From Gods Tables of Stone to the Fleshy Tables in our Hearts

I am not sure how this discussion morphed into one about evolution and creation.
This should be about the new creation of God mingled with man who writes Himself INTO man
through the new covenant ministry.

reddogs said:

you have to believe and turn to Him, and follow His Word, not mans ideas of evolution and 'tradition'....

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SDA ideas and traditions are also human ideas. Ellen White was a human. You follow your man ideas, I follow mine, thats all right.

reddogs said:

As Israel was freed from the slavery of Egypt, all of spiritual Israel have been saved from the bondage of sin by Christ and are given the tablets which go into their hearts.

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Why do you say they are given "tablets which go into their hearts?"

Thier hearts of the recipients of thenew covenant ministry as tablets are already there. It is the Spirit as living ink which
writes on the existing already fleshly tablets of the heart.

Since you are being manifested that you are a letter of Christ ministered by us, inscribed not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone but in tablets of hearts of flesh. (2 Cor. 3:3)

daq said:

It is "the oldness of the letter", which was the handwritten dogmas, decrees, ordinances, and injunctions of the Sanhedrin, Chief Priests, Elders, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were against us,

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This is not it says. It is that which God gave to Moses at Sinai which was enscribed on stone tablets daq.

. . . not in tablets of stone (2 Cor. 3:3c)
Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, (2 Cor.3:7a)

Compare:

And Jehovah said to Moses, Come up to Me at the top of the mountain, and be there; and I will give you the tablets of stone with the law and the commandment, which I have inscribed for their instruction. (Exo. 24:12)

And He declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them upon two tablets of stone. (Deut. 4:13)

daq said:

and which brought death because they were outward, physical, natural minded interpretations of the Torah, which is spiritual: and yet their letters or "written code", full of their dogmas and decrees, were binding upon the whole nation of Yisrael: nobody had a choice in the matter in first century Yisrael.

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It may bother you but the ministry of death and ministry of condemnation there is that which was
given by God to Moses for Israel inscribed on the tablets of stone.

No, it is not the extraneous add ons from the Pharisees and scribes in latter times, though they did do these additions.
And the Lord Jesus rebuked them for doing so.

You cannot use this as the substitute to what the Apostle Paul means - the Ten Commandments and that which
was written by the finger of God on stone tablets.

Whatever illness you are attempting to remedy, your medicine is worse than the sickness.

daq said:

If you were carnal, as Paul says in Romans 7:14, as a natural man when you first entered into the faith: then it is you who needed to be renewed and reformed, not that the Torah needed you to come along abolish it for your own perceived benefit.

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Your medicine is not good. And you cannot make it good by condemning all who do not TAKE it as natural minded.

Here again the law which Paul says IS spiritual is that good and righteous and holy law given to Moses by God.
For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am fleshy, sold under sin. (Rom. 7:14)
So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

We have to grow up now and see the things through New Testament eyes of the apostles.
The law was a child conductor or instructing tutor leading us the grace.

The good, spiritual, holy, righteous law of God awakened a stronger evil personified person in the
fallen body of man. This stronger person drags the well intending law keep down and AWAY from keeping God's good law.

For what I work out, I do not acknowledge; for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do.
But if what I do not will, this I do, I agree with the law that it is good.

Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me.
For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not. (Rom. 7:15-18)

It is time for us to grow up now and fully avail ourselves of the Spirit of Christ who is the strongest of all.

There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom.8:1,2)
The law of sin and of death is not the law of Moses. It is the law of sin in the members of the fallen body of man.
But I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? (7:23,24)

daq said:

If you believe the Torah is just a bunch of outward, physical, natural minded handwritten dogmas, decrees, and regulations, then you are worse off than the Pharisees because you only appear to prefer it that way so that you can justify your own desire to set aside the Torah-Instruction of the Father for His children, instead of trying to keep what you know you cannot do in your flesh.

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The comments not addressed to me. But I reply.

I believe what Paul exactly SAID.
So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

I believe what Paul WROTE.
I agree with the law that it is good. (v.16b)

I believe what God inspired Paul to WRITE.
For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, (v.22)

It is not genuine for you to portray those who understand Paul is pointing us now to the
Spirit of Christ indwelling to accuse us of despising the law of God.

And if some did give you that impression, your medicine will not help.
The better understanding and experience of Paul's walk in the Spirit will help.

This old ministry good and holy and spiritual and righteous law has now become
"the ministry of condemnation" and "the ministry of death" and one of fading glory.

You are going to have to accept that that old covenant ministry could now be
surpassed, superceded by the more glorious new covenant.
That is by the ministering of the living God as Spirit into man's being.

oikonomia said:

This is not it says. It is that which God gave to Moses at Sinai which was enscribed on stone tablets daq.

. . . not in tablets of stone (2 Cor. 3:3c)
Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, (2 Cor.3:7a)

Compare:

And Jehovah said to Moses, Come up to Me at the top of the mountain, and be there; and I will give you the tablets of stone with the law and the commandment, which I have inscribed for their instruction. (Exo. 24:12)

And He declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them upon two tablets of stone. (Deut. 4:13)

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Wrong passage background context. Study the actual passage Paul quotes from and start with an extremely literal translation like the YLT or the LRV. Better yet, I will post one of them for you, highlight exactly what you truly need to study, and give you a head start on some other passages from the Prophets to lead you in your study.

Basically what the following means is that "your way" is what is done away with if "your way" of understanding the Torah is the same as the outward, carnal, physical understandings and teachings of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes in the Gospel accounts.

And that is because their way is what Paul means by the old covenant in 2 Cor 3, their interpretations and teachings in letters of injunctions and dogmas, which were binding on the whole nation, enforcing their interpretations of the Torah upon the people: for that is what it means in the Exo 34 passage from which Paul is expounding.

