people. In chapter 11 Israel responded to the threat of coming judgment. They insisted that although Ezekiel said it was at hand it was really not. It was time to build houses, not worry about judgment. One can almost hear some of those people: Well, yes, Ezekiel has said the Day of the Lord is at hand, but after all, one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day, Psalms 90:4

When Israel elasticized Gods words of imminence into relativity, ambiguity and meaning-less-ness, God responded. In Ezekiel 12:21ff, [Please, take the time to get your Bible and read it for yourself!] Adonai told Ezekiel to tell Israel that her days of changing the time for his predictions were over. He had said judgment was at hand; Israel said it was not at hand. Jehovah would not tolerate it.

Ezekiel was instructed to tell Israel that in that generation judgment would fall just as Jehovah had indicated when he said it was at hand. [Have you read those verses for yourself yet? If not, why not do it right now and see for yourself that what we are saying is true?] What we have then, is an example of man saying that while God had said something was imminent it really was not; it was for a long time off. We have Gods response; when God said at hand he meant at hand! He did not mean hundreds or thousands of years; he meant soon! God, Himself rebukes this interpretation of His time statements. God employed the language of humanity to communicate His message in the Bible to humanity in humanitys own time statements.

Hidden Manna · Dec 5, 2005

Another example of man changing the meaning of Gods time words is in Amos. God warned Israel the time had come for her to be judged, 8:2-3. In spite of the warnings Israel put far off the evil day. In spite of Gods warning that judgment was at hand they insisted All things continue as they were, They refused to believe God meant the end has come. As a result God said Woe to them for putting of His words! 6:3. As we have just seen if God do not keep the when part of the time statements then He has not kept his promise! Jehovah would not tolerate this interpretation of His time statements. He rebukes it Himself in scripture.

Most honest students of the Bible already realize that the New Testament is full of time statements that point to an imminent last days of the Old Covenant. Once Scripture is allowed to speak for itself, one cannot honestly deny the overwhelming amount of Scripture passages which declare that the last day prophecies were to shortly come to pass. By listing these numerous verses, we can see that the first century saints believed they were living in the last days of the Old Covenant. Peter specifies. Who (Christ) verily was fore ordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. (1 Peter 1:20)

The apostle John made a similar statement: 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. Here, the same word eschatos is used for last. However, the Greek word for time is slightly different, though very related: it is the Greek word hora defined by Strongs as: 5610. hora, ho-rah; appar. a prim. word; an hour (lit. or fig.):--day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

John believed they were in the last or farthest season or hour of the Jewish age.

Peter specifies the range of this period, commonly called the last days, in his sermon in Acts 2:16-21. He declares that, it was fulfilling the prophecy of (Joel 2:28-32). What is significant about Peters statement is that he was claiming that they were in the last days. The writer of Hebrews expressed this identical sentiment as he began his discourse comparing the fading Old Covenant with the Everlasting New Covenant:

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, {2} Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Jesus was manifested, not at the beginning, or start of the last days but during the last days. The period between A.D. 30 and 70 is, as the apostle Peter describes it, these last times (1 Peter 1:20).

Hath in these last days the writer confirms. Without any speculation those in the first century believed they were in the last days. Certainly the writers of the New Testament were very aware of those passages we have studied involving the last days of Judah and Jerusalem. Therefore it is safe and logical to say that the New Testament writers believed that they were in the last days of the Jewish age.

The apostle John made this time statement: 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. Here, the same word eschatos is used for last. However, the Greek word for time is slightly different, though very related: it is the Greek word hora defined by Strongs as: 5610. hora, ho-rah; appar. a prim. word; an hour (lit. or fig.):--day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

John believed they were in the last or farthest season or hour of the Jewish age. Paul believed the same:

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. There are two different Greek words used here translated as time. In the first cause Paul says knowing the time. The Greek word here is 2540. kairos, kahee-ros; of uncert. affin.; an occasion, i.e. set or proper time:--X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Comp. G5550. Strongs.

In the second clause Paul uses the phrase high time. High time is the same Greek word used in first John. Both Paul and John firmly believed that they were in the last time or days of the Jewish age. Paul believed they were living in the end of the Jewish age as well: 1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the age are come.

Paul was describing the history of the Jews and their rebellion against God in the wilderness. We should not ignore the fact that Paul, in discussing the ancient rebellion which took place in the wilderness says it was written for their admonition, upon whom the ends of the age are come.

New consider the time statements of James as he addressed the unbelieving Jews: James 5:1-4 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth eaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Clearly James taught that these men were in the last days.

Jude, in describing the same group of unbelieving Jews, also speaks of this period, although with a different phrase: But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. (Jude 1:17-18)

The word time is the Greek word chronos, defined by Strongs Exhaustive Concordance as: 5550. chronos, khron-os; a space of time. The word last is defined as: 2078. eschatos, es-khat-os; a superl. prob. from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time):--ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost. Certainly we can conclude from Jude that they were in the farthest or uttermost space of time of the Jewish age. They were in the last days of the Jewish state.

The impression of the Apostles is the nearness of the end is worthy of notice that there is a marked gradation in the language of the different epistles. Going from know that in the last days perilous times will come To the last times and the last times became the last days, and the last days become the last hour [escath wra esti]. The period of expectation and delay was now over and the decisive moment was at hand. And that, knowing the time.. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. (Romans 13:11-12)

There are many other passages that could be used to support the fact that the first-century believers and particularly the apostles believed unanimously that they were in the end of the Jewish age or the last days of the Jewish age. The fact is that anytime Scripture uses the phase last days it means, a period from 30-70 AD. This was the period during which the Apostles were preaching and writing, the last days of Old Covenant Israel before it was forever destroyed in the destruction of the Temple (and the Old Covenant sacrificial system) not the end of the world or physical universe.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 6, 2005

Hidden Manna said:
Another example of man changing the meaning of Gods time words ...
John believed they were in the last or farthest season or hour of the Jewish age.

...
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, {2} Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Jesus was manifested, not at the beginning, or start of the last days but during the last days. The period between A.D. 30 and 70 is, as the apostle Peter describes it, these last times (1 Peter 1:20).

Hath in these last days the writer confirms. Without any speculation those in the first century believed they were in the last days. Certainly the writers of the New Testament were very aware of those passages we have studied involving the last days of Judah and Jerusalem. Therefore it is safe and logical to say that the New Testament writers believed that they were in the last days of the Jewish age.

