Full Preterism-Where is the scriptural evidence?

[AnthonyE1778]

I have read and read and read the Bible numerous times in search of the answers as to why some people accept the Full Preterist view of prophecy and cannot make sense of any of it. I know there are preterists on this forum and I just want to get an understanding of why you believe what you believe. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Jesus said it, that settles it for me. Over and over He said He would return within THAT generation....and even told His disciples that some of them standing there wouldn't die before they saw Him coming in His kingdom. He told the High Priest Caiphas that he would see Him coming on the clouds with glory. He told the disciples that He sent out to the cities of Israel that they wouldn't finish going through the towns of Israel before He came back. He said that the time of punishment upon the Jews when the temple was destroyed (in 70AD) was going to fulfill ALL that had been written.

He also said that UNTIL heaven and earth passed away that not one jot or tittle would pass away from the law. Do you believe the law has passed away? If so, then it happened AFTER heaven and earth passed away according to Jesus.

I could go on.....but I won't. I simply believe what Jesus said and take Him for His word. If we don't understand the NATURE of His coming, kingdom, body, resurrection, rapture etc.....that is OUR problem. But I won't change, re-interpret, pull out of context or alter the clear words of Jesus to fit into a preconceived idea of those things. I changed MY thinking and beliefs to match the teachings of Jesus.

Then once I began to let the OT prophets interpret the NT prophets...it was clear. Then you can understand what was meant by "heaven and earth", "olive trees", "beasts", "no more sea", "two witnesses", "Gog and Magog", "great harlot", "mystery Babylon" , "Armageddon" etc. etc.

Therefore, I am a preterist. I believe Jesus. He is here now, and has been since the end of the generation that crucified Him. He is just like Paul said "The King, eternal, immortal INVISIBLE...the only True God". He is reigning within His eternal spiritual kingdom in the hearts of men made righteous by His blood. He is, as the bible says "A life giving SPIRIT"

..."and of the increase of His kingdom there will be no end". Hallelujah!!

(As I said before, I only have access to a computer occasionally. This is my short answer. Blessings....)

 

[Hidden Manna]

I have read and read and read the Bible numerous times in search of the answers as to why some people accept the Full Preterist view of prophecy and cannot make sense of any of it. I know there are preterists on this forum and I just want to get an understanding of why you believe what you believe. Any help would be appreciated.

Preterism means “things bygone” or “things past.”
Futurism is the dominant view at this time. Preterism is a view of eschatology (the study of “endtimes” or “last things”) that views the [second] coming of Christ, the judgment, the great persecution, and the [general] resurrection as having already been fulfilled. Most preterists believe these things happened in the first century, culminating in the events of a.d. 70. There are different degrees of preterism. Partial preterists believe that some things have been fulfilled but others are yet future. Preterists also differ considerably concerning the implications of this a.d. 70 fulfillment and how it affects practice and life for today.
Most preterists view “the end” of which the apostles speak as being the end of the law or the filling up of the covenant in Jesus. The old order, the Mosaic covenant, “the flesh,” “the world,” circumcision, heaven and earth (and other terms that encapsulated the law) were passing away; the glory of the law was fading. The old covenant, as per Hebrews, was growing old and ready to disappear. Yet, at the writing of Hebrews, it had not yet vanished. Something soon was to complete the victory; the apostles constantly expected it and encouraged their brethren to do the same. That something was Jesus’ providential coming to destroy faithless Jerusalem, its temple, and the perverse generation that stood up against God and against His holy ones. This event would spell vindication for the church.
Persecutors rose up against Jesus and against his disciples. These were antichrists and adversaries, mostly from among fellow-Jews. Believers were scourged in the synagogues and cast out from them. They were handed up to rulers and authorities; they were routinely stoned, mocked, killed and accused of sin (with respect to the law). Throughout the whole world, even the Gentile Christians were being compelled to be circumcised and to follow the customs, as handed down by Moses. These people were Pharisaical Jews who sometimes identified with Jesus (but not necessarily). They were called the circumcision faction. They boasted in the flesh, in the temple “made with hands” and in their circumcision. They brought great affliction against the servants of righteousness. Their pride was in Jerusalem and in the temple. The destruction of these things brought them low; it ended the persecution from the hands of these men (both inside Judea and throughout the whole world).
According to Preterism, the law was good and came from God. Yet Jesus’ contemporaries, a wicked and perverse generation, had made the law an idol, an object of God’s wrath. As the prophets spoke of God-appointed new moons and Sabbaths as being theirs (i.e. not God’s), so too was the law theirs in perversion. It was a law of sin and death, a ministration of condemnation.
Preterism draws much of its support from imminency language from Jesus and the apostles. They speak of events that were “soon” and “near” or to occur in their generation. Revelation speaks in this way plainly. So too does Matt 24 speak against the very temple that was then standing. Preterist believe that futurists miss out on the powerful fulfillment of prophetic promises from our Lord Jesus Christ.
Also, much of the imagery, Preterists understand in prophetic terms. “Heavens and earth” are connected to or symbolic of the covenant in many places (such as Isaiah and Deut). The sun, moon, and stars falling, is also a common way of speaking with respect to a particular nation or person (Ezek 32, Ecclesiastes 12). And God regularly would “come” upon the clouds in temporal judgments against adversaries. Preterists think that futurists ignore linguistic connections with and background from other parts of the Scripture.
Historically, Christianity has shown a dualism between preterism and futurism. They have existed side-by-side. Traditional orthodoxy might basically be described as partial-preterist. Many people have seen some of these texts as being fulfilled. Interpreters varied considerably. There was no systematic (or well developed) futurism or preterism until the 19th Century. Historicism dominated the Reformation age. Historicists typically viewed Revelation as being a summation of history. The Pope was the “antichrist” and the “man of sin.” This view (especially concerning the pope) developed a couple of centuries prior to the Reformation.
Prior to Historicism, the dominant view was not systematic at all. It was a hodge-podge that didn’t necessarily connect one piece of the puzzle with another.
Preterism might arguably be considered the product of systematic futurism. Futurists connected certain events in eschatology as being interwoven together. They aimed at a consistency. They said, in essence, “if the final judgment is future, so too is the coming and the resurrection and the great persecution, etc.” They correctly linked all of these events together in time.
Preterism agrees with the systematic futurist in linking these events together in logic and in time (and calling it eschatology). Nevertheless, Preterists say that because all of these events hang together, they all hang together in the past.

