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From me to you

Nilla

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:wave:

This isn't coming to you all from me as an only as an Admin but as someone who has lost someone to suicide. 10 years ago my brother chose to end his life.

I know all the questions that comes with it, all the whys, all the questions "could I have done more, what if I did or said.." etc etc. Questions that don't have an answer.. at least I haven't found any yet. Maybe some day I will. I found out about my brothers death through one of the pastors in my church, I can't imagine the pain and worry I would have gone through knowing he had tried something and not knowing for sure what was going on. So my heart goes out to you who did go through that.

The reason I started this thread is for you all to have a thread to vent, share your feelings about the situation. Maybe get some healing and knowing that we do understand, but we can't keep certain things out in the open due to the safety of others.

If you want to ask me how we as staff deal with situations like these, I'll do my best to answer. But please understand that I can't go into details about certain situations, it will all be in general terms.

:hug:
Nilla
 

Nilla

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I have a question:

Whom does Christianforums consult when making policies concerning how displays of mental health issues will be handled like suicide or threats of suicide or threats of injury to others?

The policy that staff goes by has been in place since I joined staff. The guidelines in Recovery forum is updated when needed. Old links that don't work etc.

If you go to Recovery area there are guidelines posted, such as this one in Depression.

In there is says:
Recovery is a place for Christian peer support and advice, not as a substitute for professional care, nor a place for ethical/moral discussions.
Recovery Staff feel very strongly that members need to seek out real life licensed professional services and local pastoral care in addition to asking for support and advice here.

There's also a section about suicidal posts:

Because of the risk of triggering suicidal thoughts in others, we remove threats and/or endorsement of suicide. This includes posting that another member others know have killed him/herself. If you are having thoughts about suicide but have no immediate plans or intentions your posts may be able to show.

We want to allow you to have support from others but we must be careful not to have posts that might trigger others. Staff will err on the side of safety and caution for other members in these situations. Please utilize local professional services such as calling 911, going to the emergency room or to a local medical clinic.

When Staff remove these suicidal posts or self harm posts of any kind from view we are trying to encourage the members to seek professional services in their local area and provide phone numbers to local crisis lines if available.

As you can see here we always refer member to the professionals since that's not us. This comes from the Recovery area but threats of suicide or suicidal thoughts are treated the same no matter where on CF they are posted. We also have ordained Chaplains that members can talk to at times, I know that they also encourage to seek help "in real life" (so to speak)

Since this were in place before I joined staff I can't tell you who was consulted.
 
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memoriesbymichelle

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This includes posting that another member others know have killed him/herself. If you are having thoughts about suicide but have no immediate plans or intentions your posts may be able to show.

How then are people supposed to let others know if we are not allowed to say if someone killed themselves? None of us want to have to PM every single person individually, we might forget someone. I know you did not make the rules but I "heard" there was dialog going on because of our situation on how to handle it in the future.

And I disagree with the way this situation was handled. The MOD (whoever they are since they haven't come forward) could have made a thread to explain that the other thread is gone even if they could not tell us why.
The Mod took away his last words from us and I for one, would like to re-read them. It wasn't fair, it wasn't right and it made it worse for me.
 
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sedonarose

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Thank you for your post, Nilla. You are the only moderator who has stepped up and addressed things in a professional manner and I really appreciate that. Even though I'm sad that we can't keep Dan's last post (like Michelle I would really like to re-read it and have it here to remember him by), I understand that it's a touchy subject and I will respect staff's decision to remove it. I do, however, believe it is damaging to disallow people from posting their true feelings and reaching out for help simply because it may "trigger" someone who is suicidal. As blackribbon said in another thread, if someone is close enough that discussions like these would trigger them to commit the act, then the decision has already been made. Keeping them from expressing their feelings can only do harm. Just my opinion. Also, I really feel like in the future (if God forbid this happens again) moderators should be a lot more sensitive in their interactions with forum members. I can sense a lot of resentment here because of the way this was handled, and I don't feel it should have to be that way. This forum shouldn't be staff against members. I understand there have to be rules, but there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of enforcing those rules...
 
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blackribbon

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I have some minimal suicide prevent training and the number one thing in preventing a suicide is to find out who has a planned method and what it is. The people with a planned method are at highest risk for actually carrying it out...and without knowing about the plan, no one understands how to intercede. On a forum like this...and being related to our "Christian" name, I would hope that we are here to help and befriend people who are very lonely and at very low places in their lives. We can't do that if the posts get erased before the rest of us can sign on and recognize the pain and risk. It also takes time to build up trust with someone to get to the point where you actually can get them to give out the information necessary to provide help when we are working with anonymous people.

