• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

From a Calvinist to Calvinists -- was Adam the only living Arminian?

cdevidal

Junior Member
Jun 15, 2006
39
1
Jacksonville, FL
Visit site
✟22,664.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am a Christian who agrees with the five points but am not afraid to ask tough questions about them -- if they are Biblical they will withstand, as Spurgeon said :)

We understand that it is our depraved nature that we would always and only choose to sin against God, never righteousness as non-Calvinists believe.

But what do you think about Adam's free will? Obviously God did not coerce him to sin and obviously he did not have an ancestor like we do to inherit a sin nature from. Was Adam the only living Arminian? :D In other words, was he the only one able to choose between a righteousness and unrighteousness?


To reject the volume of scripture that supports the five points just because of Adam's situation is absurd -- we don't know enough about him. But this has always bothered me and I'd like to know.

Perhaps I'll never know this side of glory.
 

frumanchu

God's justice does not demand second chances
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2003
6,719
469
48
Ohio
✟85,280.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
WardSmythe said:
I'm not a Calvinist, but if you truly follow the TULIP then you have to accept the fact that even Adam's choice was ordained by God.

IOW, Calvinism would teach that Adam chose just as God wanted him to.

That's true, bro. However, I think what he is asking is what led Adam to choose to sin given than he was not created with a fallen nature to begin with.

The answer is that we simply don't know. Adam's choice to sin was "spontaneous" in the sense that it was not the direct result of an inate inclination towards sin as is the case with fallen men descendant from Adam.

To be sure though, Adam's choice to sin was indeed ordained by God, yet in such a way as God is not the author of that sin.
 
Upvote 0

mlqurgw

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2005
5,828
540
70
kain tuck ee
✟8,844.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I believe that Adam went into sin with his eyes wide open. We are not told anywhere in Scripture that Adam was deceived. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil doesn't require that Adam had no understanding of what evil was. He could have known about it in an intellectual manner but not experiencialy until he rebelled against God's command. Knowing the command of God and knowing the consequence of disobedience for Eve, he desired Eve more than God. In essence he shook his fist in God's face and by his action declared that God had no right to take Eve from him. he ate the fruit desiring to die with Eve rather than to live with God. Now he knew evil by experience. His will was still bound by his nature and ability as much as ours is. The only difference is that he was without sin until he disobeyed. No one denies that men make choices but that those choices are influenced by all sorts of things. Adam made a choice and by it plunged us all into a state of spiritual death.
 
Upvote 0

WardSmythe

Regular Member
Mar 27, 2003
403
36
Richmond, Virginia
Visit site
✟23,228.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
frumanchu said:
That's true, bro. However, I think what he is asking is what led Adam to choose to sin given than he was not created with a fallen nature to begin with.

Fair enough. I've never claimed to be an expert in Reformed Theology. :)
 
Upvote 0

PETE_

Count as lost, every moment not spent loving God
Jun 11, 2006
170,116
7,562
60
✟220,061.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
After recieving grace we still can sin if we chose just as Adam did. Before that we can chose we just cannot chose God. Adam never had that separation from God. He had that grace for his start. he still faced punishmemt from sin as we do, but he did not lose salvation.
 
Upvote 0

cdevidal

Junior Member
Jun 15, 2006
39
1
Jacksonville, FL
Visit site
✟22,664.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
WardSmythe said:
I'm not a Calvinist, but if you truly follow the TULIP then you have to accept the fact that even Adam's choice was ordained by God.

IOW, Calvinism would teach that Adam chose just as God wanted him to.

To throw out Calvinism simply based upon this conclusion alone wouldn't be wise; as I said there is a huge body of scripture that supports it.

It's like asking where Cain got his wife; when an atheist stands before God he's not going to defend his choice because he wanted to know where some guy got his wife; he shouldn't join the "duh" club.

Perhaps there is some other conclusion -- which is why I am here. Perhaps we'll never know this side of glory; perhaps one day God will say, "Yes, Calvin was right, and here's the thing about Adam..." and we'll all say, "OHHH! That makes sense!"
 
Upvote 0

cdevidal

Junior Member
Jun 15, 2006
39
1
Jacksonville, FL
Visit site
✟22,664.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
frumanchu said:
He did not choose Eve over God, he chose Adam over God. There's an important difference there.

Schwing! Rimshot! Good one.


Seriously, our sin nature is why we sin. Why do you suppose Adam sinned? Certainly God never coerces man to sin as the Arminians charge (and some hyper-Calvinists believe).


To non-Calvinists (this question really isn't addressed to you, but since you're reading...)