 

[AnthonyE1778]

What I really am asking is where is Scriptural backing (actual verses and chapters from the Bible). And you have to remember that Jesus said that the disciples 'might' not be dead simply because Jesus God's Son does not know the date nor the time when the kingdom will come. Only God the Father knows that.

 

[AnthonyE1778]

One of my key reasons for believing in the pre-tribulation rapture is the fact all other views are always trying to undermine pre-tribulationism. Up until now, the most vocal group of opponents has been the post-trib and pre-wrath folks. I'm amazed to find preterism now on the attack, gaining ground by mostly converting pre-tribbers.

This theory of preterism argues that all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled; it states that nothing remains on the prophetic calendar. According to preterism, events like the rise of the Antichrist, the tribulation, the rapture, and the Day of the Lord all took place around 70 AD, the year the Romans invaded Jerusalem and destroyed the second Temple.

I just cannot understand how anyone can follow a preterist line of thinking in light of current world events. Up until now, I've largely been ignoring preterism because it seemed equivalent to the Flat Earth Society. The heart of this error, in my view, is based on Jesus' statement that "this generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled" (Mat 24:34). It seems easy enough to claim Jesus was speaking about a first-century generation; however, logic ends there when one contemplates the fulfillment of all Bible prophecy.

In order to make 70 AD the magic year, we would have to delete dozens of prophecies that were never fulfilled. When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about China's 200-million-man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? And what date was it when the Euphrates River dried up?

The questions are endless. Why did we have the rebirth of Israel? If Jerusalem was forever removed from being the burdensome stone, why has it now returned to that status? When did all the Jews shout, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," as Jesus said they would?

After being so strict in their interpretation of Matthew 24:34, preterists then run roughshod over many clear statements of Scripture. They say that although the "resurrection" happened in 70 AD, the bodies of Christians were left in the grave.

Preterists take the dangerous step of spiritualizing all passages of Scripture that relate to the nation of Israel, and claim that these refer to the church, the "New Israel." They teach that the "old earth," which Scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant. The new heaven and new earth, they say, is the New Covenant, and the "elements," which Scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the "elements of the law."

Preterism produces, in my view, some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity. One explanation I ran across cited God's need for population control as the reason for mankind's suffering. Here is what one preterist author wrote: "I believe that people are born and people die. Kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall. God is the providential population controller. He brings famine, disease, natural catastrophes, wars and tumults. One-third of the population of Europe was destroyed by the Black Plague in the early part of this millennium. Eight hundred fifty thousand were killed in the 1556 earthquake in the Shanghai province of China. Two million were killed in World War II. Thirteen million were killed under Stalin and 6 million under Hitler. God is very equipped to control population."

 

[seebs]

What I really am asking is where is Scriptural backing (actual verses and chapters from the Bible). And you have to remember that Jesus said that the disciples 'might' not be dead simply because Jesus God's Son does not know the date nor the time when the kingdom will come. Only God the Father knows that.

Er, what?

 

[seebs]

One of my key reasons for believing in the pre-tribulation rapture is the fact all other views are always trying to undermine pre-tribulationism. Up until now, the most vocal group of opponents has been the post-trib and pre-wrath folks. I'm amazed to find preterism now on the attack, gaining ground by mostly converting pre-tribbers.

The rapture itself is an invention of a false prophet within the last couple of centuries, and is incompatible with the Creed.

I just cannot understand how anyone can follow a preterist line of thinking in light of current world events. Up until now, I've largely been ignoring preterism because it seemed equivalent to the Flat Earth Society. The heart of this error, in my view, is based on Jesus' statement that "this generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled" (Mat 24:34). It seems easy enough to claim Jesus was speaking about a first-century generation; however, logic ends there when one contemplates the fulfillment of all Bible prophecy.

People have been saying stuff like this for about 1,970 years. There are always people who think that "current world events" indicate the end times.

In order to make 70 AD the magic year, we would have to delete dozens of prophecies that were never fulfilled. When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about China's 200-million-man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? And what date was it when the Euphrates River dried up?

The Bible does not refer to "China" as having an army.

Throughout the Bible, "all nations" and "the world" are often used to refer to the political environment we refer to as the Middle East today.

There are plausible arguments to be had against full preterism, but the Rapture is worse. It's like rebutting a subtle heresy about Trinitarianism by explaining that, if God were like that, the Norse gods could take Him in a fight.

 

[Reazzurro90]

I have read and read and read the Bible numerous times in search of the answers as to why some people accept the Full Preterist view of prophecy and cannot make sense of any of it. I know there are preterists on this forum and I just want to get an understanding of why you believe what you believe. Any help would be appreciated.

The other important question is -where are these events in history? I mean, the return of Jesus seems like a pretty incredible event!

 

[seebs]

The other important question is -where are these events in history? I mean, the return of Jesus seems like a pretty incredible event!

The presence of the Kingdom of God is an incredible thing, but oddly the media don't notice it, perhaps because the Kingdom is not of a worldly nature. No borders.

 

[AnthonyE1778]

The rapture itself is an invention of a false prophet within the last couple of centuries, and is incompatible with the Creed.



People have been saying stuff like this for about 1,970 years. There are always people who think that "current world events" indicate the end times.



The Bible does not refer to "China" as having an army.

Throughout the Bible, "all nations" and "the world" are often used to refer to the political environment we refer to as the Middle East today.

There are plausible arguments to be had against full preterism, but the Rapture is worse. It's like rebutting a subtle heresy about Trinitarianism by explaining that, if God were like that, the Norse gods could take Him in a fight.

The thing here is that you spiritualize the Bible and that, to me, is dangerous. Once you spiritualize any scripture you open it up to mean whatever you want it to mean and this is clearly what preterists want it to mean in my opinion.