The apostle John made this time statement: 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. Here, the same word eschatos is used for last. However, the Greek word for time is slightly different, though very related: it is the Greek word hora defined by Strongs as: 5610. hora, ho-rah; appar. a prim. word; an hour (lit. or fig.):--day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

John believed they were in the last or farthest season or hour of the Jewish age. Paul believed the same: ...

You have added your own private interpretation to the above.
In no place does the Scriptures say the Jewish age was in it's last days! No place! Nada!

The Scriptures teach that this earth had a beginning of days, and will have an end of days: and then a new beginning of days begins when this present creation is melted with fervent heat, when the heavens are rolled up as a garment, and being on fire they melt: and the heavens and the earth will be regenerated from the same elements that were created in the beginning of days -in Genesis 1.

The Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ came in the last days of this present creation's days: in the fifth millennium, as the fifth 'day', and He came as the Living Spirit that is represented by the river of Life that flows from the throne of Ezekiel's temple -in the millennium- which river coming from the throne gets so deep after four thousand cubits that one cannot cross over.

It is in the fifth millinnium, the fifth thousand (as in the fifth 'day'), that He ended the spiritual death of our being by cleansing us with His blood of sprinkling upon His prepared New creation Human being body, while it hung upon the cross, which was the true altar of sacrifice represented in the temple Moses was given the plan for.

He brought Life to the dead in the fifth millennium, ending the death of separation from the Living Spirit that began the day Adam fell -and we are all fallen in Adam, in our 'being', and He adopted us who are born again, from that time of His resurrection from the dead, when He breathed on the disciples and said "Receive the Holy Spirit": and then, when He received from the Father the glory -that Adam lost- He sent that glory to dwell in we who are born from above -in a measure- until we receive our adoption bodies at the resurrection of the dead and the "laqach" =rapture, of the living -which is the harvest of the Gentiles that comes at the beginning of the last week of Daniel's weeks, that He saw that would be, until the Messiah reigns.

When the LORD Jesus tarried to go to raise Lazarus from the dead, He tarried as a prophet, for Lazarus' raising in the fifth day of his death (he was dead four days before the LORD raised him from death in his same body, unregenerated), was a sign of Jesus being the Resurrection and the Life.

He said, "I AM the resurrection and the Life"; Martha said "I know that he will be raised [in his physical person, in his body] in the last day" (=of this present creation, as promised, regenerated), but Jesus showed that spiritual death ended in the fifth day of this present creation, when He put away the sin of Adam that separated us from the Life, once, for all, by raising Lazarus in the fifth day -Lazarus means "He whom God helps".

God helped us all, who are in Adam, by sending the Lamb of God to be our atonement in the fifth Day of this present creation, to put away our separation from the Living Spirit and the Presence of His glory.

Israel was 'smitten' for their unbelief, as a nation, but in the third day =after two days, they will take words and return to the LORD, and He will raise them up, as He has promised. Hosea saw that.

Those two days end and the third day begins for the nation of Israel -which was smitten for unbelief- in the year 2069: if you take the Day of Pentecost (when He sent His Presence of glory to dwell in the Church), as the time to reckon from, then that two days ends in 2033, and Israel will be raised up again as the vineyard of YHWH, whose New Man human being name they bear as a sign of the adoption: and He will return, and He will dwell in their midst, reigning from restored Jerusalem over this present creation for the times of refreshing that He has promised for this earth -and promised to His own people, whom He called without repentence to be His people who bear His name and whom He glorifies with His presence, in Person.

The day can be on or around -and calendars are not accurate, that man keeps, anyway, but Israel is guaranteed to be raised up in -not exactly on the first day of- the third millinnium, as a day, since they were smitten as a nation.

Scripture teaches that the last day of this present creation will be a Sabbath of rest for this present creation, in which the Prince of Peace will reign from restored Jerusalem for the thousand year Sabbath rest, which is the "Times of refreshing" =the Sabbath of the days of earth- that Peter preached would be sent when He returns to this earth to reign and Jesus told the Jewish disciples, who asked if He would restore the kingdom to ISrael at the time of His ascension that the Father has put in His own hands the times and seasons -of that promise of restoration, but to preach the Gospel of the kingdom and to occupy till He comes was previously told them.

His kingdom is coming, His will shall be done on earth as it is in heaven, and we are to pray for the peace and the establishment of Jerusalem and for Jerusalem to be made a praise in this present earth -if we make mention of the LORD, that is, for He is returning to reign in the temple that He gave Ezekiel to write the plans of, that He will enter in Person as the glory of the LORD, to rule as High Priest and High King =the Firstborn, over this present creation from for the Sabbath Day of rest, the thousand year millennial kingdom..

"Soon" He is coming, and it is without remedy when it happens. "Now" is the day of salvation -tomorrow will be too late!

The Gospel is, that the kingdom is coming, the redemption is paid and the LORD who bought the brother's kingdom back is returning to take possession and will root out every tare, every wicked one, and cast them into the everlasting fire, and reign from His cleansed kingdom for a thousand year Sabbath, called the Day of the LORD.

If one will be in His kingdom and not a cast away, then they must be born from above, while He is calling His adopted sons to the table of the Father in His kingdom that He is coming to reign over.

The Last Day of this creation is a Sabbath of a thousand years, called the Day of the LORD.
We are in the last days of this present creation, and have been since the LORD came at the beginning of the fifth millinnium.
Soon, He will come and cleanse His kingdom of all the wicked, and reign for the Last Day of peace, on earth.

In the millennium, the temple will still be a type and teaching of what the LORD has done and will do for eternity.
Eze 47:5 Afterward he measured a thousand; [and it was] a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

Hidden Manna · Dec 6, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
You have added your own private interpretation to the above.
In no place does the Scriptures say the Jewish age was in it's last days! No place! Nada!

How Long is Long?