Exodus 34:10-24 LSV
10 And He says, "Behold, I am making a covenant. I do wonders before all your people, which have not been done in all the earth, or in any nation, and all the people in whose midst you [are in] have seen the work of YHWH, for it [is] fearful—that which I am doing with you.
11 Observe for yourself that which I am commanding you today. Behold, I am casting out from before you the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite;
12 take heed to yourself lest you make a covenant with the inhabitant of the land into which you are going, lest it become a snare in your midst;
13 for you break down their altars, and you shatter their standing pillars, and you cut down its Asherim;
14 for you do not bow yourselves to another god—for YHWH, whose Name [is] Zealous, is a zealous God.
15 Lest you make a covenant with the inhabitant of the land, and they have gone whoring after their gods, and have sacrificed to their gods, and [one] has called to you, and you have eaten of his sacrifice,
16 and you have taken of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters have gone whoring after their gods, and have caused your sons to go whoring after their gods;
17 you do not make a molten god for yourself.
18 You keep the Celebration of Unleavened Things; [for] seven days you eat unleavened things, as I have commanded you, at an appointed time, [in] the month of Abib: for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.
19 All opening a womb [are] Mine, and every firstling of your livestock born a male, [whether] ox or sheep;
20 and you ransom the firstling of a donkey with a lamb; and if you do not ransom, then you have beheaded it; you ransom every firstborn of your sons, and they do not appear before Me empty.
21 [For] six days you work, and on the seventh day you rest; in plowing-time and in harvest you rest.
22 And you observe [the] Celebration of Weeks for yourself, of [the] first-fruits of wheat-harvest; and the Celebration of Ingathering at the revolution of the year.
23 Three times in a year all your males appear before the Lord YHWH, God of Israel;
24 for I dispossess nations from before you, and have enlarged your border, and no man desires your land in your going up to appear before your God YHWH three times in a year.

For yourself ... for yourself ... for yourself ...

The commandments above which were written in the second set of tablets are not the same as what was written in the first set of tablets which were broken. These commandments are the LOGOS understanding for the first set of the Ten Words.

Amos 5:21-27 KJV
21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.

Your ... your ... your ...

Isaiah 1:10-15 KJV
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Your ... your ... your ...

Logos is required: otherwise your way will also be abolished.

daq said:

Wrong passage background context. Study the actual passage Paul quotes from and start with an extremely literal translation like the YLT or the LRV. Better yet, I will post one of them for you, highlight exactly what you truly need to study, and give you a head start on some other passages from the Prophets to lead you in your study.

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Please don't bluff me daq.
The translations I quote to you are fine.

daq said:

Basically what the following means is that "your way" is what is done away with if "your way" of understanding the Torah is the same as the outward, carnal, physical understandings and teachings of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes in the Gospel accounts.

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The teachings of the "Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes" which were NOT delivered
at Mt. Sinai on stone tablets is not what is Paul speaks of in Second Corinthians.

That is a big fat strawman argument erected by you.
In Second Corinthians the ministry of death is that written by the finger of God which Moses brought down from the mountain.

Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, came about in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory which was being done away with, (2 Cor. 3:7)

The additions good or bad added LATTER were NOT brought down from the mountain by the shinny faced Moses.

And appealing to multitudes of OT passages in which God rebukes Israel for their wayward ways does not establish
your revisionism.

Moses came down the mountain to Israel with the shinning face with the Ten Commandments engraved on stone tablets.

oikonomia said:

Please don't bluff me daq.
The translations I quote to you are fine.

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I said that to you out of love, to help you, and because I know what your translation says.

Exodus 34 Recovery Version
Ex 34:18 You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.

Your translation omits "for yourself" which belongs at the end of the statement I have highlighted and underlined in your version quoted above. That is not correct, and is the same thing the KJV does in this passage, and it is an attempt to harmonize the text with what is stated in the companion passage. However the companion passage is given BEFORE the golden calf incident and the Exodus 34 statement given is AFTER the golden calf incident. Do you not therefore have the same veil over your heart and mind when you read this covenant that Paul speaks about in the passage in question? Why can you not see that the Father has turned them over to themselves at this point because of their idolatry and spiritual fornication? This is expounded further in the Amos passage which I also quoted to you above, and Stephen quotes Amos and expounds it even further in Acts 7, saying that Elohim gave them up to worship the host of heaven when they did this, (Acts 7:41-43). Why do you not know the scripture? Did I not say that Logos is required?

The following is the difference between the two companion statements, and it is not supposed to be harmonized, or swept under the rug, as your translation does, for that only serves to blind you to what is actually written therein. Every word and particle counts, and especially when two companion passages say two different things: this is for our learning and understanding, and that is one of the ways the scripture teaches us critically important things.

Exodus 23:12-17 LSV
12 Six days you do your work, and on the seventh day you rest, so that your ox and your donkey rest, and the son of your handmaid and the sojourner is refreshed;
13 and in all that which I have said to you—take heed; and you do not mention the name of other gods; it is not heard on your mouth.
14 You keep a celebration to Me three times in a year:
15 you keep the Celebration of Unleavened Things (you eat unleavened things [for] seven days as I have commanded you, at the time appointed [in] the month of Abib; for in it you have come forth out of Egypt, and you do not appear [in] My presence empty);
16 and the Celebration of Harvest, the first-fruits of your works which you sow in the field; and the Celebration of the Ingathering in the outgoing of the year, in your gathering your works out of the field.
17 Three times in a year all your males appear before [the] face of the Lord YHWH.

