Friendly Filioque Forum

[JVAC]

(I really like alliteration) I don't mean to start a panick by naming filioque (generally two responses, running away in horror, or lets go and rough them up a little). I want to have a nice friendly discussion over the difference, this might have already been talked to death, but hey, you can grab a cup of brew, sit on a nice comfy couch and discuss this awesome subject with some cool "brotha's from another motha".


So here is what is going down:

Let's try and figure out the problem, and discuss it. What evidence for both? Any new dialogues between the Church's? etc. etc. etc.

(Now I really want discussion/opinion from my PRE's as well as my Catholoic and Orthodox brothas and sistas. We'll consider it "Fellowship", and if someone has a 'tude, leave it with your coat.)


____________________________________________________________
Edit added message, Fellowship is another F I could have had, Man I blew it!!

 

[JVAC]

For those unfamiliar with the "Filioque" conflict, it happened in the year 1054, the result of years of tension between Rome and the other Primates (not monkeys, it means large powers). The addition of "who proceeds form the father "and the Son" in the Nicene Creed. This resulted in mass excomunications and a great resentment between east and west. If you want to learn more do a google search! Or ask your question here, and others can talk about. Yeah, forget google, you would prefer to talk to us!

-James

 

[Suzannah]

*grabbing coffee pot*....I'm all ears? Would love to hear how you would like to start?

I'm totally PRE friendly....

 

[JVAC]

First I am wondering is there a consensus that the Spirit can flow from the son, or does it always have to flow from the Father? "For I am in the Father and the Father is in me."(Jn 10:28, 14:10-11) Wouldn't this mean that even if it only does flow from the Father, since the Father is in the Son, it would only be natural to flow from the son?

 

[Suzannah]

First I am wondering is there a consensus that the Spirit can flow from the son, or does it always have to flow from the Father? "For I am in the Father and the Father is in me."(Jn 10:28, 14:10-11) Wouldn't this mean that even if it only does flow from the Father, since the Father is in the Son, it would only be natural to flow from the son?

Hmmm...well I would say that this is a non-Orthodox idea in the first place. But that it is also a mystery which would be hard to contain in this way. Using this reasoning, it would not be far before one could leap to "flowing from Mary" or Bob or anyone else....The Orthodox position is that the HS flows/proceeds from the Father alone.

 

[JVAC]

It woudldn't credit the cause any to say that Jesus is also God, though?

 

[Suzannah]

It woudldn't credit the cause any to say that Jesus is also God, though?

I'm sorry that I don't understand this question..can you be a little more descriptive? The difference in American English I think...

 

[Lotar]

But the three persons are seperate from eachother. Like the Son is begotten of the Father, they are both God, but you cannot take that to mean that the Father is also begotten of the Son.

I don't really know much about what the arguement is behind the procession of the Spirit.

 

[JVAC]

I guess I put in a lot of unecesary words, I didn't want to come off rude. What I was trying to ask is: The belief that Jesus is God, does that help straighten out that difficulty that was discussed previously? Jesus, being God, has the power to send out the Holy Spirit to whomever, howsoever he chooses. Does this change anything?

 

[Suzannah]

I guess I put in a lot of unecesary words, I didn't want to come off rude. What I was trying to ask is: The belief that Jesus is God, does that help straighten out that difficulty that was discussed previously? Jesus, being God, has the power to send out the Holy Spirit to whomever, howsoever he chooses. Does this change anything?

You're a great guy. Not rude at all. Well, I don't think it does. The Filioque has to do with the "procession" of the HS. In that, the source of the HS is the Father. That doesn't mean that Jesus cannot does not have the power to cooperate with the HS. But to say that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit anwhere is to imply in the wording that the HS is subordinate to Jesus' command. Am I getting the gist of this??? I'm a dummy so feel free to correct me in my misunderstandings....I am here for fellowship not debate...
Just trying to help out! *coffee???? tea???*

 

[Lotar]

Yep, remember that the Holy Spirit is God, equal to the Father and the Son. Don't reduce the Spirit to some formless entity to be ordered around by the other persons of the Trinity

 

[Suzannah]

Yep, remember that the Holy Spirit is God, equal to the Father and the Son. Don't reduce the Spirit to some formless entity to be ordered around by the other persons of the Trinity

Yes, this is the Orthodox view exactly.