The question is often raised concerning why there is so much emphasis on the shortness or brevity of time in relation to the Lord's parousia or coming. Many are disturbed that those of us who teach the Lord's return in 70 A.D. cite several passages which state nearness, a little while, at hand, this generation, quickly and shortly to come to pass regarding the parousia of Christ (Matt. 10:23; 16:26,27; 24:32-34; Lk. 21:31-32; Rom. 13:ll-12; 16:20; 1 Cor. 7:26; 10:11; Phil. 4:5; Heb. 10:37; Jas. 5:8; 1 Pet. 4:5,7,17; 1 Jno. 2:18; Rev. 1:1-3; 22:6,10,12). It seems as though the Holy Spirit in such passages is "grieving" them.

Those who are disposed to oppose and complain feel that using all the above passages as well as others as supportive evidence of the imminent first-century return of Christ at the destruction of Jerusalem is just plain unfair and prejudiced exegesis. They assert that every time statement depicting the Lord's coming does not indicate nearness of that event from the first-century standpoint. By way of contrast to the numerous passages cited above a grand total of one, O-N-E scripture is usually presented in defense of a long period of "milleniums" occurring between the "going away" and "coming again" of Christ. The proof-text is Matthew 25:19 which reads, "After a long time the Lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them." To all familiar with Matthew 25, this text is taken from the parable of the talents.

As before stated, the purpose of raising this point is to discredit and nullify the arguments made from the scriptures on the first-century nearness and shortness of time of Christ's return. This "long time" reasoning however, squarely aligns one in conflict with scripture. It is acknowledged by many that the passages teach imminence but in the same breath many will assert that this one scripture reference of "long" time negates, cancels or otherwise modifies the whole multitude of scriptures which clearly teach the imminence of Christ's return. By what reasoning or logic such conclusions are drawn yet remains a mystery to this writer.

It seems manifest that the answer to such an apparent contradiction lies within the context of the chapter itself. The question to which this article is addressed is simply this: In the context of Matt. 25:19, how long is "long"? First,observe the parable's leading statement. "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods," (Matt. 25:14). The kingdom is likened to a man traveling. Now that statement alone is ground for pause especially with respect to time. Often one overlooks this fact perhaps because of preconceived notions about the remoteness of end-time events. Jesus, however, places the teaching of this parable in the realm or time frame of his earthly creatures. Remember, the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country.

Secondly, this man called his own servants and delivered unto them his goods. To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, according to their several ability (verse 15).

Third, two of these same servants traded and increased the profits of their master by one-hundred percent. The other, a wicked and slothful servant "dug in the earth and hid his lord's money." It is in connection with these events that it is said, "After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them." Observe, it is the same man or lord who traveled into the far country that returned to take account of those same servants to whom he had delivered his goods. This episode therefore, was during the lifetime of a man, of him and his servants in particular.

The parable does not teach per se, that a man is likened to the kingdom, but that the kingdom was likened to a MAN! The correct applications of the parable would therefore harmonize with what is true of a man. And one thing is absolutely certain, i.e., it is not true of a man that his lifetime extends over 2,000 years! Thus, to apply "after a long time the lord of those servants cometh...," to a period stretching two-thousand years and beyond is more "elasticity" than God has ever placed in the time of a man's life, Methuselah included! (See Gen. 5:27). To say the least, such reasoning is wild, weak and reckless exegesis perhaps motivated by the fear of losing ground on traditional "yet future" second coming theories.

Of a man's lifespan it is said, "...For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away" (Jas. 4:14). Little here is from "oligos," and means short, brief or small, (Bagster, page 286, 1977 edition). Viewing the significance of this point through the magnifying glass of reason it is clear that since a man's life is a short time or vapor, then the isolated events of his life are by contrast even shorter. Therefore, the "journey" of the man traveling into a far country and his subsequent return would be indeed short or small time-wise by comparison to the already short lifetime of the man. One must then understand "after a long time," as relative to the reckoning of time from a human standpoint or life span.

To a man whose days are threescore years and ten, [70 years], and if by reason of strength fourscore years [80 years], (Psa. 90:10), 37-40 years of that time (the Biblical time-frame for the restoration of all things and the parousia of Christ), is a long time. Concerning this "long time," it is half a life time in the latter case and over half a life span in the former. In the case of the profitable servants, it was a long time to work and serve the master before the reward was received. In the case of the wicked servant it was long enough time for him to become lax and unconcerned about serving his lord and may have even promoted an attitude which suggested, "My lord delayeth his coming," or raised the question, "Where is the promise of his coming?" Even Abraham, the father of faith in whose steps of faith all of his children (Christians) should walk collapsed under the pressure of time that seemed long delayed in the fulfillment of the promise concerning Isaac. It was only about 25 years from the time God promised to fulfillment but Abraham weakened in just over a decade and went in to Hagar. (Gen. chapters 12,17,21).

Surely, with our modernized high-tech society where everything is delivered to us in micro mili-seconds and "absolutely positively overnight," many of us would balk at the thought of having to wait 37-40 years to receive a promise, especially when it would mean intense suffering and severe persecution as that described in the New Testament. In this respect, such a period of a man's life could properly be styled a long time. But in view of the brevity of a man's life, this relative "long time" is but a little while.

In conclusion, the scriptural answer to the question, "How long is long"?, in Matthew 25:19 is not very long at all, actually less than forty years being part of a man's life span. It therefore harmonizes with all the other teachings and time statements of nearness and shortness regarding the Lord's parousia. Yes, this one, 0-N-E "long" argument on the question of the time of Christ's return still leaves one coming up just a bit short!

How in the world can something over 2,000 plus years be soon or near after looking in Daniel where he was told to seal the books for the time was a far off? If you add the years from Daniel all the way to Revelation, it will seem to add up between 500 to 600 years. So, how can a number that is 600 be far off and another number which is 2,000 plus more years added, as time goes by, while waiting for the return you are looking forward for, be near? It sounds totally impossible to me for something to be near when we have already gone way over 600 years, after the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, that was considered far off for Daniel. I hope that this gives you something to think about.

Revelations 22
The Time Is Near
6 Then he said to me, These words are faithful and true. And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
7Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.
10And he said to me, Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 6, 2005

Hidden Manna said:
QUOTE]

I had the very decided feeling that I am not replying to your own study of the Word of God on these matters, but that I am replying to another person's book that they have written, for the things I say are ignored, as to their Scriptural proofs, and there is no discussion between us on the matters, just long seeming quotes pasted from some preterism book.