Exodus 34:21-23 LSV
21 [For] six days you work, and on the seventh day you rest; in plowing-time and in harvest you rest.
22 And you observe [the] Celebration of Weeks for yourself, of [the] first-fruits of wheat-harvest; and the Celebration of Ingathering at the revolution of the year.
23 Three times in a year all your males appear before the Lord YHWH, God of Israel;

They are companion passages but they are not the same because the idolators are being turned over to themselves after the golden calf incident in Exodus 34. If they would have listened to Mosheh and had chosen the Life and the Good then their way would have been pleasing to the Father: but they chose death instead, and that pertains to their understanding of the Torah and even all scripture. Now therefore you'll need to add Deuteronomy 30 to your study list and choose the Life yourself also, for their way was done away with: and if you also understand the Torah according to their old way, then your way will also be done away with just the same because their way has already been proven to be the wrong way. The Torah is spiritual, Romans 7:14.

daq said:

I said that to you out of love, to help you, and because I know what your translation says.

Exodus 34 Recovery Version
Ex 34:18 You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.

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Exodus 34:18 was not in my discussion.
While your amiable attitude is noted, I don't expect you to just hunt through the RcV for passage redenderings to take issue with.
Exodus 34:18 was not a part of the discussion.

Exodus 24:12 and Deut. 4:13 WERE a part of the discussion. I will skip over your beef about the RcV's rendering of Exo. 34:18.

daq said:

Why can you not see that the Father has turned them over to themselves at this point because of their idolatry and spiritual fornication? This is expounded further in the Amos passage which I also quoted to you above, and Stephen quotes Amos and expounds it even further in Acts 7, saying that Elohim gave them up to worship the host of heaven when they did this, (Acts 7:41-43). Why do you not know the scripture? Did I not say that Logos is required?

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All you are really doing is reinforcing what Paul said about the "ministry of condemnation" of the Mosiac Law.

Sure, all throughout the major and minor prophets God is rebuking the Israelites for many things.
Running off to Amos to speak of how unhappy God was or running off to another OT prophet to show God's displeasure
doesn't change what Paul teaches in Second Corinthian.

You undertstand what a "red herring" fallacy is?

Now the worshipping of the hosts of heaven (which of course angered God) is NOT what Paul means as the letters
inscribed in tablets of stone brought down from the mountain by the shinny faced Moses.

daq said:

Exodus 34:21-23 LSV
21 [For] six days you work, and on the seventh day you rest; in plowing-time and in harvest you rest.
22 And you observe [the] Celebration of Weeks for yourself, of [the] first-fruits of wheat-harvest; and the Celebration of Ingathering at the revolution of the year.
23 Three times in a year all your males appear before the Lord YHWH, God of Israel;

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This is all besides the point.
"For yourselves" or otherwise, this is all a red herring argument. It is very flimsy.

daq said:

They are companion passages but they are not the same because the idolators are being turned over to themselves after the golden calf incident in Exodus 34.

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Yes, God was unhappy with Israel at the golden calf incident. You're throwing up hand waving distractions.

Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, came about in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory which was being done away with, (2 Cor. 3:7)

daq said:

The Torah is spiritual, Romans 7:14.

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Tell me something I do not already know. Since I have been writing to you here and elsewhere I have repeatedly
pointed out Paul's positive words about the genuine Yahweh delivered Torah. You cannot hand wave to other things
God was unhappy with to reinterpret Paul's teaching in the New Testament.

Face it daq. You are embarressed by the Apostle Paul's teaching and munipulate it to say something else.

That which was good ironically turned out to do harm because it awakened the SIN nature to rebel
on general principle. "[T]hat which is GOOD " aroused the sin nature.

Did then that which is good become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin did, that it might be shown to be sin by working out death in me through that which is good, that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. (Rom. 7:13)

daq said:

Do you not therefore have the same veil over your heart and mind when you read this covenant that Paul speaks about in the passage in question? Why can you not see that the Father has turned them over to themselves at this point because of their idolatry and spiritual fornication?

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Okay, it is good to bring this down to new testament PRACTICALITY.

I have veils that cover my mind. But thank God I know how to have the veils whatever they may be, taken away.
Whenever . . . WHEN EVER the heart of man TURNS to the Lord Jesus as a living and available Person, the veil (of any sort) is taken away.

Actually, the veil is the heart turned away from the Lord Jesus.
The Lord Jesus is the Spirit. What? That's what the apostles wants the Corinthians to know.

But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Cor. 3:16,17)

When we learn that Christ is risen, is AVAILABLE, can be touched and can be known, we need to turn our heart
towards the Lord. Again, practically for us the veils is the human heart turn away from Jesus Christ.

God's plan is to take us from one degree of glory to another to another to another through successive stages
by the Lord Spirit. So we need a life of ever turning our inward gaze to His glorious face within our spirit.
Logging more time in beholding and reflecting the living Christ we are renewed in our minds and changed by degrees
to His image.

Now this glory at present is concealed and hidden. It is not yet manifested what we will be.
But one day the inner hidden glory will burst forth. And will see Him even as He is and reflect Him as He is.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is. And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is pure. (1 John 3:2,3 RcV)

When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:4)

This is an eternal unfading and everlasting glory coming from within us.
If you were expecting me to put up a fight that I have no veils, I have no thought of defending myself.
What I DO know, thanks to brother Paul, is to how to have the veils over my heart and mind REMOVED

When the heart turns to the dear Lord Jesus, the living and available resurrected One who is Spirit, the veil is removed.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit.

oikonomia said:

Exodus 34:18 was not in my discussion.
While your amiable attitude is noted, I don't expect you to just hunt through the RcV for passage redenderings to take issue with.
Exodus 34:18 was not a part of the discussion.