 

[Hidden Manna]

The thing here is that you spiritualize the Bible and that, to me, is dangerous. Once you spiritualize any scripture you open it up to mean whatever you want it to mean and this is clearly what preterists want it to mean in my opinion.

Futurist seem to believe all preterist are nuts. Sometimes we have to show them we are not.

Edwards was highly influential in the Baptist life of America. He was the first historian of Baptists in America. Albert Henry Newman’s in his book (A History of the Baptist Church in the United States 1894). said Morgan Edwards certainly did bring “strange things” to the Baptist people in America in 1788.

Edwards believed that the “lake of fire brimstone was “on the moon”! Edwards was a literalist so far as the New Testament was concerned, but not as much as with the Old Testament. Edwards believed that Abraham looked for a real literal city. He acknowledged the Bible was the word of God, while not denying the textual difficulties.

Falwell told about 1,500 people at a conference in Kingsport, Tenn., on a Thursday that he believes the second coming of Christ would be within a years. That was 8 years ago.
And don’t forget the Y2K thing.

Jerry Falwell also distributed a packet on “The Y2K Time Bomb,” including a video, “A Christian’s Guide to the Millennium Bug,” advising people to be prepared for disaster. “Y2K is God’s instrument to shake this nation, to humble this nation,” Falwell said. “He may be preparing to confound our language, to jam our communications, scatter our efforts, and judge us for our sin and rebellion for going against his Lordship.”

Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, who have sold more than 10 million copies of their Left Behind series of books about the Apocalypse, prophesied global upheaval on Jan. 1, 2000. The Y2K bug could trigger “financial meltdown,” warned LaHaye, “making it possible for the Antichrist to dominate the world.”

From 1998-99, we had plenty of our Dispensational friends searching their Bibles for evidence of the “rapture” and the end of all things as the Year 2000 dawned. Many books, tapes, and videos were written, produced, recorded, and bought by millions of people, many of whom were convinced the end was at hand. The prophecy know-it-alls were wrong again.

Since September 11th, 2001, even more people are wondering about the end of all things, and Tim LaHaye’s popular “Left Behind” book series (the first volume of which was originally published in 1995) has profited immensely from both the Y2K hysteria and now from the awful terrorist attack of 9-11-01.

Indeed LaHaye and Jenkins’ book series have now sold over 35 million copies. That doesn’t include the motion picture adaptation of the Left Behind novel or the many other spin-offs, such as “Left Behind for kids,” the “Left Behind” board game, CD’s, DVD’s, etc.

Fear mongering about the end of the world and the return of Christ have made millions of dollars for men like LaHaye, Lindsey, Van Impe, Hagee, and Hunt, to name only a few.

But now that the evidence of the meltdown and world domination by an Antichrist did not happen what do Christian still do? Make these men richer by spending millions of dollars on their now carton books “Left Behind” series.

Back in the early 1970’s, prophecy author Hal Lindsey predicted the “Return of Christ” would occur in 1988, Hal Lindsey was wrong, but that has not stopped him from writing many more prophecy books and it has not stopped Christians and non-Christians from buying his books.

“Who is the antichrist?” is a question that rings through out the religious communities of today. There are all kinds of theories being taught concerning the personality, actions, and identity of this antichrist. We have heard it being proclaimed that the antichrist was Hitler, Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Moammar Kadhafi, Saddam Hussein, and the list goes on and on. Of course, these have proven to be wrong. Is it finally time for us to go back and find out what the Bible teaches? The answer is so simple and so easy but, because of our religious training, it is oh so hard to accept.

Those Christians who believe that we are drawing close to the last days are continually trying to identify both the beast and the antichrist. This game of “find the beast and identify the antichrist” has become the adult Christians’ version of the child’s game of pin the tail on the donkey. Every few years, the participants place blindfolds over their eyes, turn around six times, and march toward the wall.

Sometimes they march out the door and over a cliff, as was the case with Edgar C. Whisenant, whose best-selling two-part book announced in the summer of 1988 that Jesus would surely appear to rapture His church during Rosh Hashanah week in mid-September. Half the book was called On Borrowed Time. The other was more aptly titled, 88 Reasons why the Rapture is in 1988. I can think of one key argument why his book’s thesis was incorrect: no rapture so far, and it is now February, 1989. So much for all 88 arguments. The anti-Christian world got another great laugh at the expense of millions of fundamentalists who had bought and read his two-part book. The story of Mr. Whisenant’s book was front-page news briefly around the U.S. But Mr. Whisenant is now ancient history, one more forgotten laughingstock who brought reproach to the church of Jesus Christ while he piled up his press clippings.

This is the whole problem. The victims self-consciously forget the last self-proclaimed expert in Bible prophecy whose predictions did not come to pass. They never learn to recognize the next false prophet because they refuse to admit to themselves that they had been deceived. The game has been going on throughout the twentieth century, generation after generation,

God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33) This is a foundational premise upon which all doctrine is established. It is not the character or the nature of God to have included in His Word any content that would create confusion, divisiveness, and/or ambivalence among the Church.

Nothing discredits the presentation and defense of the Christian faith and makes it more of a laughing stock in the eyes of the non-Christian world than the barrage of failed predictions, imminence speculations, and scare tactics of sincere Christians bound by our current irresponsible doctrine of the “end-times.”

 

[stumpjumper]

What I really am asking is where is Scriptural backing (actual verses and chapters from the Bible). And you have to remember that Jesus said that the disciples 'might' not be dead simply because Jesus God's Son does not know the date nor the time when the kingdom will come. Only God the Father knows that.

Alright, there is a link between Daniel and 1 Thessalonians and Revelation. In Daniel 7:13 there is a vision of The Son of Man coming to earth to rule over an everlasting kingdom. Paul in 1 Thessalonians used the word "apantesis" for meeting. In this verse: "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together to meet with the lord forever...."

"Apantesis" is a somewhat technical term that denotes a group of citizens going out of the city to meet a visiting dignitary and escort him back to the city. It was a technical and legal term about meeting an official. IOW, possibly these verses are about founding some sort of official structure or organization (I don't know, maybe even about founding a Church hint, hint).