I asked you before if that was the case, and I think you denied it, -did you not? But I checked this page of yours and find that you are not writing discussion that you have studied from the Bible, but from a preterist's book, after all, and that is plagarism, for you do not even give him credit.
Your page was taken from;
http://www.preteristarchive.addr.com/Preterism/bell-william_p_08.html
I consider you a dishonest person for not actually discussing the contents of my replies, but instead, just posting from preterist books -not from the Bible- but from twisted doctrines of men who do not accept the Bible as it is written.

But I do my own studies and I wrote this myself, below, on this forum, and have posted it to you, before, but the Scriptures were not discussed by you.

About a thousand years BC, nearly three thousand years ago, the Holy Spirit promised through David that "soon" -the wicked will be cut off from the earth and the righteous would inherit the earth and delight themselves in the abundance of Peace -the Sabbath of Rest for earth's thousands.

The Heritage of the Righteous and the Calamity of the Wicked
A Psalm of David.
Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

The context of Psalm 37 is about the same time that John delineates, that comes when Jesus Christ takes His great power and reigns in person from restored, delivered Jerusalem, over the entire earth for a thousand year Sabbath rest for this present Creation.

His Day was seen by John, and that Day is a thousand years, and that Day begins with the darkness of black night in which there is no brightness, as Amos 5:20 says,
"[Shall] not the day of the LORD [be] darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it"?; and that day begins with the brightness absent because the Church has been taken out of the way (which is the dwelling of the 'brightness' of God on earth, since Pentecost), and then the man of sin can be/will be revealed and have his 'hour' of power, before He is destroyed by the Brightness of the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ to reign on this earth for the Sabbath of a thousand years of Peace.

2 Thessalonians 2:8; "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming":
Jesus promises that He will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, when he comes like lightning on His throne of glory to reign over His purchased kingdom.

The Tares remaining who were not destroyed in the battle over Jerusalem at His coming (because they were not in the army of the man of sin), will be gathered together, by angels, from all the Gentile nations, and judged before Him on His throne of glory -and sent into the everlasting fire.
The earth will be utterly cleansed of all the wicked generation of the devil who remain alive on earth at His coming.
That is His promise.

Soon, the wicked generation shall be no more, and the righteous generation that keeps peace shall inherit the earth. John saw it all, in the book of Revelation:
PSALM 37
The Heritage of the Righteous and the Calamity of the Wicked
A Psalm of David.
Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.
...

7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him;
Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.
8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath;
Do not fret--it only causes harm.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

12 The wicked plots against the just,
And gnashes at him with his teeth.
13 The Lord laughs at him,
For He sees that his day is coming. (the day of destruction and darkness)
14 The wicked have drawn the sword
And have bent their bow,
To cast down the poor and needy,
To slay those who are of upright conduct.
15 Their sword shall enter their own heart,
And their bows shall be broken.
...18 The Lord knows the days of the upright,
And their inheritance shall be forever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
...
22 For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth,
But those cursed by Him shall be cut off.

27 Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell forevermore.
28 For the Lord loves justice,
And does not forsake His saints;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell in it forever.
...
32 The wicked watches the righteous,
And seeks to slay him.
33 The Lord will not leave him in his hand,
Nor condemn him when he is judged.

34 Wait on the Lord,
And keep His way,
And He shall exalt you to inherit the land;
When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.
35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
And spreading himself like a native green tree.
36 Yet *he passed away, and behold, he was no more;
Indeed I sought him, but he could not be found.

37 Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright;
For the future of that man is peace.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together;
The future of the wicked shall be cut off.

Those remaining alive at the coming of the LORD to reign on earth, who are His by coming into the New covenant in His blood will be called "the Blessed of the LORD", for they shall inherit the kingdom the Father prepared for them "from the foundation of the earth" (for His human sons, in Adam, at Creation the earth was "the kingdom prepared" -Adam lost it; the Last Adam redeemed it and His adopted sons will inherit it in Him, the New and only human Firstborn).

Hidden Manna · Dec 6, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
Hidden Manna said:

QUOTE]
The context of Psalm 37 is about the same time that John delineates, that comes when Jesus Christ takes His great power and reigns in person from restored, delivered Jerusalem, over the entire earth for a thousand year Sabbath rest for this present Creation.

His Day was seen by John, and that Day is a thousand years, and that Day begins with the darkness of black night in which there is no brightness, as Amos 5:20 says,
"[Shall] not the day of the LORD [be] darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it"?; and that day begins with the brightness absent because the Church has been taken out of the way (which is the dwelling of the 'brightness' of God on earth, since Pentecost), and then the man of sin can be/will be revealed and have his 'hour' of power, before He is destroyed by the Brightness of the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ to reign on this earth for the Sabbath of a thousand years of Peace.

2 Thessalonians 2:8; "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming":
Jesus promises that He will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, when he comes like lightning on His throne of glory to reign over His purchased kingdom.

The Tares remaining who were not destroyed in the battle over Jerusalem at His coming (because they were not in the army of the man of sin), will be gathered together, by angels, from all the Gentile nations, and judged before Him on His throne of glory -and sent into the everlasting fire.
The earth will be utterly cleansed of all the wicked generation of the devil who remain alive on earth at His coming.
That is His promise.

Soon, the wicked generation shall be no more, and the righteous generation that keeps peace shall inherit the earth. John saw it all, in the book of Revelation:

Those remaining alive at the coming of the LORD to reign on earth, who are His by coming into the New covenant in His blood will be called "the Blessed of the LORD", for they shall inherit the kingdom the Father prepared for them "from the foundation of the earth" (for His human sons, in Adam, at Creation the earth was "the kingdom prepared" -Adam lost it; the Last Adam redeemed it and His adopted sons will inherit it in Him, the New and only human Firstborn).[/font][/i]

Click to expand...

I use to believe along the same lines that you do you in that Hosea 6:1-3 thing and considering the two days to be 2000 years and we are about to enter into that third day or 1000 years which fit into a 7000 years cycle.

However those scriptures were fulfilled already in Christ. The main problem I have now with that whole seen it that nothing has been fulfilled. That would mean salvation is not yet complete and everyone would still be waiting to see if Jesus has yet appeared to confirm our salvation just as the high priest did in the OC system of the law.