Exodus 24:12 and Deut. 4:13 WERE a part of the discussion. I will skip over your beef about the RcV's rendering of Exo. 34:18.

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If you will not hear Paul and learn from the scripture he is expounding then you will surely not hear me.

daq said:

Wrong passage background context. Study the actual passage Paul quotes from and start with an extremely literal translation like the YLT or the LRV. Better yet, I will post one of them for you, highlight exactly what you truly need to study, and give you a head start on some other passages from the Prophets to lead you in your study.

Click to expand...

daq said:

If you will not hear Paul and learn from the scripture he is expounding then you will surely not hear me.

Click to expand...

I asked you before nicely - please do not attempt to bluff me.
Your appeal to supposedly more literal translations amount to a thin tissue of distracting excuses.

oikonomia said:

Okay, it is good to bring this down to new testament PRACTICALITY.

I have veils that cover my mind. But thank God I know how to have the veils whatever they may be, taken away.
Whenever . . . WHEN EVER the heart of man TURNS to the Lord Jesus as a living and available Person, the veil (of any sort) is taken away.

Actually, the veil is the heart turned away from the Lord Jesus.
The Lord Jesus is the Spirit. What? That's what the apostles wants the Corinthians to know.

But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Cor. 3:16,17)

When we learn that Christ is risen, is AVAILABLE, can be touched and can be known, we need to turn our heart
towards the Lord. Again, practically for us the veils is the human heart turn away from Jesus Christ.

God's plan is to take us from one degree of glory to another to another to another through successive stages
by the Lord Spirit. So we need a life of ever turning our inward gaze to His glorious face within our spirit.
Logging more time in beholding and reflecting the living Christ we are renewed in our minds and changed by degrees
to His image.

Now this glory at present is concealed and hidden. It is not yet manifested what we will be.
But one day the inner hidden glory will burst forth. And will see Him even as He is and reflect Him as He is.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is. And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is pure. (1 John 3:2,3 RcV)

When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:4)

This is an eternal unfading and everlasting glory coming from within us.
If you were expecting me to put up a fight that I have no veils, I have no thought of defending myself.
What I DO know, thanks to brother Paul, is to how to have the veils over my heart and mind REMOVED

When the heart turns to the dear Lord Jesus, the living and available resurrected One who is Spirit, the veil is removed.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit.

Click to expand...

That veil of which Paul speaks is an analogy taken from Exodus 34, which you refuse to even look upon, much less study, as was strongly suggested to you. Instead you seem to be avoiding the background context for 2Cor 3 like a plague. Why is that? Why do you need to go to a different covenant and quote things from the first covenant which was already broken at the point from where Paul is expounding, which is Exodus 34? Apparently you find a need to do so because you want the whole Torah to be done away with: and because you view the whole Torah to be done away with, you are by default Torah illiterate, for that is what happens when a person convinces himself/herself that the Torah no longer applies: for if the Torah is done away with, what need is there to study it, (and I do mean study, not just casual reading).

Should a Torah illiterate person be condemning others for observing the Torah in a board such as this? You do not appear to understand any of Paul's writings or the things he is expounding, and that is because you have set aside many of the background contexts for the things he teaches and preaches, and because of that you apparently get to make up your own logos-reasoning for his words and insert your own logos into his writings and teachings. That's simply what happens when someone sets aside background context: it's just as bad as a judge who refuses to look at critical evidence in a trial. You've put the Torah on trial and have ruled against the Word of the Father without examining all of the critical evidence. Will Paul himself accuse you for misconstruing his words? The Master says to those who misconstrued the words of Mosheh that Mosheh accuses them, (John 5:45-47).

daq said:

That veil of which Paul speaks is an analogy taken from Exodus 34, which you refuse to even look upon, much less study, as was strongly suggested to you.

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I know the background is Exodus 34 - particulary verses 29-35.

daq said:

Instead you seem to be avoiding the background context for 2Cor 3 like a plague.

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The accusation is dismissed as a slandering lie.

daq said:

Why is that? Why do you need to go to a different covenant and quote things from the first covenant which was already broken at the point from where Paul is expounding, which is Exodus 34?

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This makes little sense.

Second Corinthians is the oracles of God just like Genesis or Exodus.
The New Testament is not some faulty error prone commentary on the Hebrew Bible.
The New Testament are the oracles of God.

the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, (2 Cor. 3:7)
If you don't believe that about which Moses received then you are in unbelief of God's word.

the ministry of condemnation, (v.9)
If you don't believe Paul's word in the New Testament about what Moses brought down from the mountian
you are in unbelief of both Second Corinthians and Exodus 34.

for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (v.6)
That is the word of God. Its about Exodus 34.

Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart; (v.15)
It says "when MOSES is read" not when the reading of Pharisees' added traditions are read.

for until the present day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant, it not being unveiled to them that the veil is being done away with in Christ. (v.14)
This is the word of God given to us in the New Testament. It says "at the reading of the old covenant" not at the reading of some
other added religious traditions. Not there does it say that.

How shall the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory? (v.8)
While you are trying to exalt the law of Moses higher than the Son of God, the ministry of the Spirit of Christ into
people is far more glorious. It is not fading. It is not temporary. It is eternal. You don't believe it. You cannot believe
the Son of God is higher than the law inscribed on the tablets.

For also that which has been glorified in this respect has not been glorified on account of the surpassing glory. (v.10)
You debate as if it is impossible for there to be a surpassing glory to what Moses came down the mountain with
in Exodus 34.

To Galatians -
So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith.
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:24-26)

That is the word of God. If you don't receive it and you say we are still under a child-conductor (the law) you're
in unbelief of God's word.