If you're interested look up Romans 11:26 where Paul is paraphrasing Isaiah when Isaiah states: "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob. This is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins." This is a feature of apocalyptic writing in Isaiah, Paul, Revelation, Daniel, and Matthew which I have not quoted to name a few.

Interestingly, even though Paul is quoted for the Rapture (which BTW Is also in Revelation in Rev 3:10) Paul nowhere mentions two returns of Christ which is neccessary for a literal rapture.

So look up 1 Thesslonians for the Rapture and here is an interview with Craig Hill who has a recent book out on this topic: http://www.eerdmans.com/hillinterview.htm

 

[Hidden Manna]

One of my key reasons for believing in the pre-tribulation rapture is the fact all other views are always trying to undermine pre-tribulationism. Up until now, the most vocal group of opponents has been the post-trib and pre-wrath folks. I'm amazed to find preterism now on the attack, gaining ground by mostly converting pre-tribbers.

This theory of preterism argues that all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled; it states that nothing remains on the prophetic calendar. According to preterism, events like the rise of the Antichrist, the tribulation, the rapture, and the Day of the Lord all took place around 70 AD, the year the Romans invaded Jerusalem and destroyed the second Temple.

I just cannot understand how anyone can follow a preterist line of thinking in light of current world events. Up until now, I've largely been ignoring preterism because it seemed equivalent to the Flat Earth Society. The heart of this error, in my view, is based on Jesus' statement that "this generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled" (Mat 24:34). It seems easy enough to claim Jesus was speaking about a first-century generation; however, logic ends there when one contemplates the fulfillment of all Bible prophecy.

In order to make 70 AD the magic year, we would have to delete dozens of prophecies that were never fulfilled. When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about China's 200-million-man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? And what date was it when the Euphrates River dried up?

The questions are endless. Why did we have the rebirth of Israel? If Jerusalem was forever removed from being the burdensome stone, why has it now returned to that status? When did all the Jews shout, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," as Jesus said they would?

After being so strict in their interpretation of Matthew 24:34, preterists then run roughshod over many clear statements of Scripture. They say that although the "resurrection" happened in 70 AD, the bodies of Christians were left in the grave.

Preterists take the dangerous step of spiritualizing all passages of Scripture that relate to the nation of Israel, and claim that these refer to the church, the "New Israel." They teach that the "old earth," which Scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant. The new heaven and new earth, they say, is the New Covenant, and the "elements," which Scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the "elements of the law."

Preterism produces, in my view, some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity. One explanation I ran across cited God's need for population control as the reason for mankind's suffering. Here is what one preterist author wrote: "I believe that people are born and people die. Kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall. God is the providential population controller. He brings famine, disease, natural catastrophes, wars and tumults. One-third of the population of Europe was destroyed by the Black Plague in the early part of this millennium. Eight hundred fifty thousand were killed in the 1556 earthquake in the Shanghai province of China. Two million were killed in World War II. Thirteen million were killed under Stalin and 6 million under Hitler. God is very equipped to control population."

It is easy to say what one preterist said, that does not mean all preterist believe that way or agree.

The heart of man is still wicked before a person is born of the Spirit whether preterist or futurist. Your end-time view is not proof of being a Christian.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Alright, there is a link between Daniel and 1 Thessalonians and Revelation. In Daniel 7:13 there is a vision of The Son of Man coming to earth to rule over an everlasting kingdom. Paul in 1 Thessalonians used the word "apantesis" for meeting. In this verse: "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together to meet with the lord forever...."

"Apantesis" is a somewhat technical term that denotes a group of citizens going out of the city to meet a visiting dignitary and escort him back to the city. It was a technical and legal term about meeting an official. IOW, possibly these verses are about founding some sort of official structure or organization (I don't know, maybe even about founding a Church hint, hint).

If you're interested look up Romans 11:26 where Paul is paraphrasing Isaiah when Isaiah states: "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob. This is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins." This is a feature of apocalyptic writing in Isaiah, Paul, Revelation, Daniel, and Matthew which I have not quoted to name a few.

Interestingly, even though Paul is quoted for the Rapture (which BTW Is also in Revelation in Rev 3:10) Paul nowhere mentions two returns of Christ which is neccessary for a literal rapture.

So look up 1 Thesslonians for the Rapture and here is an interview with Craig Hill who has a recent book out on this topic: http://www.eerdmans.com/hillinterview.htm

Being Caught Up

The modern concept that physical human bodies had to be transformed into the likeness of Christ is not consistent with scripture. The first century saints were indeed transformed in the likeness of Christ in their physical bodies.

In Romans 6:1-11 the apostle demonstrates how in baptism the Romans had died with Christ, vs. 3, and had been raised with him, vs. 4. This patently cannot refer to a physical body, and resurrection. But notice verse 5: "If we have been planted with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection."

Is the likeness of his death a physical likeness? If so, Paul and the other had died physically. But if it be admitted that this refers to a spiritual likeness how does this impact verse 5? Are we to see that in baptism there is a spiritual likeness to the death of Jesus but in resurrection there will be a physical imitation of his resurrection? Who changed Paul's hermeneutic here? Our Modern interpreters, not Paul, change the nature of the discussion.

For Paul, the "likeness" was the same in both death and life. In verse 8 the apostle says "if we died with Christ, we believe we shall also live with him." Here Paul is talking to people still living in physical bodies yet he says they had died with Christ. The coming life was of the same nature as the death; but the death was not physical, therefore the coming life was not physical. . Paul has not changed subjects; he is still focused on his singular desire to be in the "likeness of Christ.

In order to understand what Paul is saying we must see how Paul talks in terms of covenants. Colossians 3:1 is of the same discussion. Paul said the Colossians had died with Christ and their lives were hidden. Was that a physical death NO.

The New Testament writers likened life under the Old Covenant to death, because all those under the Law were under the curse, Gal. 3:10f. We must see things the way Paul was teaching the covenant change over.