Sometimes Christians seem to forget, that when it comes to the Bible we are reading someone elses mail. The Epistles, are just that, letters. ... The letters of the New Testament were not written to us. Consider what the letters say, such as; (To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. Romans 1:7), (To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus. 1 Corinthians 1:2), (To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia. 2 Corinthians 1:2 (To the church of Galatia. Galatians 1:2), (To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 1:1), (To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons. Philippians 1:1), (To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse. Colossians 1:2), ( To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 1:1)

(To Timothy, a true son in the faith Timothy. 1:2) (To Titus, a true son in our common faith. Titus 1:4) (To Philemon our beloved and fellow laborer Philemon 1:1), (To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad James 1:1) (To the seven churches of Asia. 1 Peter 1:1) and the list goes on. These were letters written to first century people and first century churches about first century situations and events. God has preserved these letters for us today for our learning, instruction, and comfort but they were not written to us. They were written to first century people.
End quote;

How true a statement.
We are in effect reading someone elses mail. When we read these letters we must understand them as they were written. When the writer told the readers that these events would happen soon, he was talking about events that were about to happen at that time in the first century. We have absolutely no problem understanding this principle when reading the Old Testament, why so much problem understanding it in the New Testament?

Secondly, and just as important, we must remember that the New Testament was written during what has been called the transition period, or as I have come to call it, the new exodus (See I Corinthians 10: 1-11 ). During this new exodus, the people of God did not have His Word written on stone tablets like Old Covenant Israel. Therefore, God gave the maturing man a group of men (the Apostles) to guide them to the promised rest, i.e., the completed New Covenant Age of Christ.

This is what scholarship calls the already but not yet of the New Testament, meaning that there were parts of salvation already being tasted, but the consummation was yet to come (cf Ephesians 2:8 with Romans 13:11). That salvation was predicted, foreshadowed, and proclaimed in the Old Testament. It was a salvation that would be fulfilled and realized fully consummated at His Presence in the end of the old-covenant age in A.D. 70. The cross was the beginning of salvation not the full consummation of salvation.

(Hebrews 9:28)
Salvation didnt come at the cross. It didnt come at Pentecost. It didnt come at the ascension. According to the pattern of the Old Testament, forgiveness of sins came when the high priest came out from the Presence behind the veil. Jesus, representing us, was in the Presence of God at the time of the writing of Hebrews. All of that generation knew it would take the return of Jesus to complete the work of atonement. Thus they spoke of this redemptive work as a hope. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.(1Peter 1:9) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: (1Peter 1:10)

Salvation i.e., deliverance was inaugurated in the ministry of Jesus. It was ratified or confirmed through His Cross [not at the Cross], and consummated in His Parousia. Think about it - if salvation was all in all secured at or on the Cross, then what need was there further - do you follow? And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation is nearer than when we believed . (Roman 13:11)

The Cross was the linch-pin, the central part in securing our salvation, however, Christs Coming in AD70 completed it. Again, salvation came through or via the Cross of Calvary, the Victory of the Cross had an out working to completion in that generation. This is NOT saying that there was some inherent deficiency in the Cross, NO, it is saying the process of salvation started and finished with the parousia of God in Christ - His First and the parousia being the book-ends of Salvation - both encapsulating the Cross.

The disciples know salvation started at the cross but was NOT completed at the cross. Their Christian hope rested on the oath and promise of God. They also knew there High Priest would return before that generation passed away. Jesus emphasized this in His teaching. So they waited in eager anticipation for the finished work of salvation, or atonement. Peter wrote of these things: . . . who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)

When did our High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? This question seems to be ignored by many Christians today. It is of vital importance, however, because unless our High Priest appears who can be saved? The Bible explains and interprets itself.

The example is set in the Old Testament. Every year on the Day of Atonement the high priest would enter in to the Presence behind the veil in the Holiest of all. Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God. (Leviticus 23:27,28)

The High Priest must come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins. If the High Priest does not appear the people have no assurance of salvation. No appearance, no forgiveness.
Jesus Christ is our High Priest. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 6:19, 20) It is obvious by these verses that He did enter the Presence behind the veil. And the Christians of that generation waited!
(Hebrews 9:28)
Jesus, representing us, was in the Presence of God at the time of the writing of Hebrews. All of that generation knew it would take the return of Jesus to complete the work of atonement. Thus they spoke of this redemptive work as a hope.

If Christ didnt return, as some Christians would have us believe, then no one can truly say he has complete salvation. If Christ hasnt come out from the Presence behind the veil, then the work of atonement is an unfinished work. Here is but another folly of Futurism.

The good news is Jesus did return! (The good news, or Gospel, is not preached correctly unless the Second Coming of Christ is included.) So if he has not returned then no Christian can say they are saved they can only say that they have a hope of salvation. If the New Covenant believer has been waiting for yet another stage of Christs work then what makes the New Covenant any better than the Old?

Question
(1)Were did any of disciples/Jewish writer of the New Testament say their salvation was completed at the cross without the High Priest coming out from behind the veil, or out of the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins?

(2) Were does any of disciples / Jewish writers of the New Testament say complete salvation that came with the parousia was 2.000 years away.

(3) Were in the Old Testament does it teach the High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies thousands of years away from the first?

(4) If salvation was completed at the cross why did Paul say their salvation is nearer than when they believed years after the cross? . (Romans 13:11) These questions are but other follys of Futurism.

Hidden Manna · Dec 6, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
Hidden Manna said:

QUOTE]

I had the very decided feeling that I am not replying to your own study of the Word of God on these matters, but that I am replying to another person's book that they have written, for the things I say are ignored, as to their Scriptural proofs, and there is no discussion between us on the matters, just long seeming quotes pasted from some preterism book.

I asked you before if that was the case, and I think you denied it, -did you not? But I checked this page of yours and find that you are not writing discussion that you have studied from the Bible, but from a preterist's book, after all, and that is plagarism, for you do not even give him credit.
Your page was taken from;
http://www.preteristarchive.addr.com/Preterism/bell-william_p_08.html
I consider you a dishonest person for not actually discussing the contents of my replies, but instead, just posting from preterist books -not from the Bible- but from twisted doctrines of men who do not accept the Bible as it is written.

But I do my own studies and I wrote this myself, below, on this forum, and have posted it to you, before, but the Scriptures were not discussed by you.

Click to expand...

