From Above or Again?

[muddleglum]

In John 3:3 Yeshua answered him, "“Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew,*n1 he can’t see the Kingdom of God.”"
Footnote n1 says: The word translated “anew” here and in Yochanan 3:7 (anothen) also means “again” and “from above”.

This is correct for the Greek. However, would this conversation be in Greek? I'm not sure, but assuming otherwise, would there be a similar word or phrase in the Aramaic (which I would assume the conversation is in) or the Hebrew?

Or am I overlooking anything?

Thank you for any help.

 

[Meowzltov]

No, the actual conversation is not in Greek, although the gospel is written in Greek. I think the correct translation would have to be "anew" or "again" because of Nicodemus' response, "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Nic would not have asked this question if Jesus had said "born from above."

 

[muddleglum]

No, the actual conversation is not in Greek, although the gospel is written in Greek. I think the correct translation would have to be "anew" or "again" because of Nicodemus' response, "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Nic would not have asked this question if Jesus had said "born from above."

Thank you. However, the conversation makes excellent sense in Greek when it comes to this phrase. In the Greek, Jesus used an idiom that could mean either again or above. So the conversation would be

Yeshua answered him, "“Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born from above he can’t see the Kingdom of God.”"
Nicodemus: Uh? Born again?
Yeshua answered him, "“Are you the teacher of Israel, and don’t understand these things?...​

That is, that thread's topic was on a spiritual level, but Nicodemus, thinking on the physical level, gets off topic. (That's pretty common with us humans.)

The above is how it can be translated from the Greek and it makes good sense that way. However, the question that I have is if there is a similar phrase that John was translating to the Greek in the first place. If not, then I can agree with your interpretation.

 

[Meowzltov]

But see, that would make sense. If jesus said, you must be born from above, nicodemus wouldn't have asked, born again? He would have understood right away the spiritual context of the discussion. Instead he thinks it is about a second physical birth. No... Jesus did not say born from above. He said born anew/again.

 

[muddleglum]

But see, that would make sense. If jesus said, you must be born from above, nicodemus wouldn't have asked, born again? He would have understood right away the spiritual context of the discussion. Instead he thinks it is about a second physical birth. No... Jesus did not say born from above. He said born anew/again.

I'm sorry. I'm a very poor communicator. Perhaps someone else might understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[ContraMundum]

It's both. A play on words. One can't be born again unless it is from above. Interesting that the Greek phrasing lends itself to the notion that "Water and Spirit" are one phrase, not two unrelated things as some teach. Ancient Jews (and some now) believe that cleansing in the mikveh (esp for conversion) was a "rebirth". The earliest Christians understood baptism to be just like that. But I think it is more complex than that (lots of theories around) and yet so simple too.

a) you must be born again. Not an option.
b) you must be born by God's power, you cannot do it on your own.
c) you gotta get to that mikveh/be baptized. It's water and Spirit, not water or Spirit.

 

[muddleglum]

It's both. A play on words. One can't be born again unless it is from above. Interesting that the Greek phrasing lends itself to the notion that "Water and Spirit" are one phrase, not two unrelated things as some teach. Ancient Jews (and some now) believe that cleansing in the mikveh (esp for conversion) was a "rebirth". The earliest Christians understood baptism to be just like that. But I think it is more complex than that (lots of theories around) and yet so simple too.

a) you must be born again. Not an option.
b) you must be born by God's power, you cannot do it on your own.
c) you gotta get to that mikveh/be baptized. It's water and Spirit, not water or Spirit.

Thank you for taking the time to read and answer. However, because I'm uncertain, what does your initial pronoun "It" mean? Both in Aramaic and Hebrew? Or both meaning in the Greek? That last I already accept as true, but my question involves the other languages.

So you are saying that there is a phrase, idiom, or word in Aramaic/Hebrew that could carry both meanings like in the Greek? Sorry for my lack of communication skills.

 

[seekingsolace]

In John 3:3 Yeshua answered him, "“Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew,*n1 he can’t see the Kingdom of God.”"
Footnote n1 says: The word translated “anew” here and in Yochanan 3:7 (anothen) also means “again” and “from above”.

This is correct for the Greek. However, would this conversation be in Greek? I'm not sure, but assuming otherwise, would there be a similar word or phrase in the Aramaic (which I would assume the conversation is in) or the Hebrew?

Or am I overlooking anything?

Thank you for any help.

My guesstimate - 'men derish' I think would be the Aramaic counterpart, not sure. it would lend itself to a double entendre so worth not ruling out original dialogue as Aramaic.

 

[muddleglum]

My guesstimate - 'men derish' I think would be the Aramaic counterpart, not sure. it would lend itself to a double entendre so worth not ruling out original dialogue as Aramaic.

Thank you very much. Perhaps someone else could also shed some light here.
I do know that the plays on words are constant and often hidden by our English translations unless footnotes are added.

 

[ContraMundum]

Thank you for taking the time to read and answer. However, because I'm uncertain, what does your initial pronoun "It" mean? Both in Aramaic and Hebrew? Or both meaning in the Greek? That last I already accept as true, but my question involves the other languages.

So you are saying that there is a phrase, idiom, or word in Aramaic/Hebrew that could carry both meanings like in the Greek? Sorry for my lack of communication skills.

I was referring to the Greek- which is the only text we have. To try to guess what any other language may or may not have said is just speculation, and I don't think speculations get us anywhere. The Holy Spirit inspired the Greek, as far as we can tell (if one believes in the inspiration of scripture) so that's all we have to go on.