To Romans -
So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. (Rom. 7:4)
You rebel and do not believe we have been made dead to the law. Even worse you don't believe anyone made dead to the law
could possibly bear fruit to God.

But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter. (Rom.7:6)
This is the word of God. You may have no experience of serving in newness of spirit.
And you don't believe new covenant believers could bear fruit to God without being under the oldness of letter.

daq said:

Apparently you find a need to do so because you want the whole Torah to be done away with: and because you view the whole Torah to be done away with, you are by default Torah illiterate, for that is what happens when a person convinces himself/herself that the Torah no longer applies: for if the Torah is done away with, what need is there to study it, (and I do mean study, not just casual reading).

Click to expand...

You need this accusation to comfort your self righteous attitude of you alone keeping what Moses brought.
The word of God says -
For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

The law of Moses was given.
Grace and reality CAME with the coming of Jesus Christ.

It is not "The law was given through Moses. Then the law was given again through Jesus Christ."
And you accuse me that my gospel is not the New Testament gospel?

Look at your posts. Look how many times you even write Jesus Christ compared to the number
of times you write about the law. You misaim.

daq said:

Should a Torah illiterate person be condemning others for observing the Torah in a board such as this? You do not appear to understand any of Paul's writings or the things he is expounding, and that is because you have set aside many of the background contexts for the things he teaches and preaches,

Click to expand...

I know the Bible better than you do.
And the warning is apt -

. . . some, having misaimed, have turned aside to vain talking,
Desiring to be teachers of the law,
though they understand neither the things that they say, nor concerning what they confidently affirm.(1 Tim. 1:5-7)

oikonomia said:

The accusation is dismissed as a slandering lie.

This makes little sense.

Click to expand...

Exodus 19:5-8 LSV
5 And now, if you really listen to My voice, then you have kept My covenant, and have been a special treasure to Me more than all the peoples, for all the earth [is] Mine;
6 and you are to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation: these [are] the words which you speak to the sons of Israel."
7 And Moses comes, and calls for [the] elderly of the people, and sets before them all these words which YHWH has commanded him;
8 and all the people answer together and say, "All that YHWH has spoken we do"; and Moses returns the words of the people to YHWH.

Exodus 24:4-8 LSV
4 And Moses writes all the words of YHWH, and rises early in the morning, and builds an altar under the hill, and twelve standing pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel;
5 and he sends the youths of the sons of Israel, and they cause burnt-offerings to ascend, and sacrifice sacrifices of peace-offerings to YHWH—calves.
6 And Moses takes half of the blood and puts [it] in basins, and he has sprinkled half of the blood on the altar;
7 and he takes the Scroll of the Covenant, and proclaims [it] in the ears of the people, and they say, "All that which YHWH has spoken we do, and we obey."
8 And Moses takes the blood and sprinkles [it] on the people, and says, "Behold, the blood of the covenant which YHWH has made with you, concerning all these things."

The above covenant was broken and the tablets were also broken:

Exodus 32:19 LSV
19 And it comes to pass, when he has drawn near to the camp, that he sees the calf, and the dancing, and the anger of Moses burns, and he casts the tablets out of his hands, and breaks them below the mountain;

The second Covenant:

Exodus 34:27 LSV
10 And He says, "Behold, I am making a covenant. I do wonders before all your people, which have not been done in all the earth, or in any nation, and all the people in whose midst you [are in] have seen the work of YHWH, for it [is] fearful—that which I am doing with you.
11 Observe for yourself that which I am commanding you today. Behold, I am casting out from before you the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite;
12 take heed to yourself lest you make a covenant with the inhabitant of the land into which you are going, lest it become a snare in your midst;
13 for you break down their altars, and you shatter their standing pillars, and you cut down its Asherim;
14 for you do not bow yourselves to another god—for YHWH, whose Name [is] Zealous, is a zealous God.
15 Lest you make a covenant with the inhabitant of the land, and they have gone whoring after their gods, and have sacrificed to their gods, and [one] has called to you, and you have eaten of his sacrifice,
16 and you have taken of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters have gone whoring after their gods, and have caused your sons to go whoring after their gods;
17 you do not make a molten god for yourself.
18 You keep the Celebration of Unleavened Things; [for] seven days you eat unleavened things, as I have commanded you, at an appointed time, [in] the month of Abib: for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.
19 All opening a womb [are] Mine, and every firstling of your livestock born a male, [whether] ox or sheep;
20 and you ransom the firstling of a donkey with a lamb; and if you do not ransom, then you have beheaded it; you ransom every firstborn of your sons, and they do not appear before Me empty.
21 [For] six days you work, and on the seventh day you rest; in plowing-time and in harvest you rest.
22 And you observe [the] Celebration of Weeks for yourself, of [the] first-fruits of wheat-harvest; and the Celebration of Ingathering at the revolution of the year.
23 Three times in a year all your males appear before the Lord YHWH, God of Israel;
24 for I dispossess nations from before you, and have enlarged your border, and no man desires your land in your going up to appear before your God YHWH three times in a year.
25 You do not slaughter the blood of My sacrifice with a fermented thing; and the sacrifice of the Celebration of the Passover does not remain until morning.
26 You bring the first of the first-fruits of the land into the house of your God YHWH. You do not boil a kid in its mother’s milk."
27 And YHWH says to Moses, "Write these words for yourself, for I have made a covenant with you and with Israel according to the tenor of these words."