I'm not claiming anything to be my own, some is and some is not and I'm not selling anything as to make a profit. so what your problem with that.

You have lots to boost about and I'm glad you have the time and write and study for yourself but you have missed it by almost 2000 years.

You can believe what you want and make Jesus and the apostles look like they were liars.

Did John give credit to all the prophets he quoted from the OT to write Revelation ?

We live in a day when everyone wants credit, money and fame.

(Daniel 12:4) But thou, O Daniel, (shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end) many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

(Revelation 22:10) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

A direct parallel to Daniel 12:4 is Revelation 22:10. Daniel as well as John received a vision of the time of the end. Daniel is told to seal up the book, till the time of the end. From Daniels time 586 to Christ was approximately 500 years. Ok, that is a good reason for God to tell Daniel to seal up the book. Five hundred years is an incredibly long time for a book to be un-sealed if the end was not (at hand) So God told Daniel to seal up his book. Anyway at the end the seal of the book would be loosened, right?

So after five-hundred years (many days) had passed from Daniel to Johns book of Revelation, the angel of the Lord tells John at the end of the book: (Revelation 22:10) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Seal not, why? at hand. If Johns vision was referring to events nearly 2000 years to come, the book should have been sealed up with John just as well as it was with Daniel. The visions that Daniel received of the end were referring to many days. At hand has nothing to do with events 2000 years to come.

(Ezekiel 12:22-28) Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? {23} Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. {24} For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. {25} For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. {26} Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, {27} Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. {28} Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.

When God uses time statements to men, He means them.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 6, 2005

Hidden Manna said:
yeshuasavedme said:

However those scriptures were fulfilled already in Christ.

The main problem I have now with that whole seen it that nothing has been fulfilled. That would mean salvation is not yet complete and everyone would still be waiting to see if Jesus has yet appeared to confirm our salvation just as the high priest did in the OC system of the law.

Click to expand...

I made a post before yours that you should read, Hidden Manna, for I caught you in plagarism.

The statement you made above, is completely biblically unsound and the things you said have no biblical connect.

There is no sound Bible doctrines that you can point to that say such a thing that the Hosea Scriptures are fullfilled, and the Hosea passages are many and detailed about what YHWH is doing and shall do with His namesake -for His glory.

Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In the fullness of time, He came forth -in the last days of the earth's appointed days before the regeneration of it and the heavens.
Israel is the called of God; Whose gifts and calling are without repentence.

The nation of Israel is smitten by YHWH, and by YHWH the nation of Israel will be raised up and brought into the New covenant that they received the promise of first, as keepers of the vineyard of the YHWH of hosts.

Because they did not know the day of their visitation as a nation, they will see His face no more until they say "Blessed is He Who Comes In the Name of the LORD".
These are the last days of this earth. His kingdom is coming soon! -and He will send His angels to gather out of His kingdom all things that offend and then there will be no more wicked found on this earth, as the Psalmist wrote three thousand years ago, about that Messianic Day that is coming, of His Peace.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentence, and Israel will be restored and the Son of Man will return to reign from Jerusalem over all this earth for the thousand year Sabbbath Rest of this present earth before the eighth day, in which all seed of Adam shall be cut off -as circumcision is the sign of.

Hidden Manna · Dec 6, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
Hidden Manna said:

I made a post before yours that you should read, Hidden Manna, for I caught you in plagarism.

The statement you made above, is completely biblically unsound and the things you said have no biblical connect.

There is no sound Bible doctrines that you can point to that say such a thing that the Hosea Scriptures are fullfilled, and the Hosea passages are many and detailed about what YHWH is doing and shall do with His namesake -for His glory.

Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In the fullness of time, He came forth -in the last days of the earth's appointed days before the regeneration of it and the heavens.
Israel is the called of God; Whose gifts and calling are without repentence.

The nation of Israel is smitten by YHWH, and by YHWH the nation of Israel will be raised up and brought into the New covenant that they received the promise of first, as keepers of the vineyard of the YHWH of hosts.

Because they did not know the day of their visitation as a nation, they will see His face no more until they say "Blessed is He Who Comes In the Name of the LORD".
These are the last days of this earth. His kingdom is coming soon! -and He will send His angels to gather out of His kingdom all things that offend and then there will be no more wicked found on this earth, as the Psalmist wrote three thousand years ago, about that Messianic Day that is coming, of His Peace.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentence, and Israel will be restored and the Son of Man will return to reign from Jerusalem over all this earth for the thousand year Sabbbath Rest of this present earth before the eighth day, in which all seed of Adam shall be cut off -as circumcision is the sign of.

Click to expand...

Luke 21:22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

If Jesus said that then I believe it and I have caught you in making Jesus out to be a liar.

Also I never thought of the Jews in our day fulfilling any Bible prophecy because they are not the biblical Jews or Israel that is in the Bible.

1948 Israel?
The reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1948 is considered to be the most important sign that the second coming is near. One of the great problems with this dispensational view is that there is no rebirth of Israel or rebuilt temple mentioned anywhere in the New Testament. Nor is the supposed re-gathering of the Jews to their homeland. This is puzzling, because if the rebirth of Israel is the super sign, you would think it would be very prominent in prophetic passages such as Matt. 24 and Revelation. It simply is not.

There is only one passage that dispensationalists point to that they say speaks of the rebirth of Israel and that is in Matt. 24.
Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

The thought is that the fig tree represents a re-born Israel. However, other passages in the New Testament cast doubt upon this interpretation. In Matthew 24s parallel passage in Luke 21 Jesus says to look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near (Luke 21:29-30). Are we talking about the rebirth of many nations here? It is far more logical to assume that Jesus was merely using the fig tree(s) as an object lesson.

Moreover, other passages that could associate Israel with a fig tree always speak of judgment and never of any sort of rebirth.
Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, Let no fruit grow on you ever again. Immediately the fig tree withered away.

And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, How did the fig tree wither away so soon?

So Jesus answered and said to them, Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, Be removed and be cast into the sea, it will be done. Matthew 21:18-21

Most scholars believe this particular fig tree did represent Old Covenant Israel. It was about to pass away and never bear fruit again. Jesus was not just mad because he wanted some figs and could not get any. Moreover, never again means never again.

