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Friendly Filioque Forum

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Suzannah

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Hi James...I don't think that's what Choir Dir meant. The Orthodox do not believe the filioque at all. And they do not want it added to the Creed.

Personally and in as much as I understand it, (I am too sinful to truly grasp all this in any Godly way), the filioque is about the origin of the Holy Spirit. The wording of the Filioque seems to the Orthodox anyway, to imply that the origin of the HS is the Son, that is that the Son created the HS. These councils were so heated that's what Choir Dir was referring to. It may not have been the intention of the Western Church to imply this at all....I leave it all to the Patriarchs to iron this out ...I am not wise enough to assess it.
 
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Polycarp1

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First, my apologies for nearly killing the thread!

Second, an observation: the West sees the Sending of the Holy Spirit, as an element of the "Economic Trinity," in this passage -- and unquestionably the Holy Spirit was sent at the behest of the Son. The East sees the eternal procession in this passage, and like the Son the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, the Ultimate Ground and Origin of All Being. To me, the dispute is similar to one over the question of whether chlorophyll or sunlight makes the grass green -- both do, in quite different ways.

An even closer parallel would be the Theotokos. Typically, a Protestant's initial reaction is to see this as a case of Mariolatry -- when the intent was to emphasize the Eternal Godhood of Jesus. Mary is "She-Who-Bore-God" because she was the mother of Jesus Christ -- and He was God the Son from all eternity, including in her womb. The title was given to combat a Christological heresy, IIRC the Nestorians, not to accord a special honor to Mary. Likewise, the Filioque originated in the equating of "God" with the Father alone -- something still prevalent today, as you'll notice if you spend any time in the GA forum, where questions like how can it be just for "God" to torture Jesus abound. The idea that it was God Himself sacrificing Himself for our sakes escapes their mental horizons.

So too the Filioque. God the Holy Spirit came to our aid in response to the Will of God -- who is the Holy Trinity of which He is a part. The "Essential Trinity" which the East rightly intended to discuss with "proceeds from the Father" is confused with the "Economic Trinity" which the West rightly speaks of in "...and the Son."
 
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ChoirDir

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The events to schism
 
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JVAC

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From reading the histories, I gathered that the Orthodox didn't have a problem with Filioque, only until it found it's way into the text of the Creed. Suzanah said that, no they don't believe in filioque at all. I am a little confused here.

Also what is the official Orthodox teaching today? Could anyone post the creed without the filioque? I have never seen it. I'll post the version found in the LBW:


 
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nyj

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JVAC said:
Could anyone post the creed without the filioque? I have never seen it.
The Nicene Creed said by the Orthodox only differs in one aspect:

Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Take away the bolded part (the Orthodox do not say this phrase) and that's the entire difference between the East and West. Everything else is identical.
 
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JVAC

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I thought so, but I remember a few months ago, there seemed to be some other problems with the creed. Maybe I was hallucinating.
 
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Suzannah

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I think I just have to admit it: I'm just not as intellectually based as all of you.
But I do want to share this, because I really think it offers the Orthodox perspective. Bishop (now Saint) Nikolai Velimorovic, wrote a beautiful book called "The Faith of Chosen People". It is a phrase by phrase explanation of the Nicene Creed from the Orthodox perspective. Even if you do not agree with any of the theology, a person would have to have a heart of stone to not at least LIKE the guy...
You can read it online for free, here:
http://www.sv-luka.org/Nikolai
If the site is down, just try back later...
It's down right now...
 
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