The first Ten Rhemata were spoken and cannot be revoked: they stand forever because they are Rhema-Spoken Word of Elohim and will never be annulled. The second Ten are Logous, which is reason, reasoning, and understanding: the actual meaning of the spoken or written words, the actual meaning of the Author of those words. This is why the second Covenant was "according to the tenor of these words", for if the rulers of the people did not understand those words according to the Logos of Elohim then they failed to observe the covenant according to the way which would have been pleasing to the Father: not only that but they foisted their incorrect outward and physical natural man understandings of the Torah upon the whole nation, for their handwritten dogmas and decrees were binding upon the whole nation.

This covenant in Exodus 34 is therefore the covenant of which Paul speaks in 2Cor 3, not only by the context from which he quotes, but by the Logos-understanding in the contexts of both passages. Thus, when Paul mentions the "old covenant", it is the second covenant from the Exodus 34 passage which he quotes from which is the old covenant: for it surely concerns the incorrect natural man understandings and interpretations of the Torah by the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were in error because they were according to the wrong tenor. The rest of this has already been briefly explained but you rejected what has been shown from the scripture in favor of your own paradigm.

daq said:

This covenant in Exodus 34 is therefore the covenant of which Paul speaks in 2Cor 3, not only by the context from which he quotes, but by the Logos-understanding in the contexts of both passages. Thus, when Paul mentions the "old covenant", it is the second covenant from the Exodus 34 passage which he quotes from which is the old covenant: for it surely concerns the incorrect natural man understandings and interpretations of the Torah by the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were in error because they were according to the wrong tenor. The rest of this has already been briefly explained but you rejected what has been shown from the scripture in favor of your own paradigm.

Click to expand...

Exodus 34:1 - Then Jehovah said to Moses, Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write upon the tablets the words which were on the first tablets, which you shattered.

Were the words written on the second pair of stone tablets "the words which were on the first tablets" or not?
If they were the same words you have no case to think the second words on the second set of tablets was some second NEW covenant.

Did Moses smash the first tablets of stone? Yes, in anger to thier all too soon idolatry he smashed them.
So after a time God called him up the mountain to receive the same words of the same covenant on new unbroken tablets.

Then Jehovah said to Moses, Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write upon the tablets the words which were on the first tablets, which you shattered. (34:1)

If in Romans 7 Paul says that the law was holy, righteous, good, and spiritual then he would be wrong IF he was referring to
what YOU discribe as " the incorrect natural man understandings and interpretations of the Torah by the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were in error because they were according to the wrong tenor. "

So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

If I understand your claim then I could esentially read Romans 7:12 like this -

So then [ the incorrect natural man understandings and interpretations of the Torah by the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were in error ] is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good.

oikonomia said:

Exodus 34:1 - Then Jehovah said to Moses, Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write upon the tablets the words which were on the first tablets, which you shattered.

Were the words written on the second pair of stone tablets "the words which were on the first tablets" or not?
If they were the same words you have no case to think the second words on the second set of tablets was some second NEW covenant.

Click to expand...

This was already answered once.
However I will offer a more complete answer below which you will surely also not be able to believe.

oikonomia said:

Did Moses smash the first tablets of stone? Yes, in anger to thier all too soon idolatry he smashed them.
So after a time God called him up the mountain to receive the same words of the same covenant on new unbroken tablets.

Then Jehovah said to Moses, Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write upon the tablets the words which were on the first tablets, which you shattered. (34:1)

If in Romans 7 Paul says that the law was holy, righteous, good, and spiritual then he would be wrong IF he was referring to
what YOU discribe as " the incorrect natural man understandings and interpretations of the Torah by the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were in error because they were according to the wrong tenor. "

So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 7:12)

If I understand your claim then I could esentially read Romans 7:12 like this -

So then [ the incorrect natural man understandings and interpretations of the Torah by the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were in error ] is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately one who is unlearned in the scripture may hardly see the differences between Rhema and Logos, and especially not in the Hebrew text without the aid of the Septuagint from which Paul is expounding in 2Cor 3. Since I see you have been posting Greek texts to Jorge over in your joint lambasting thread here is some for you which answers your dilemma, (whether you are able to see it or not).

Exodus 34:1 OG LXX
1 και ειπεν κυριος προς μωυσην λαξευσον σεαυτω δυο πλακας λιθινας καθως και αι πρωται και αναβηθι προς με εις το ορος και γραψω επι των πλακων τα ρηματα α ην εν ταις πλαξιν ταις πρωταις αις συνετριψας

It is clear from the 2Cor 3 passage context that Paul is expounding from the LXX-Septuagint, and not from the Hebrew text, and this may be seen by the fact that Paul mentions so much about glory: for there is nothing actually said in the Hebrew text about glory, (H3519 kabowd), except for the statements that the face of Mosheh shone, (H7160 qaran), and that is all that it says about his face, while the Septuagint adds forms of glory, (glorious, glorified), to explain a more complete understanding of the Hebrew word for to shine or shone in this context.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
7 ει δε η διακονια του θανατου εν γραμμασιν εντετυπωμενη λιθοις εγενηθη εν δοξη ωστε μη δυνασθαι ατενισαι τους υιους ισραηλ εις το προσωπον μωυσεως δια την δοξαν του προσωπου αυτου την καταργουμενην
8 πως ουχι μαλλον η διακονια του πνευματος εσται εν δοξη
9 ει γαρ η διακονια της κατακρισεως δοξα πολλω μαλλον περισσευει η διακονια της δικαιοσυνης δοξη
10 και γαρ ου δεδοξασται το δεδοξασμενον εν τουτω τω μερει εινεκεν της υπερβαλλουσης δοξης
11 ει γαρ το καταργουμενον δια δοξης πολλω μαλλον το μενον εν δοξη

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
7 But if the administering of death in letters engraved in stones came with glory, so that the sons of Yisrael were not able to look steadfastly at the face of Mosheh because of the glory of his face, which was passing away,
8 how shall not the administering of the Spirit be with more glory?
9 For if the administering of condemnation is with glory, much more does the administering of righteousness abound with glory:
10 for not even that which has been glorious has been glorious in this respect, on account of the surpassing glory,
11 for if that which is passing away is by way of glory, much more that which remains is with glory.