Furthermore, when Jesus said that if they had faith and did not doubt, they would not only do what was done to the fig tree, but they could also say to this mountain Be removed and be cast into the sea, and it would be done. Was Jesus given them permission to tear up actual mountains and cast them into the sea? No, He was talking about something spiritual.

For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. (For they could not endure what was commanded: And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow. And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.)

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:18-24

If they had faith, they would see the Old Covenant which was represented by Mount Sinai torn up and cast away. And indeed it was.

Let us consider another parable with a fig tree.

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. And He began telling this parable: A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground? And he answered and said to him, Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down. (Luke 9:3-9)

Obviously, the fig tree is not a nation about to be reborn, but one that was about to be judged, and indeed it was. It is interesting that Jesus probably told this parable in the third year of His ministry.
Next we must look at the covenantal implications of the rebirth of Israel. Gods promise to give the Jews the land of Israel as their inheritance was an Old Covenant promise. This begs the question is the Old Covenant still in effect? If we say it passed away with the coming of the New Covenant, then so did the promise of the land.

However, if we say that it is still in effect for the Jews, we still run into problems. In the scriptures the promise that the Jews would hold the land of Israel was conditional. Deuteronomy 28 tells us If you are not careful to do all the words of this law you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it, And the LORD will scatter you among all the peoples, from one end of the earth to the other. If the people who now live in Israel are not keeping the Law of Moses (and they cant be. The Mosaic Law ceased to be observed in AD. 70, and it has never been observed in full since.), how can we say that God has given them the land back?

Even if you say that Gods covenant with Abraham to give the Jews the physical land of Israel is still in effect, look what the Bible says are Gods conditions for remembering His promise.

But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land, Leviticus 26:40-42.

Did the Jews meet this condition before the 1948 re-gathering? No! This dispensational view essentially makes God a liar!

Seeing that you are of those who do that not to mention you have been very rude with me, then we should just part are ways and stop communicating with each other before things become just a battle with each other and we get banned.

armothe · Dec 7, 2005

AnthonyE1778 said:
One of my key reasons for believing in the pre-tribulation rapture is ....

History clearly records that the Christians of the first century were enduring severe tribulation. Martyrdoms such as beheadings, crucifixions, burnings and beatings were common from the years 30-70AD. Some like to believe we are currently living in the tribulation period. Be glad you will never have to experience anything as brutal as the disciples did.
Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus..

AnthonyE1778 said:
I just cannot understand how anyone can follow a preterist line of thinking in light of current world events.

That is because you are making the mistake of reading the bible with 20th century goggles. The books of the bible consist of letters, poems, historical readings and personal entries written to contemporaries. The letters of Paul for example were written to real people during a real time (60s AD) consisting of real words that applied to the original audience. Attempting to transplant 20th century meaning into 1st century literature is disasterous.

AnthonyE1778 said:
When was the Gospel preached to all the nations?

Colossians 1:6, All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth.
Colossians 1:23, if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Romans 1:8, First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
Romans 16:25-26, Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

AnthonyE1778 said:
What about China's 200-million-man army?

Yeah, what about it? Scripture please?

AnthonyE1778 said:
When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky?

Josephus records 100lb stones fell from the sky as Roman trebuchets/catapults launched these limestone projectiles at Jerusalem's walls. A common tactic at the time was to cover them with black tar and set them on fire.

AnthonyE1778 said:
Why did we have the rebirth of Israel? If Jerusalem was forever removed from being the burdensome stone, why has it now returned to that status?

It was removed from its burdensome stone. The Old Mosaic Law was fulfilled in Christ blossoming into a new covenant free from the spiritual death of sin open to not just Jews - rather all mankind.

AnthonyE1778 said:
They say that although the "resurrection" happened in 70 AD, the bodies of Christians were left in the grave.

That's because the resurrection consists of a spiritual cleansing from sin-death to rebirth through Christ. God resurrected man by sending Christ to conquer sin and establish the new covenant. The new covenant was not finalized before the old covenant was put out of its misery by the destruction of the Jewish temple - the crux of Mosaic law. The resurrection was a spiritual, positional change between God and man.

AnthonyE1778 said:
Preterists take the dangerous step of spiritualizing all passages of Scripture.

So instead of taking the Harlot riding on a beast to mean Jerusalem's dispicable allegiance to a pagan nation - you'd rather it mean to be a literal/physical prostitute saddled up on the back of a literal/physical seven-headed dragon? (Rev. 17)

-A

yeshuasavedme · Dec 7, 2005

Hidden Manna said:
yeshuasavedme said:

Luke 21:22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

If Jesus said that then I believe it and I have caught you in making Jesus out to be a liar.
...
Did the Jews meet this condition before the 1948 re-gathering? No! This dispensational view essentially makes God a liar!

Seeing that you are of those who do that not to mention you have been very rude with me, then we should just part are ways and stop communicating with each other before things become just a battle with each other and we get banned.

Click to expand...

HiddenManna,
You did not address your plagarism.
And I do not plan to get banned by responding.

The Jews are in 'Hosea' at this time, when Gomer was bought, housed, fed, but did not 'know a man'; So it is with the namesake of God in flesh today: He has bought them, He feeds them, He houses them; but they are not 'His wife': but they shall be restored as His people by His power after the Church is taken out of the way for the final week -of Daniel's weeks, until Messiah reigns.

They are also in Ezekiel 37: the bones have come together, they have been fleshed out, but the Living Spirit is not yet in them: but He shall be, and they shall live again in His sight.

The Dry Bones Live
Ezekiel 37
The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. 2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. 3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
So I answered, "O Lord God, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord."'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'" 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it," says the Lord.'"

Hsa 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, [departing] from the LORD.

8 Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Then God said:

"Call his name *Lo-Ammi,
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.

The Restoration of Israel
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
'You are *not My people,'
There it shall be said to them,
'You are sons of the living God.'
11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

buddy mack · Dec 7, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
Hidden Manna said:

I made a post before yours that you should read, Hidden Manna, for I caught you in plagarism.

The statement you made above, is completely biblically unsound and the things you said have no biblical connect.

There is no sound Bible doctrines that you can point to that say such a thing that the Hosea Scriptures are fullfilled, and the Hosea passages are many and detailed about what YHWH is doing and shall do with His namesake -for His glory.

Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In the fullness of time, He came forth -in the last days of the earth's appointed days before the regeneration of it and the heavens.
Israel is the called of God; Whose gifts and calling are without repentence.