The futurist view just does not make sense when you look at it in the context of the entire New Testament. The typical futurist takes scripture out of context not only of other scripture, but of its cultural and historical context. For example, they say that being transformed to His likeness has to do with the physical body. Yet, as you said, the writers of the New Testament said this transformation was already in progress in Paul’s day.

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Cor. 3:18 (NKJV)

If we take the futurist interpretation to heart this must mean that their physical bodies were changing. Maybe they could walk half way through a wall!

We see similar problems everywhere in the New Testament. For example, the early church was exhorted by Paul to put on the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 13:14). What were they doing? Were they literally putting on His glorified body?

Many passages in Romans create severe problems for the futurist.

Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom. 6:6

The body of sin had already been done away with. I guess that means that the first century Christians had no physical bodies! And the list goes on….

Clouds are most often symbolic of the Lord’s presence or if the Lord comes on the clouds, it denotes coming in judgment. Moreover, the word “air” in I Thes. 4 does not mean the air way up there. It means the air in the lungs or the immediate vicinity. Why do you suppose Paul would use this word if he had literal clouds in mind?

Verse 17 of I Thes. 4 is the crux of the matter. “And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” Are we not now with the Lord now that the fullness of the New Covenant is here? The way into the fullness of God’s presence awaited the destruction of the Old Covenant world and the Parousia (Heb 9:8). Now that it has occurred, we will always be with the Lord. Thus Jesus words in John eight ring true.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

As far as Ephesians two is concerned, I think we can look at the state of the first century church in light of their union with Christ. What was past concerning Christ at the time? He had died, and the early believers had died with Him. He was raised and seated in a position above all rule and authority and power. He was reigning over what He would put an end to at the Parousia. Ephesians one and two are a picture of the church in her reigning state at that time. Yet, the scriptures also say that when Christ was revealed they too would be revealed with Him in glory. In other words, their full and final victory awaited the Lord’s appearing.

Many preterists believe that the words “no more sea” in Revelation 21 speak of the loss of distinction between Jew and Gentile that the new covenant brought. The sea is thought to speak of the Gentile nations and the land the Jews.

 

[stumpjumper]

If we take the futurist interpretation to heart this must mean that their physical bodies were changing. Maybe they could walk half way through a wall!

We see similar problems everywhere in the New Testament. For example, the early church was exhorted by Paul to put on the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 13:14). What were they doing? Were they literally putting on His glorified body?

Yes very true.

Paul says that we are "to dress ourselves in Christ." I compare that to the Parable of The Wedding Feast when the king sent out invitations to the select guests and when they turned down the invitation, he sent his messengers out to invite all. One came who was not in the proper attire:

Matthew 22
"But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’

We are to dress like Christ and wear the proper garment or be transformed into his likeness.

 

[Hidden Manna]

The other important question is -where are these events in history? I mean, the return of Jesus seems like a pretty incredible event!

Second Appearing

When we look at the pattern of the Old Covenant system concerning the Priesthood service in the tabernacle of Moses, it becomes clear how Jesus would have fulfilled all things during the time of that Generation.

The high priest did not have to wait 2000 years to come out of the Holy of Holies on the Day of Judgment “Atonement”. If he did not come out within a short period of time there would not have been any salvation for Israel, and the High Priest would have been struck dead.

During that time of waiting for Jesus to appear the second time the early church was saved by faith. They looked forward to their salvation even though they were saved by faith through grace, but their faith was in something still hoped for “second appearing”.


Hebrews 9:28 is generally one of the first verses offered as proof there is to be a yet future return of Jesus. Let us notice a few things about the text.

The inspired writer says in verse 26 Jesus had appeared “once” to put away sin by sacrificing himself. The Greek word translated once is “hapax” and normally means “once for all time,” see Jude 3, I Peter 3:18. The writer then says Jesus “shall appear the second time unto salvation,” vs. 28.

In Luke 21 Jesus spoke of Jerusalem’s coming destruction: “then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory” vs. 27. He said “when these things come to pass then look up and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh” vs. 28. In verse 32 he said it would be in that generation.
The word “redemption” used here is the identical word used in Romans 3:24; 8:23; I Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:7,14, etc. to speak of the redemption of salvation.

With these few facts before us let us draw a conclusion.
One complete salvation DID NOT come at the cross according to the Apostles. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
(Romans 13:11-12). who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 5)
These statement were made some years after the cross. And according to Peter their complete salvation was ready to be revealed in the last time of the old covenant.

Salvation was ratified or confirmed through His Cross [not at the Cross], and consummated in His Parousia. Think about it - if salvation was all in all secured at or on the Cross, then they had no need to further look for its completion.

Christ’s Coming in AD70 completed it. Again, salvation came through or via the Cross of Calvary, the Victory of the Cross had an out working to completion in that generation. This is NOT saying that there was some inherent deficiency in the Cross, NO, it is saying the process of salvation started and finished with the Coming of God in Christ - His First and Second comings being the book-ends of Salvation - both encapsulating the Cross.
Hebrews 9:28 says Jesus would appear a second time, not many times, unto salvation. Jesus said he was going to return at the destruction of Jerusalem and this would be the redemption [salvation] of his Body. (Luke 21:20-28) He said it would be in that generation. (Luke 21:23) Therefore Jesus’ return in the destruction of Jerusalem, for the purpose of redemption, is the return of Hebrews 9:28.

The force of the word “second” as used here is the same as “once;” Christ would not appear again and again. When did our High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? This question seems to be ignored by many Christians today. It is of vital importance, however, because unless our High Priest appears out side of Holy of Holies who can be saved? The Bible explains and interprets itself.

The example is set in the Old Testament. Every year on the Day of Atonement the high priest would enter in to the Presence behind the veil in the Holiest of all. “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 23:27,28)

The High Priest must come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins. If the High Priest does not appear the people have no assurance of salvation. No appearance, no forgiveness.
Since Christ’s coming in 70 was the coming for redemption, and since he was to return only once for salvation per Hebrews 9:28, then Christ’s return in 70 was the final coming of Christ.
This conclusion is corroborated in Hebrews 10:33-39. The writer addresses Christ’s coming in judgment and salvation: “For yet in a very little while, the Coming One will come and he will not delay.” [Tragically, most of God’s people insist he HAS DELAYED! which makes him a false prophet

The Bible has a standard of determining the validity of a prophet! It is Jehovah himself that gave the criteria for determining whether a prophet was true or false; if a prophet’s prediction did not come true he was a false prophet, Deuteronomy 18:15ff. If God does not keep the WHEN part of his promises, he has not kept his promise!