Exodus 34:28-35 LSV
28 And he is there with YHWH forty days and forty nights; he has not eaten bread, and he has not drunk water; and he writes on the tablets the matters of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.
29 And it comes to pass, when Moses is coming down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony [are] in the hand of Moses in his coming down from the mountain), that Moses has not known that the skin of his face has shone in His speaking with him,
30 and Aaron sees—all the sons of Israel also—Moses, and behold, the skin of his face has shone, and they are afraid of coming near to him.
31 And Moses calls to them, and Aaron and all the princes in the congregation return to him, and Moses speaks to them;
32 and afterward all the sons of Israel have come near, and he charges them with all that YHWH has spoken with him in Mount Sinai.
33 And Moses finishes speaking with them, and puts a veil on his face;
34 and in the going in of Moses before YHWH to speak with Him, he turns aside the veil until his coming out; and he has come out and has spoken to the sons of Israel that which he is commanded;
35 and the sons of Israel have seen the face of Moses, that the skin of the face of Moses has shone, and Moses has put back the veil on his face until his going in to speak with Him.

Exodus 34:28-35 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
28 And Moses was there before the Lord forty days, and forty nights; he did not eat bread, and he did not drink water; and he wrote upon the tables these words of the covenant, the ten sayings.
29 And when Moses went down from the mountain, there were the two tables in the hands of Moses, - as then he went down from the mountain, Moses knew not that the appearance of the skin of his face was glorified, when God spoke to him.
30 And Aaron and all the elders of Israel saw Moses, and the appearance of the skin of his face was made glorious, and they feared to approach him.
31 And Moses called them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the synagogue turned towards him, and Moses spoke to them.
32 And afterwards all the children of Israel came to him, and he commanded them all things, whatsoever the Lord had commanded him in the mount of Sina.
33 And when he ceased speaking to them, he put a veil on his face.
34 And whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak to him, he took off the veil till he went out, and he went forth and spoke to all the children of Israel whatsoever the Lord commanded him.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that it was glorified; and Moses put the veil over his face, till he went in to speak with him.

This knowledge, that indeed Paul is expounding from the Greek text in 2Cor3, is critical to the understanding for several reasons, one of which being that, where the Hebrew text may be somewhat limited, the Greek text allows for more explanation just as in the case with glory, glorious, and glorified in the above texts. The next critically important place where this happens is with the Hebrew word dabar, a word, or a matter, or a saying, etc., but dabar cannot tell us the difference between rhema and logos, which things can really only be understood from the meanings of those Greek words and the contexts wherein they are used. The understanding may be perceived and understood from within the Hebrew text, but only by the context, for dabar is used in either sense. Because of this the Greek writings of the Apostles teach the meanings of rhema and logos, (if one is not already familiar with the LXX), and when we go back to the LXX-Septuagint we see that the meanings are the same for how the same two words are employed in the Apostolic Writings. By the differences in the meanings of these two words, rhema and logos, we find in the LXX-Septuagint what we might have had a more difficult time seeing or even noticing in the Hebrew text because dabar is rendered with both rhema and logos in the LXX, and this is the case with "the Ten Commandments", (both Rhema and Logos are used).

So then, because of these things, we have a critically important clue from the LXX-Septuagint which helps us to understand what is going on with the differences between the first "Ten Words", (which are Rhema, spoken Word), and the second set of "Ten Words" which are Logos, (the understanding of the Rhema).

The first set of the Ten Words: τα δεκα ρηματα

Deuteronomy 4:12-13 OG LXX
12 και ελαλησεν κυριος προς υμας εκ μεσου του πυρος φωνην ρηματων υμεις ηκουσατε και ομοιωμα ουκ ειδετε αλλ η φωνην
13 και ανηγγειλεν υμιν την διαθηκην αυτου ην ενετειλατο υμιν ποιειν τα δεκα ρηματα και εγραψεν αυτα επι δυο πλακας λιθινας

The second set of the Ten Words: τους δεκα λογους

Deuteronomy 10:3-4 OG LXX
3 και εποιησα κιβωτον εκ ξυλων ασηπτων και ελαξευσα τας δυο πλακας τας λιθινας ως αι πρωται και ανεβην εις το ορος και αι δυο πλακες επι ταις χερσιν μου
4 και εγραψεν επι τας πλακας κατα την γραφην την πρωτην τους δεκα λογους ους ελαλησεν κυριος προς υμας εν τω ορει εκ μεσου του πυρος και εδωκεν αυτας κυριος εμοι

Exodus 34:28 OG LXX
28 και ην εκει μωυσης εναντιον κυριου τεσσαρακοντα ημερας και τεσσαρακοντα νυκτας αρτον ουκ εφαγεν και υδωρ ουκ επιεν και εγραψεν τα ρηματα ταυτα επι των πλακων της διαθηκης τους δεκα λογους

Another reason it is critical to understand that Paul is expounding from the LXX in 2Cor 3, and why he is doing so, is that the LXX tells us that the words in Exodus 34 are what was actually written in the second set of tablets, and they are surely not the same exact words: for they are Logos, an expounding of the Rhema, what was first spoken and then written in Exodus 20.

Exodus 34:28 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
28 And Moses was there before the Lord forty days, and forty nights; he did not eat bread, and he did not drink water; and he wrote upon the tables these words of the covenant, the ten sayings.