I believe that Christianforums needs to consult a crisis organization and revisit their policies. Doing what "feels right" by a bunch of people with no training in this area or using the general policy of "we are not professionals, if you need help, contact one" is also not a Christian viewpoint...though it may be legally "safe". People who are hurting that bad aren't usually going to looking for that kind of help without constant encouragement...if they are going to at all. If they have posted, they are asking for help RIGHT NOW and if it is here, then this is who they are asking help from. Erasing their posts or the details of their pain only shows them that they are correct in assuming that no one cares and they aren't worth listening to.

And yes, on a forum specifically for a named mental health issue like depression, anxiety, PSTD, grief....etc....need to be monitored more carefully because the members are more in a delicate state ... but erasing them isn't the answer either...I would hope that these forums are monitored by a trained someone who can actually reach out to the hurting individuals before "erasing" their pain. However, on a general talk like this one, most of us are not quite to delicate or as likely to be triggered.

I do appreciate you for talking to us. It is hard to be a grown adult and be treated like we are children who don't know what is best for us by some unknown entities. We do need to know if one of our friends has died. That is common respect. Maybe even a simple post that has said that "The forum is sad to announce that they have learned that XXX had passed away by his own hand. In respect for his family, we cannot pass on any more details. XXX-XXX-XXXX is a number to contact if you are feeling suicidal. We do care." and you can post any national suicide hotline phone number...it doesn't have to be associated with Christianforum.

Can I say that your "mod hat" is the most respectful one I have seen in this ordeal. I also thank you for talking to us like adults.
 
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Nilla

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I just wanted you all to know that I've read what you've said and before I reply I'm going to check into some things.

If I don't get back to this tonight it's not because I'm not willing to but that my time just wasn't enough. Being in Sweden I'm six hours ahead most of you and I need to be at work at 6.30am tomorrow so bedtime is early.
 
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mjmcmillan

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One thing to keep in mind is that here on Mature Singles, we're not children who need protecting from the hard bumps in life. I, for example, am a whole lot closer to 60 than I am to 16, so I have the "been there, done that" Tee-shirt. Probably none of us on this sub-forum are under 30, and there are a couple of people here who do have or are acquiring professional credentials in the healthcare fields.

On forums for the teen set it does seem appropriate to do some heavy editing. For some reason suicides seem to run in packs in the teen years, one will trigger others. Even then, heavy-handed moderating may do more harm than good-- if a person gets the message that it's not safe to "speak" without fear that they will get edited/deleted/possibly banned outright, they'll clam up and it may be impossible then to stop what becomes a runaway train. How can you stop a suicide when the person learns to keep his/her mouth shut and won't tell anybody what they're planning? Communication is the only tool we have to work with, remove that and it's all up for grabs.
 
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Nilla

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One thing to keep in mind is that here on Mature Singles, we're not children who need protecting from the hard bumps in life. I, for example, am a whole lot closer to 60 than I am to 16, so I have the "been there, done that" Tee-shirt. Probably none of us on this sub-forum are under 30, and there are a couple of people here who do have or are acquiring professional credentials in the healthcare fields.

On forums for the teen set it does seem appropriate to do some heavy editing. For some reason suicides seem to run in packs in the teen years, one will trigger others. Even then, heavy-handed moderating may do more harm than good-- if a person gets the message that it's not safe to "speak" without fear that they will get edited/deleted/possibly banned outright, they'll clam up and it may be impossible then to stop what becomes a runaway train. How can you stop a suicide when the person learns to keep his/her mouth shut and won't tell anybody what they're planning? Communication is the only tool we have to work with, remove that and it's all up for grabs.
I understand what you mean, the issue is that even though that this forum is for mid-thirties and up all members can still read in here. That's why we treat all these situations in the same way.

I know in some places it is and comes across as heavy handed though.
 
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Nilla

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This includes posting that another member others know have killed him/herself. If you are having thoughts about suicide but have no immediate plans or intentions your posts may be able to show.

How then are people supposed to let others know if we are not allowed to say if someone killed themselves? None of us want to have to PM every single person individually, we might forget someone. I know you did not make the rules but I "heard" there was dialog going on because of our situation on how to handle it in the future.