In the margin of your Bible, beside Hebrews 9:28, write Luke 21:28 and Hebrews 10:33-39. These verses give divine commentary on Hebrews 9:28.

Upon what basis can anyone postulate a future coming of Christ? He promised to come [once] again for salvation. He said when it would be; and he kept his word. It is something to ponder.


Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

Verse 11 says, “...shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.” How exactly did Christ “go into heaven?” Verse 9 says, “...a cloud received him out of their sight.”

Now compare these.
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 26:64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

God coming with clouds of glory is a recurring theme throughout Scripture.

Matthew 16:27
“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I have read and read and read the Bible numerous times in search of the answers as to why some people accept the Full Preterist view of prophecy and cannot make sense of any of it. I know there are preterists on this forum and I just want to get an understanding of why you believe what you believe. Any help would be appreciated.

May I share the study of the generation that shall pass away at the end of this age, when the Son of Man returns in glory and cleanses His kingdom of all things that offend?

I did a study of it on this link http://www.christianforums.com/t2351041-was-gods-kingdom-already-established-in-70-ad-preterism-views.html.

"In Matthew 24 Jesus was answering his disciples, who asked him "when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the age..
these things included the destruction of the temple -that's done, so let's continue;

"Of the end of the age";
Jesus was speaking to Messianic Jews whose whole desire was to see the messianic age, when the Messiah ruled the world from restored Jerusalem, as promised, and every single seed of the wicked one would be removed off the earth and the reign of Peace would be over all the earth.
Not done.

Jesus gave a long list of things that would happen, but the end of the age is not yet; This age ends when 'this generation' passes away. The generation that inherits the earth remains, and that generation is the righteous seed, the children of God who have received His word in faith and acted upon it, producing fruit unto righteousness.

'This generation that shall pass away' at His return is the seed of the wicked one, who are children of the devil by being born as his children by believing his lies. they are "the wicked" who "go astray, speaking lies as soon as they are born" -as children of the devil.
Cain was of the wicked and slew his brother; and "all the blood of all the prophets from righteous Abel on will be required of 'this generation'" the generation of the wicked one, his children, who are the children of wrath who shall be cleansed off the earth for the reign of Peace.
God has no grandchildren and the devil has no grandchildren. There is one righteous generation and one wicked generation who are to be harvested; one gathered in the "barn" and one thrown in the fire.


Those born from above are brothers, with one Father; those born of the wicked one are brothers, with one father.


This generation has not passed away, so the age has not ended, Jesus has not come as lightning, with every eye in hell beneath and on earth seeing Him return on His throne of glory (every eye shall see him), to rule His kingdom on earth for the thousand year reign.

Psalm 37 is not fullfilled, for one, and Matthew 24:34 is not fullfilled.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be....
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one]; Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.

The Parable of the Tares Explained
Matthew 13;
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


The disciples, Messianic Jews, knew their Scriptures that promised the restoration of Jerusalem as the throne of the LORD and knew of the promised Messianic Kingdom of Peace over all the earth. When? was answered -when He returns on His throne of glory and the wicked generation passes away and righteousness reigns".

http://www.christianforums.com/t235...0-ad-preterism-views.html&page=7#post20425923

 

[yeshuasavedme]

And more, on this generation that shall pass away -from this earth when He returns in glory to reign from Jerusalem;

"Let's establish the generation of the righteous and the generation of the wicked to see which generation will pass away and which will inherit the earth and when that will be and how it relates to Matthew 24;
"this generation shall not pass away 'until'" -

"this generation shall, therefore, pass away "when" the age ends".

"The age ends when Jesus returns in glory on His throne of glory as lightning, and is seen by every eye as He returns to take possession of His purchased kingdom and reigns for the thousand years of peace". -BTW, His return as lightning on His throne of glory seen by every eye in earth and under the earth (for those who pierced him will see him from their place in Hades, even), is the one single sign of His coming that He gives.

One generation of the righteous of this earth are called the seed of, or sons of, God.
One generation of the wicked of this earth are called the seed of, or sons of, the devil. One inherits the earth, one is purged from the earth at His return just as at the flood of Noah, Jesus said.

When speaking of the first Adam, the generations continue until the seed of Adam is cut off (in the eighth day), from the inheritance of the kingdom, in the new heavens and the new earth; and the first father has grandchildren unto the cutting off: of which cutting off in the eighth day, circumcision is the sign of.

When speaking of the sons of God, or the sons of the devil, there are no grandchildren to either, and both 'sons' are spirit 'born' in a manner of speaking, by believing the words of the one they become the sons of, and bear fruit to their respective fathers.

Adam was created 'male and female', one 'being' (one 'spirit', Malachi 2:15), and told to multiply and fill the earth; and Malachi 2;15 tells us that He sought 'sons' (godly seed), by that creation of the 'one being', 'Adam', by making him/them of the 'one' spirit. Genesis 1;26-28; Genesis 5:2; Malachi 2:15.

Adam is no longer a son for the glory of the Presence of YHWH to inhabit, since the rebellion, because of the defilement of his being with the unclean fruit; and the Last Man, the second Adam, the 'Firstborn' and only begotten (in His humanity, only) of the Father (for Adam is dead), who is YHWH of hosts, second Person, is come in human flesh "to bring many sons to glory".

The Creator will have His human sons to indwell in glory, but by adoption in the New Man's Spirit, that 'One Spirit' of Adoption; for Adam cannot inherit the kingdom that He was cut off from. Those sons are the 'one generation' of the righteous of this earth, and each and every single person in Adam who is adopted in Christ is a 'brother' to Christ and a 'brother' to each other in that same Spirit.
That is the teaching of Scripture -are we agreed, or shall I list the Scriptures that I believe teach that?