No classic Calvinist in the Spurgeon/Piper/Sproul/Edwards/Whitfield/Owen sense believes that God forced Adam to sin. Only "hyper-Calvinists" believe that.

For the sake of the love of the brotherhood, PLEASE

PLEASE

PLEASE

PLEASE

spend 15 minutes associating yourself with the differences. I have read many who have attacked the five points incorrectly and if they hadn't used the word "Calvinist" here and there I WOULDN'T KNOW THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT ME!

So please, for the sake of love, learn the difference. Click here.
 
Upvote 0

UMP

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2004
5,022
116
✟5,772.00
Faith
Christian
cdevidal said:
Why do you suppose Adam sinned?

I think Adam wanted to have the knowledge of "good and evil." Adam wanted to be God or "as" God.


Regardless of whether I am correct or not, the following by Pink is the best thing I've ever read on the subject of Adam:

"But right here a very formidable difficulty confronts us. From God's standpoint the result of Adam's probation was not left in uncertainty. Before he formed him out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, God knew exactly how the appointed test would terminate. With this statement every Christian reader must be in accord, for, to deny God's foreknowledGen. is to deny his omniscience, and this is to repudiate one of the fundamental attributes of Deity. But we must go further: not only had God a perfect foreknowledGen. of the outcome of Adam's trial, not only did his omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but he decreed beforehand that he should do so. This is evident not only from the general fact that nothing happens save that which the Creator and Governor of the universe has eternally purposed, but also from the express declaration of Scripture that Christ as a Lamb "verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (1Pe 1:20). If, then, God had foreordained before the foundation of the world that Christ should, in due time, be offered as a sacrifice for sin, then it is unmistakably evident that God had also foreordained sin should enter the world, and if so, that Adam should transgress and fall. In full harmony with this, God himself placed in Eden the tree of the knowledGen. of good and evil, and also allowed the Serpent to enter and deceive Eve.
Here then is the difficulty: If God has eternally decreed that Adam should eat of the tree, how could he be held responsible not to eat of it? Formidable as the problem appears, nevertheless, it is capable of a solution, a solution, moreover, which can be grasped even by the finite mind. The solution is to be found in the distinction between God's secret will and his revealed will. As stated in Appendix A 1411, human responsibility is measured by our knowledGen. of God's revealed will; what God has told us, not what he has not told us, is the definer of our duty. So it was with Adam.
That God had decreed sin should enter this world through the disobedience of our first parents was a secret hid in his own breast. Of this Adam knew nothing, and that made all the difference so far as his responsibility was concerned. Adam was quite unacquainted with the Creator's hidden counsels. What concerned him was God's revealed will. And that was plain! God had forbidden him to eat of the tree, and that was enough. But God went further: he even warned Adam of the dire consequences which would follow should he disobey — death would be the penalty. Transgression, then, on the part of Adam was entirely without excuse. Created with no evil nature in him, with a will in perfect equipoise, placed in the fairest environment, given dominion over all the lower creation, allowed full liberty with only a single restriction upon him, plainly warned of what would follow an act of insubordination to God, there was every possible inducement for Adam to preserve his innocence; and, should he fail and fall, then by every principle of righteousness his blood must lie upon his own head, and his guilt be imputed to all in whose behalf he acted.
Had God disclosed to Adam his purpose that sin would enter this world, and that he had decreed Adam should eat of the forbidden fruit, it is obvious that Adam could not have been held responsible for the eating of it. But in that God withheld the knowledGen. of his counsels from Adam, his accountability was not interfered with.
Again; had God created Adam with a bias toward evil, then human responsibility had been impaired and man's probation merely one in name. But inasmuch as Adam was included among that which God, at the end of the sixth day, pronounced "Very good", and, inasmuch as man was made "upright" (Ec 7:29), then every mouth must be stopped and the whole world must acknowledGen. itself "guilty before God" (Rom. 3:19).
Once more, it needs to be carefully borne in mind that God did not decree that Adam should sin and then inject into Adam an inclination to evil, in order that his decree might be carried out. No; "God cannot be tempted, neither tempteth he any man" (Jas 1:13). Instead, when the Serpent came to tempt Eve, God caused her to remember his command forbidding to eat of the tree of the knowledGen. of good and evil and of the penalty attached to disobedience! Thus, though God had decreed the Fall, in no sense was he the Author of Adam's sin, and at no point was Adam's responsibility impaired. Thus may we admire and adore the "manifold wisdom of God", in devising a way whereby his eternal decree should be accomplished, and yet the responsibility of his creatures be preserved intact.
perhaps. a further word should be added concerning the decretive will of God, particularly in its relation to evil. First of all we take the high ground that, whatever things God does or permits, are right, just, and good, simply because God does or permits them. When Luther gave answer to the question, "Whence it was that Adam was permitted to fall, and corrupt his whole posterity; when God could have prevented him from falling, etc", he said, "God is a Being whose will acknowledges no cause: neither is it for us to prescribe rules to his sovereign pleasure, or call him to account for what he does. He has neither superior nor equal; and his will is the rule of all things. He did not thus will such and such things because they were right, and he was bound to will them; but they are therefore equitable and right because he wills them. The will of man, indeed, may be influenced and moved; but God's will never can. To assert the contrary is to undeify him" (De Servo, Arb. c/ 153).
To affirm that God decreed the entrance of sin into his universe, and that he foreordained all its fruits and activities, is to say that which, at first may shock the reader; but reflection should show that it is far more shocking to insist that sin has invaded his dominions against his will, and that its exercise is outside his jurisdiction: for in such a case where would be his omnipotency? No; to recognise that God has foreordained all the activities of evil, is to see that he is the Governor of sin: his will determines its exercise, his power regulates its bounds (Psa. 76:10). He is neither the Inspirer nor the Infuser of sin in any of his creatures, but he is its Master, by which we mean God's management of the wicked is so entire that, they can do nothing save that which his hand and counsel, from everlasting, determined should be done.
Though nothing contrary to holiness and righteousness can ever emanate from God, yet he has, for his own wise ends, ordained his creatures to fall into sin. Had sin never been permitted, how could the justice of God have been displayed in punishing it? How could the wisdom of God have been manifested in so wondrously overruling it? How could the grace of God have been exhibited in pardoning it? How could the power of God have been exercised in subduing it? A very solemn and striking proof of Christ's acknowledgment of God's decretal of sin is seen in his treatment of Judas. The Saviour knew full well that Judas would betray him, yet we never read that he expostulated with him! Instead, he said to him, "That thou doest, do quickly" (John 13:27)! Yet, mark this was said after he had received the sop and Satan had taken possession of his heart. Judas was already prepared for and determined on his traitorous work, therefore did Christ permissively (bowing to his Father's ordination) bid him go forth to his awful work.
Thus, though God is not the author of sin, and though sin is contrary to his holy nature, yet the existence and operations of it are not contrary to his will, but subservient to it. God never tempts man to sin, but he has, by his eternal counsels (which he is now executing), determined its course. Moreover, as we have shown in 1388, though God has decreed man's sins, yet is man responsible not to commit them, and blameable because he does. Strikingly were these two sides of this awful subject brought together by Christ in that statement of his: "Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come (because God has foreordained them); but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh" (Mt 18:7). So, too, though all which took place at Calvary was by the "determinate counsel and foreknowledGen. of God" (Acts 2:23), nevertheless, "wicked hands" crucified the Lord of glory, and, in consequence, his blood has righteously rested upon them and on their children. High mysteries are these, yet it is both our happy privilege and bounden duty to humbly receive whatsoever God has been pleased to reveal concerning them in his Word of Truth.