And I disagree with the way this situation was handled. The MOD (whoever they are since they haven't come forward) could have made a thread to explain that the other thread is gone even if they could not tell us why.
The Mod took away his last words from us and I for one, would like to re-read them. It wasn't fair, it wasn't right and it made it worse for me.
It can still be talked about in the way that you heard/read someone passed away.. it's the way it happened that can't be discussed.
 
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Nilla

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I have some minimal suicide prevent training and the number one thing in preventing a suicide is to find out who has a planned method and what it is. The people with a planned method are at highest risk for actually carrying it out...and without knowing about the plan, no one understands how to intercede. On a forum like this...and being related to our "Christian" name, I would hope that we are here to help and befriend people who are very lonely and at very low places in their lives. We can't do that if the posts get erased before the rest of us can sign on and recognize the pain and risk. It also takes time to build up trust with someone to get to the point where you actually can get them to give out the information necessary to provide help when we are working with anonymous people.

I believe that Christianforums needs to consult a crisis organization and revisit their policies. Doing what "feels right" by a bunch of people with no training in this area or using the general policy of "we are not professionals, if you need help, contact one" is also not a Christian viewpoint...though it may be legally "safe". People who are hurting that bad aren't usually going to looking for that kind of help without constant encouragement...if they are going to at all. If they have posted, they are asking for help RIGHT NOW and if it is here, then this is who they are asking help from. Erasing their posts or the details of their pain only shows them that they are correct in assuming that no one cares and they aren't worth listening to.

And yes, on a forum specifically for a named mental health issue like depression, anxiety, PSTD, grief....etc....need to be monitored more carefully because the members are more in a delicate state ... but erasing them isn't the answer either...I would hope that these forums are monitored by a trained someone who can actually reach out to the hurting individuals before "erasing" their pain. However, on a general talk like this one, most of us are not quite to delicate or as likely to be triggered.

I do appreciate you for talking to us. It is hard to be a grown adult and be treated like we are children who don't know what is best for us by some unknown entities. We do need to know if one of our friends has died. That is common respect. Maybe even a simple post that has said that "The forum is sad to announce that they have learned that XXX had passed away by his own hand. In respect for his family, we cannot pass on any more details. XXX-XXX-XXXX is a number to contact if you are feeling suicidal. We do care." and you can post any national suicide hotline phone number...it doesn't have to be associated with Christianforum.

Can I say that your "mod hat" is the most respectful one I have seen in this ordeal. I also thank you for talking to us like adults.
We are in the process of looking over the guidelines.

One thing that's important to remember though is that CF is not a crisis center/forum. That's why we always refer them to seek help outside of CF. Getting support is awesome and should happen, don't get me wrong but the actual counseling should not take place on CF.
 
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Nilla

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I know we didn't handle this situation in a very good way. I'm sorry for that.

The reason for that is that we've never encountered this before and even if we would have had some guidelines in place I'm sure that we would have found ourselves in unfamiliar territory anyway.

Please know that our goal in this has never been to hurt anyone.
 
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blackribbon

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We are in the process of looking over the guidelines.

One thing that's important to remember though is that CF is not a crisis center/forum. That's why we always refer them to seek help outside of CF. Getting support is awesome and should happen, don't get me wrong but the actual counseling should not take place on CF.

No, this is not a place to get counseling...but it is a place where people with known issues do come since you have areas specifically for people who are in delicate mindsets...hence, the depression, PTSD, grief areas. And being Christian, we should always be prepared to handle the hurt people when God sends them our way. A suicidal person needs help now. Counseling is not always easy to come by...and often it can't wait. However, it takes time to building up enough trust to get a person to disclose enough personal info to be able to find them to help. If the moderators swoop in and erase the necessary information and the sense of safety, no one will be able to find the person to get them some help.

And to be honest, as a member, I haven't haven't met moderator until you that I really felt like I'd have reason to trust. Mostly, they just swoop in with their big cuties Mod Hat posts and tell us "no, no, no...you have been bad". Not exactly the people it would even dawn on me to seek out to find help for a fellow member in crisis.

I am hoping that the moderators really are getting trained outside help in how to handle these situations and from a Christian worldview (and not just what is the best plan to be protected legally).

You know..I've talked to a lot of deeply hurting people on this forum and never once have seen a moderator post anything with counseling referral information suggestion or crisis hotline numbers. Maybe I've missed them.
 
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