He came to bring many sons to glory -to the Presence, for Him to indwell, as sons.
that is His purpose: and those sons will inherit the earth 'in' the Firsborn.


The righteous generation -those born of the good seed, as God's sons;
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God [is] in the generation of the
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Psa 24:6 This [is] the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
Psa 73:15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend [against] the generation of thy children.
Psa 112:2 His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.



Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the wicked generation;
Pro 30:11 [There is] a generation [that] curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.

Pro 30:12 [There is] a generation [that are] pure in their own eyes, and [yet] is not washed from their filthiness.

Pro 30:13 [There is] a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.

Pro 30:14 [There is] a generation, whose teeth [are as] swords, and their jaw teeth [as] knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from [among] men.


Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

 

[Hidden Manna]

May I share the study of the generation that shall pass away at the end of this age, when the Son of Man returns in glory and cleanses His kingdom of all things that offend?

I did a study of it on this link http://www.christianforums.com/t2351041-was-gods-kingdom-already-established-in-70-ad-preterism-views.html.

"In Matthew 24 Jesus was answering his disciples, who asked him "when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the age..
these things included the destruction of the temple -that's done, so let's continue;

"Of the end of the age";
Jesus was speaking to Messianic Jews whose whole desire was to see the messianic age, when the Messiah ruled the world from restored Jerusalem, as promised, and every single seed of the wicked one would be removed off the earth and the reign of Peace would be over all the earth.
Not done.

Jesus gave a long list of things that would happen, but the end of the age is not yet; This age ends when 'this generation' passes away. The generation that inherits the earth remains, and that generation is the righteous seed, the children of God who have received His word in faith and acted upon it, producing fruit unto righteousness.

'This generation that shall pass away' at His return is the seed of the wicked one, who are children of the devil by being born as his children by believing his lies. they are "the wicked" who "go astray, speaking lies as soon as they are born" -as children of the devil.
Cain was of the wicked and slew his brother; and "all the blood of all the prophets from righteous Abel on will be required of 'this generation'" the generation of the wicked one, his children, who are the children of wrath who shall be cleansed off the earth for the reign of Peace.
God has no grandchildren and the devil has no grandchildren. There is one righteous generation and one wicked generation who are to be harvested; one gathered in the "barn" and one thrown in the fire.


Those born from above are brothers, with one Father; those born of the wicked one are brothers, with one father.


This generation has not passed away, so the age has not ended, Jesus has not come as lightning, with every eye in hell beneath and on earth seeing Him return on His throne of glory (every eye shall see him), to rule His kingdom on earth for the thousand year reign.

Psalm 37 is not fullfilled, for one, and Matthew 24:34 is not fullfilled.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be....
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one]; Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.

The Parable of the Tares Explained
Matthew 13;
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


The disciples, Messianic Jews, knew their Scriptures that promised the restoration of Jerusalem as the throne of the LORD and knew of the promised Messianic Kingdom of Peace over all the earth. When? was answered -when He returns on His throne of glory and the wicked generation passes away and righteousness reigns".

http://www.christianforums.com/t235...0-ad-preterism-views.html&page=7#post20425923

ACCORDING TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING these things have not happened because you believe that they will happen literially and physically, however what has happened in the spiritual realm you have failed to see with the eyes of understanding.

Even according to a futuristic view such as you have, you say all sin and wicked people will be dealt with and cease to sin however Isaiah 65:20 speaking of the new heaven and earth has sinner being accursed and in Rev.21 it mentions dogs, murders. liars, etc. etc. are outside of the gates to the city.

You can failed to understand the poetic language the prophets used to describe spiritual things while you wait and wait for literal physical manifestations and signs and wonders.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Understanding Apocalyptic Language

Sometimes we discover statements, which disturb our preconceived ideas and challenge us to rethink long held views. Such is the case with II Thessalonians 2:1-2. If the day of the Lord is, as you and I have always been taught, a time ending, universe destroying event, how in the world could the Thessalonians ever have been convinced, as they obviously were, that the day of the Lord had ALREADY COME?

The same could be said of the passage in II Timothy. If the resurrection is when all the physical graves are opened, when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud with the audible sound of a trumpet: how could any one convince those at Ephesus that it had already happened? The point is, Paul did not challenge the teaching concerning the nature of the day. He only challenged the chronology so these first century saints held another concept or understand of the (day of Lord) then what we have been traditionally taught. Buy what was there understand the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven?
First we must keep in mind that Jesus was a Jew who was familiar with Jewish prophetic thought in the Old Testament (Matt. 5:17, 13:17; Luke 2:41-47, 24:27).

In order to understand how the manifestation of the “Son of man” in the judgment upon Jerusalem was on the “clouds of heaven,” one must understand the language of Israel’s Old Testament prophets. In biblical language “clouds” are symbolic of God’s wrath and judgment against the enemies of God’s people. David said that the Lord delivered him from his enemies while descending on clouds (Psa. 18:3-15). Of course, clouds also speak of God’s divine presence and power.

The Lord said that He would ride into Egypt on a cloud to punish them: Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt. The idol of Egypt will tremble at His presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. (Isa. 19: 1). In the above verse. the Lord did NOT literally ride on a cloud. However. Egypt did receive this judgment at the hands of the Assyrians (Isa. 20:1-6) . When God used the means of a nation or people to carry out a judgment. He was said to come on the clouds.

This apocalyptic language was well known to all in the Jewish and early Christian communities. This language was studied by all the congregation of Israel on the Sabbath in the synagogues, it was spoken in homes and by the rulers of Israel. This is the reason Jesus chose to use apocalyptic language as He described His SOON return to the people of His day. Jesus promised the High Priest. Caiaphas. that he would “see the Son of man... coming on the clouds of heaven” (Matt. 26:63-65). By this statement Jesus was claiming to be divine, Israel’s Messiah, and the Son of God.

This is how Israel’s prophets had said the Son of Man would come in the clouds of heaven (Dan. 7:13-14). Caiaphas knew that the language that Jesus used meant that he, as a ruler of Israel and as the fleshly seed of Abraham who rejected his Messiah, would SEE His return in judgment . A fleshly concept of Jesus coming on the clouds was contrary to the nature of Caiaphas’ understanding of the OT prophets.