The nation of Israel is smitten by YHWH, and by YHWH the nation of Israel will be raised up and brought into the New covenant that they received the promise of first, as keepers of the vineyard of the YHWH of hosts.

Because they did not know the day of their visitation as a nation, they will see His face no more until they say "Blessed is He Who Comes In the Name of the LORD".
These are the last days of this earth. His kingdom is coming soon! -and He will send His angels to gather out of His kingdom all things that offend and then there will be no more wicked found on this earth, as the Psalmist wrote three thousand years ago, about that Messianic Day that is coming, of His Peace.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentence, and Israel will be restored and the Son of Man will return to reign from Jerusalem over all this earth for the thousand year Sabbbath Rest of this present earth before the eighth day, in which all seed of Adam shall be cut off -as circumcision is the sign of.

Click to expand...

Every generations thinks they are living in the last days, and it will be this way til kingdom comes.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 7, 2005

buddy mack said:
yeshuasavedme said:

Every generations thinks they are living in the last days, and it will be this way til kingdom comes.

Click to expand...

It has been the last days of this earth's days since Jesus Christ came to inhabit human flesh.

The earth has a week of 'thousands'.

The last Day is the Sabbath Rest of this present earth before the heavens and the earth are melted, being on fire, with fervent heat, and the heavens are rolled up as a scroll and a new heavens and a new earth are made from the very same elements that the Creator created in the beginning of the weeks.

A week has a beginning, a middle, an end, and a last day.

Jesus Christ came in flesh to end the first death of separation -from the Living Spirit- in the last days of earth's appointed days.

He came at the beginning of the fifth millemmium.

When He returns to reign at the "Times of Refreshing" =the Last Day and the Sabbath for this earth, then it will be the truly last day of this present creation.

He taught us to pray; "Thy kingdom come Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven"; and He told us to occupy 'till He come' and to preach the Gospel of the kingdom.

'His kingdom is coming'; if you are not in His kingdom by being born from above by repenting and receiving His Spirit of adoption, then you will be a cast away in the everlasting fire. "Repent and be in His kingdom"! -"or be left 'out' -forever"!

That! is the message we have as Believers.
His kingdom is coming to this earth and His will shall be done in this earth, as it is in heaven! And it is coming 'soon'; though the promise was made three thousand years ago. It is coming without remedy; suddenly; without warning; so if you will be in His kingdom, then be redeemed now, 'today', while it is 'the day of salvation' -'tomorrow' will be too late!

That is the Gospel!

armothe · Dec 7, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
buddy mack said:

'His kingdom is coming'; if you are not in His kingdom by being born from above by repenting and receiving His Spirit of adoption, then you will be a cast away in the everlasting fire. "Repent and be in His kingdom"! -"or be left 'out' -forever"!
His kingdom is coming to this earth and His will shall be done in this earth, as it is in heaven!

Click to expand...

I'm confused. Is God's kingdom here, or is it yet to come?

-A

AnthonyE1778 · Dec 7, 2005

armothe said:
yeshuasavedme said:

I'm confused. Is God's kingdom here, or is it yet to come?

-A

Click to expand...

according to him yes it has come and is here. This is evident giving the world around us...i mean look at everything. The world is getting worse and worse by the second. Jesus' Kingdom is surely here! Lets Rejoice!

I am being just a little sarcastic...but honestly, if you look at the world around it is quite frankly just plain ludicrous to think that Jesus kingdom is here. I am not a pessimist for I still think that the best is yet to come.

armothe · Dec 7, 2005

AnthonyE1778 said:
according to him yes it has come and is here. This is evident giving the world around us...i mean look at everything. The world is getting worse and worse by the second. Jesus' Kingdom is surely here! Lets Rejoice!I am being just a little sarcastic...but honestly, if you look at the world around it is quite frankly just plain ludicrous to think that Jesus kingdom is here.

Perhaps consider that your expectations are incorrect.

John 18:36 - Jesus answered, `My kingdom is not of this world;
Luke 17:20 - And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God will come he answered them, and said, `The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor shall they say, Look, here; or look, there; for look, the kingdom of God is within you.'
Matthew 12:28 - "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

-A

Hidden Manna · Dec 7, 2005

yeshuasavedme said:
Hidden Manna said:

They are also in Ezekiel 37: the bones have come together, they have been fleshed out, but the Living Spirit is not yet in them: but He shall be, and they shall live again in His sight.

The Dry Bones Live
Ezekiel 37
The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. 2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. 3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
So I answered, "O Lord God, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord."'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'" 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it," says the Lord.'"

Hsa 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, [departing] from the LORD.

8 Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Then God said:

"Call his name *Lo-Ammi,
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.

The Restoration of Israel
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
'You are *not My people,'
There it shall be said to them,
'You are sons of the living God.'
11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

Click to expand...

Ezekiels Bone Yard

Then He said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off! Therefore prophesy and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD:

Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it, says the LORD. (Ezekiel 37:11-14)

During the Babylonian captivity Israel was cut off from her homeland. They spent seventy years in another country. (Heres the point.) Israel was cut off from the Promised Land was, in the sight of God, as dead! All these Jews were alive physically, but as the Lord showed Ezekiel they were in a valley of dry bones and in a grave nationally.

God in restoring His people to their own land uses the figure of graves opening and His people coming forth in national resurrection.

Reader if you now understand this second meaning of death (national Jews cut off from the promised land), then you possess a valuable tool in understanding mans separated from God in (Genesis 3:23-24). Man was cut off from the tree of life and no longer in the presence of God. Man was cut off from God, just like Israel was cut off from their promise land while in Babylonian captivity. To God they were also separated from Him and in a grave nationally.

It was after Babylonian captivity that Jerusalem was re-built that futurist get confused with the day we are living in right now when it comes to the re-building of the temple. Most of the prophecies concerning the restoration of Israel by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. had to do with the Herods temple. Not any future temple where a world ruler called the Antichrist will be. After 70 AD the only temple that scripture deals with is the body of the believer in which indwells Jesus Christ. Well the Father and Holy Spirit also. In Christ is the fullness of the Godhead bodily the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Colossians 2
8Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Full Preterism-Where is the scriptural evidence?

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Living in HIS kingdom...

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Living in HIS kingdom...

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