A.W. Pink

Link: http://www.sovereign-grace.com/pink/appendix-b.htm
 
Upvote 0

WardSmythe

Regular Member
Mar 27, 2003
403
36
Richmond, Virginia
Visit site
✟23,228.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
cdevidal said:
To throw out Calvinism simply based upon this conclusion alone wouldn't be wise; as I said there is a huge body of scripture that supports it.

Agreed. Besides, there's plenty of other reasons. But that's not for this thread. :D
 
Upvote 0

cdevidal

Junior Member
Jun 15, 2006
39
1
Jacksonville, FL
Visit site
✟22,664.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
mlqurgw said:
I believe that Adam went into sin with his eyes wide open.

By the way, thank you and bless you for your honest attempt to answer the question, but I believe frumanchu was right, Adam chose Adam over God.

Anyway I'm more curious "why" Adam chose to sin. He didn't have our inherent sin nature.
 
Upvote 0

PETE_

Count as lost, every moment not spent loving God
Jun 11, 2006
170,116
7,562
60
✟220,061.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Adam chose to sin because he wanted to just as we do. Our sin nature does not "make" us sin. Not having that sin nature might have made it easier for him to resist temptation but he still had free will. Look at the millenium when the world is made perfect again and satan is bound, people still manage to turn from God. Why? because we have that free will and we want to do what we want to do. Pride is a very dangerous thing.
 
Upvote 0