The Old Testament idea of the “day of the Lord” was that God acted by means of armies or a nation to judge His enemies (Luke 11:29-32, 19:43-44). The “day of the Lord” was tumultuous, frightening, and awesome—but God did NOT appear visibly. Only the God of Israel could ride the clouds of heaven in judgment (Psa. 104:1-3. Isa. 19:1-3. Joel 2:1-2, Nah. 1-3. Zeph. 1:14-15). This fact was well known to every Jew.

The inspired apostle John stated that the Jews sought the more to kill Jesus because He was making himself equal to God (Jn 5:18, 8:58). These events of God coming in the clouds of heaven for judgment were contained in the ancient scrolls which comforted the early followers of Christ while then, waited for His return in judgment against their enemies (2Thes. 1:3-8). The Bible says that Jesus is the same yesterday. today and forever (Heb. 13:8).

Paul stated that he only said what the prophets and Moses said would take place (Acts 26:21-22). Although futurists today claim that verses such as Acts 1:9-11 predict events in our future. the angels said Jesus would return in the same manner (nature) as He appeared in the Old Testament, that is. in the clouds. David described his deliverance from his enemies in terms which sounded as if the physical universe was destroyed when Jehovah came down from heaven ( 2 Sam. 22)

The “day of the Lord” in the Old Covenant did not destroy planet earth, nor did it end time forever, nor would it do so under the New Covenant (compare Isa. 45:17 and Eph. 3:21). In the Old Covenant governments and nations were destroyed during the “day of the Lord” because they were enemies of God or because the, came up against His chosen people. In the first century in 70 A.D.. the Jewish world was destroyed during the “day of the Lord” because of their inability to accept the prophets of God and the Son of God (Matt.23:34-36).

The destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. put an end to the Old Covenant. In its place, the New Covenant, which began at the Last Supper came into its fullness. The second and final coming of Christ occurred in 70 A.D as Jesus invisibly and spiritually came on the clouds of heaven to judge His enemies and establish His everlasting kingdom.

This is how the church at Thessalonica had mistakenly begun to believe that the coming of Jesus was IMMINENT. They never had the concept of a literal physical coming of Jesus on literal physical cloud. They held the Old Testament understand that Paul taught them. Remember there is not (one words) from Paul were he writes to correct any problems of their understanding (about the nature) of that day. Paul did not challenge the teaching concerning the nature of the day. He only challenged the chronology.
Now here are some questions we should ask.

(1) Were in the New Testament scriptures does the Son of man say his New Testament Parousia was not to be like his Old Testament Parousia?
(2) Were in the Old Testament scriptures does it say anyone literal saw God coming down riding a literal cloud? David said that the Lord delivered him from his enemies while descending on clouds (Psa. 18:3-15). Of course. “clouds” also speak of God’s divine presence and power but no one literally saw him.
(3) Were in the New Testament scripture does Paul say he is (not teaching) these Old Testament concepts of the day of Lord? Remember Paul was also a Jew who familiar with Jewish prophetic thought in the Old Testament.
(4) Were is the scripture does Jesus who is the very same God in the Old Testament say his Parousia in the New Testament is new to be understood as a literal Parousia.

The only thing that comes close is Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen. But notice Zechariah 12:10-14.

The main purpose of Revelations was the revealing of Jesus to the “tribes of the earth (or land).” Now, we must identify, from Scripture, who those “tribes” were. To do that, we must keep in mind this simple rule of interpreting the Bible: let Scripture interpret Scripture. We can do that quite easily by looking at Zechariah 12:10-14.

And I will pour out on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and prayers. And they (i.e., the inhabitants of Jerusalem) shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for Him. As one mourns, for an only son, and will be bitter over Him like the bitterness over the firstborn. In that day (i.e., when they look on Him whom they had pierced) the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, families by families alone; the family of the house of David alone, and their wives alone; the family of Nathan alone, and their wives alone; the family of the house of Levi alone, and their wives alone; the family of Shimei alone, and their wives alone; all the families who are left, family by family alone, and their wives alone.

What (that day). The day of the Lord. Obviously, this is the foundation for John’ “every eye will see Him and those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth (or land) will wail due to Him.” The Hebrew word for “family” is mishpachah and it means “family; by extension a tribe or people.” So, in essence, Zechariah was saying that the “tribes of the land” would mourn for Him whom they had pierced. Who were those “tribes?” “The inhabitants of Jerusalem.” This also helps us identify the “earth” in Revelation 1:7. According to Zechariah, the “earth” is the land of Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would “look on Me whom they had pierced.” And because of that, “the mourning in Jerusalem” would be great. With all of this information, we can see that the “tribes of the earth” in Revelation 1:7 are the nation of Israel. The “earth” is Palestine. The land that would mourn is Jerusalem.

So, the main purpose of Revelation would be to reveal Jesus the nation of Israel. The place of this revealing would be Jerusalem. Lastly, this revealing would be to those who pierced Him, i.e., the Jews. This is not a general reference to the Jewish nation as some commentators state, but to Christ’s contemporary generation, that generation was destroyed in AD 70 by the Roman Legions. Therefore, the book of Revelation must have been written before that event.

I will be more then happy to see any answers to these questions with scripture.
(1) Were in the New Testament scriptures does the Son of man say his New Testament Parousia was not to be like his Old Testament Parousia?
(2) Were in the Old Testament scriptures does it say anyone literal saw God coming down riding a literal cloud? David said that the Lord delivered him from his enemies while descending on clouds (Psa. 18:3-15). Of course. clouds also speak of God’s divine presence and power but no one literally say him.
(3) Were in the New Testament scripture does Paul say he is (not teaching) these Old Testament concepts of the day of Lord? Remember Paul was also a Jew who familiar with Jewish prophetic thought in the Old Testament.
(4) Were in the scripture does Jesus who is the very same God in the Old Testament say his Parousia in the New Testament is new to be understood as a literal Parousia.