 

[Suzannah]

I want to hear what our Catholic brothers and sisters say....this could be a very friendly and interesting conversation.

 

[nyj]

But to say that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit anwhere is to imply in the wording that the HS is subordinate to Jesus' command.

John 16:7 (KJV) : Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[Suzannah]

NYJ: I see. I am certain that the Catholic view is that the HS is equal to the Father/Son....how does this work? I would say that they cooperate. Will you explain?
I would like to know. (I'm very Catholic friendly too!)

 

[JVAC]

*opens a bottle of Juice

I didn't try an convey that the Holy Spirit is subordinate, however, the Holy Spirit doesn't choose who it goes to, the Son, who has all authority, chooses who he is well pleased to send it to. Maybe I have it wrong.

This is getting very interesting, unfortunately I have to leave for work, but I'll be back later tonight, feel free to post, even if you are alone, I like where this thread is going!

-James

 

[nyj]

NYJ: I see. I am certain that the Catholic view is that the HS is equal to the Father/Son....how does this work? I would say that they cooperate. Will you explain?

From the Baltimore Catechism (Third Lesson - On the Unity and Trinity of God):

Q. 193. Are the three Divine Persons equal in all things?


A. The three Divine Persons are equal in all things.

​

Also, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC 258 The whole divine economy is the common work of the three divine persons. For as the Trinity has only one and the same natures so too does it have only one and the same operation: "The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of creation but one principle." However, each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property. Thus the Church confesses, following the New Testament, "one God and Father from whom all things are, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are". It is above all the divine missions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit that show forth the properties of the divine persons.​

I am afraid that when it comes to the specific details of the Trinity, I cannot define it. To me, it is a mystery*, and as such I humbly submit to the authority of the Church, which is why I related you to those documents. I can only speculate which may cause confusion. Though, if asked, I guess I can try to put it in my own words.





*Much like Augustine who was told that it would be easier to pour the sea into a hole with a bucket than to explain the Trinity.

 

[Suzannah]

From the Baltimore Catechism (Third Lesson - On the Unity and Trinity of God):

Q. 193. Are the three Divine Persons equal in all things?



A. The three Divine Persons are equal in all things.


​

Also, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC 258 The whole divine economy is the common work of the three divine persons. For as the Trinity has only one and the same natures so too does it have only one and the same operation: "The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of creation but one principle." However, each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property. Thus the Church confesses, following the New Testament, "one God and Father from whom all things are, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are". It is above all the divine missions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit that show forth the properties of the divine persons.​

I am afraid that when it comes to the specific details of the Trinity, I cannot define it. To me, it is a mystery*, and as such I humbly submit to the authority of the Church, which is why I related you to those documents. I can only speculate which may cause confusion. Though, if asked, I guess I can try to put it in my own words.



*Much like Augustine who was told that it would be easier to pour the sea into a hole with a bucket than to explain the Trinity.

Thank you so much for this!!!! I too share your reluctance to speculate on it too much...I'm just too sinful to truly understand all of it...and I love Augustine too btw. I need to think about what you have posted before I say anything else. Whatever I say eventually, it will not be debate.
God bless you for sharing your faith with us.

 

[WesleyJohn]

.

 

[JVAC]

This might not be all too relevant, but just for some added understanding about the Lutherans:

I believe that by my own understanding or strength I cannot believe in Jesus Christ my Lord or come to him, but instead the Holy Spirit has called me through the Gospel, enlightened me with his gifts, made me holy, and kept me in the true faith, just as he calls, gathers, enlightens and makes holy the whole Christian church on earth and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one common, true faith. Daily in this Christian church the Holy Spirit abundantly forgives all sins -- mine and those of all believers. On the last day the Holy Spirit will raise me and all the dead and will give to me and all believers in Christ eternal life. This most certainly is true.