"these words of the covenant" = the words written in Exodus 34

So you play the rhema verses logos card on me.
The rhema verses the logos move doesn't help you heresy daq.

oikonomia said:

So you play the rhema verses logos card on me.
The rhema verses the logos move doesn't help you heresy daq.

Click to expand...

That just shows that you do not understand the relationship between Rhema and Logos.
Start with Eph 6:17 and Heb 4:12 and add those passages with their contexts to your study list.

And, no, this is not a card game, (at least not for me). And as for your charge of heresy, it is relative, depending on who is making the accusation and who they oppose and are accusing, and of old time it was generally an accusation made by Pharisees and later Popes who sought to either crucify or burn someone at the stake: so I guess you are in good company if you believe Pharisees and Popes are good company. To each his or her own I suppose.

daq said:

That just shows that you do not understand the relationship between Rhema and Logos.
Start with Eph 6:17 and Heb 4:12 and add those passages with their contexts to your study list.

And, no, this is not a card game, (at least not for me). And as for your charge of heresy, it is relative, depending on who is making the accusation and who they oppose and are accusing, and of old time it was generally an accusation made by Pharisees and later Popes who sought to either crucify or burn someone at the stake: so I guess you are in good company if you believe Pharisees and Popes are good company. To each his or her own I suppose.

Click to expand...

If the word heresy is too strong then "plain wrong headed teaching" will do.

The fading glory is the law of Moses. It is not something else that you don't like in Judiasm's history.
The surpassing glory is the new covenant ministry of the Spirit

The ministry of condemnation is the law of Moses. It is not other errors God was unhappy with in Israel's history.
The ministry of death was that law of Moses. You long to shift the label to something else that made Jehovah unhappy.

I take the Apostle Paul interpretation as what God reveals to the church.
Moses with the shinning face did not want the Israelites to notice the fading away of that splendor.
And to the apostle it signifies the fading glory of the old covenant.
It is not the fading glory of what the Pharisees and scribes amended on to the law, though that also be superceded.

The contrast is that the old covenant came through glory.
But the new covenant subsists in glory.

The contrast is the old covenant's glory was temporary.
The new covenant glory is abounding and eternal.

The contrast is the old covenant glory shined on the face of one man - Moses.
The new covenant glory shines within millions.

The old convenant ministry glory was just on the surface of the face of Moses.
The new covenant ministry imparts a glory within working its way from the center to the circumference of man's being.
Eventually from within it will burst for even into the transfigured body.


I think you are obfuscating and trying to use sheer volume of discussion to give a false impression.
By making your Exodus more complicated then it need be you seem to suggest that if only I saw MORE there
I would realize Second Corinthians three is heaping all the negatives on something OTHER THAN it is.

It doesn't work. You assume perhaps that I never heard of the rhema and the logos of God's word.
I'm sorry. I understand something about the rhema and the logos.
Both are critical. I cannot live without either. Especially I cannot live without the rhema of God's instant, express speaking to me
personally. Of course I can not be saved without the logos being received by me. Thank God for His mercy that I believe the logos.

Jesus comes back in victory as the Logos of God.

And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows but Himself.
And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God. (Rev. 19:12,13)

He came as God the Word become flesh.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. (v.14)

He prepares the church with the constant washing of the water of the rhema to present her spotless and without wrinkle to Himself
That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word, (Eph. 5:26)

One last point on this post:
We new testament believers should still revere the light, conviction, purity, correction, and profitable insight of the entire
old testament. All Scrtipture is profitble for reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be
complete for every good work. The only Scripture around when Paul wrote this to Timothy was the Hebrew Bible.

You see not having myopic vision, we Christians should be able to see both the fading of the old covenant principle of law keeping
and at the same time live every word that proceeds from the mouth of God as our necessary nourishing food.

Until I come, attend to the public reading, to the exhortation, to the teaching. ( 1 Tim. 4:13)

And that from a babe you have known the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (2 Tim. 3:15,16)

daq said:

That just shows that you do not understand the relationship between Rhema and Logos.
Start with Eph 6:17 and Heb 4:12 and add those passages with their contexts to your study list.

And, no, this is not a card game, (at least not for me).

Click to expand...

I think you are obfuscating and trying to use sheer volume of discussion to give a false impression.
By making your Exodus more complicated then it need be you seem to suggest that if only I saw MORE there
I would realize Second Corinthians three is heaping all the negatives on something OTHER THAN it is.

It doesn't work. You assume perhaps that I never heard of the rhema and the logos of God's word.
I'm sorry. I understand something about the rhema and the logos.
Both are critical. I cannot live without either. Especially I cannot live without the rhema of God's instant, express speaking to me
personally. Of course I can not be saved without the logos being received by me. Thank God for His mercy that I believe the logos.

Jesus comes back in victory as the Logos of God.

And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows but Himself.
And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God. (Rev. 19:12,13)

He came as God the Word become flesh.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. (v.14)

He prepares the church with the constant washing of the water of the rhema to present her spotless and without wrinkle to Himself
That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word, (Eph. 5:26)

One last point on this post:
We new testament believers should still revere the light, conviction, purity, correction, and profitable insight of the entire
old testament. All Scrtipture is profitble for reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be
complete for every good work. The only Scripture around when Paul wrote this to Timothy was the Hebrew Bible.

You see do not having myopic "anti-law" vision. We Christians should be able to see both the fading of the old covenant principle of law keeping and at the same time live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God as our necessary nourishing food.

Until I come, attend to the public reading, to the exhortation, to the teaching. ( 1 Tim. 4:13)

And that from a babe you have known the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (2 Tim. 3:15,16)