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MOA said:It sounds a lot more like Golden Dawn, which a lot of people mistakenly take for a concordant body of Freemasonry. I can assure you it is not. (emphasis added)
Oh yeah, the Golden Dawn was founded by a group of English Masons. While it is not a concordant body of Freemasonry, it has a connection to it; whether you want to accept it or not.
The Golden Dawn and its Connection to Freemasonry
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with your "connection." Are you trying to insist that because "a group of Masons" founded Golden Dawn, that makes it a Masonic organization, and there's nothing I can do or say about it? If not, then what?Oh yeah, the Golden Dawn was founded by a group of English Masons. While it is not a concordant body of Freemasonry, it has a connection to it; whether you want to accept it or not.
How do you expect any credibility from posting a link to a lodge of "Ancient Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons" to try to make a case for a Golden Dawn connection to regular Freemasonry?The Golden Dawn and its Connection to Freemasonry
The Golden Dawn had no masonic pretensions but the fact that the founders of the OTO made such claims opened it to accusations of being clandestine or irregular Freemasonry.
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/esoterica/index.html
MOA said:Saying "connection" and posting a link that could not possibly make your case, tell us nothing. . .They even have side-by-side comparisons of "regular Masonry" contrasting it with "esoteric Masonry."
Well, so far, you still have not elaborated for us just exactly what "case" you think you have made. You still only say "connection," and you still have not elaborated upon that, as requested, so that I may get a better idea how to respond.So if my case is not made from the Esoteric Masonic website, it is most certainly made with the one you help to moderate.
Fringe Masonry encompasses those regular freemasons whose interest in mysticism and the occult led them to such organizations as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (HOGD) and the Ordo Templi Orientis. Neither of these organizations was ever recognized by any regular masonic body. The Golden Dawn had no masonic pretensions but the fact that the founders of the OTO made such claims opened it to accusations of being clandestine or irregular Freemasonry. Since 1919 (Equinox Vol. III, No. 1) they ceased to claim being or having any authority regarding Freemasonry. Currently most masonic Grand Lodge jurisdictions are unaware of, or indifferent to, the existence or history of the OTO.
Esoteric Masonry? NOT!The group described on this page - the "Ancient, Accepted & Esoteric Freemasons" has as much to do with Esotericism and/or Freemasonry as a dog has to do with mangos!
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And if all of this didn't give you a clue, then the fact that your check to become a member is to be made out to Universal Gnostic Church at a post office box in a mountain town in North Carolina might.... Oh, and did we mention that while you're sending Betty Reeves (the name on a bunch of their websites) your check, you might also want to pay for your membership in the so-called "Magickal Order of the Golden Dawn - where you can become an adept in a year or less" or maybe you want to be part of the "Modern Order of Essenes" or perhaps buy your license as a "Spiritual Health Coach". If that's not enough, you could simultaneously join the "Order of Mary" or the "Gnostic Yoga Fellowship", all from the same place. [/FONT]
Mackey is responsible for CURRENT ritual content in more than a few jurisdictions in Masonry. Your attempt to blow this off with a huffy retort that it is "not ritual" is duly noted, and is just as duly declined as an invalid response. You, after all, have quoted from Mackey's Symbolism of Masonry on your website, where it can easily be seen that you did so in a manner that reveals you considered it "authoritative."The very spirit of all of our lectures proves conclusively that when they were formulated they were designed to teach pure trinitarian Christianity, and while the Jewish scriptures did forecast the intermediary of a Christos, as all the ancient heathen mysteries did also, yet Jesus Christ as shown and demonstrated in the writings of the New Testament, was not understood by the Jewish writers of the Old Testament, nor by but very few of that faith since. The first three degrees taken in connection with the Holy Royal Arch, as they have always been with our Brethren of England, certainly show pure Christianity, as taught throughout the writings of the New Testament scriptures. (Mackey, History of Freemasonry, p. 1769)
Yeah I know... I sent you a PM over there and you haven't responded.As for the "site I help moderate," have you even checked to see how much "moderating" I've done there lately? I haven't even posted anything there since July 3.
My bad... I sent you an email from that site. There wasnt a PM function there for some reason, and you are correct, no personal inboxes. All these forums get confusing. That, and I must need a life.Maybe it's just me, but the last few times I was there, I was trying to figure out what happened to my personal inbox, because I saw it nowhere.
there was not one of them but had its signification, and so something profitable for us to know. (p. iii.)
I may say, that God did in a manner tie up the church of the Jews to types, figures, and similitudes, and I mean to be butted and bounded by them in all external parts of worship; yea, not only the Levitical law and temple, but, as it seems to me, the whole land of Canaan, the place of their lot to dwell in, was to them a ceremonial, or a figure. Their land was a type of heaven; their passage over Jordan into it, a similitude of our going to heaven by death. The fruit of their land was said to be uncircumcised, as being at their first entrance thither unclean; in which their land was also a figure of another thing, even as heaven was a type of sin and grace.
Again, the very land itself was said to keep Sabbath, and so to rest a holy rest, even when she lay desolate, and not possessed of those to whom she was given for them to dwell in.
Yea, many of the features of the then church of God were set forth, as in figures and shadows, so by places and things in that land. . . .
I might also here shew you, that even the gifts and graces of the true church were set forth by the spices, nuts, grapes, and pomegranates that the land of Canaan brought forth. Yea, that hell itself was set forth by the valley of the sons of Hinnom, and Tophet, places in this country. Indeed the whole in a manner was typical, and a figurative thing.
But I have, in the ensuing discourse, confined myself to the temple, that immediate place of Gods worship; of whose utensils in particular, as I have said, I have spoken; though to each with what brevity I could, for that none of them are without a spiritual, and so profitable, signification to us. (P. iii-v.)
Since those very ordinances were figures of things and methods of worship, now we may, yea, we ought to search out the spiritual meaning of them, because they serve to confirm and illustrate matters to our own understandings. Yea, they shew us the more exactly how the New and Old Testament, as to the spiritualness of the worship, was as one and the same; only the Old was clouded with shadows; but ours is with more open face. (p. vii-viii.)
I dare not presume to say, that I know I have hit right in every thing, but this I can say, I have endeavoured so to do. True, I have not for these things fished in other mens waters; my Bible and Concordance are my only library in my writings. Wherefore, courteous Reader, if thou finest any thing, either in word or matter, that thou shalt judge doth vary from Gods truth, let it be counted no mans else but mine: Pray God also to pardon my fault, do thou also lovingly pass it by, and receive what thou finest will do thee good. (p. viii.)
As therefore Mount Moriah was a type of Christ as the foundation, so Solomon was a type of him as the builder of his church. The Mount was signal, for that thereon the Lord God, before Abraham and David, did display his mercy. And as Solomon built this temple, so Christ doth build his house. Yea, he shall build the everlasting temple, and he shall bear the glory. Heb. iii.3, 4. Zech. vi. 12,13. (p. 10)
The materials with which the temple was built, were such as were in their own nature common to that which was left behind; things that naturally were not fit, without art, to be laid on so holy a house. And this shews, that those of whom Christ Jesus designs to build his church are by nature no better than others. But as the trees and stones of which the temple was built were first hewed and squared before they were fit to be laid in that house; so sinners, of which the church is to be built, must first be fitted by the word and doctrine, and then fitly laid in their place in the church.
For though, as to nature, there is no difference betwixt those made use of the build Gods house with, yet by grace they differ from others; even as those threes and stones that are hewed and squared for building by art, are made to differ from those which abide in the wood or pit. (p. 11)
The timber and stones with which the temple was built, were squared and hewed in the wood or pit; and so there made every way fit for that work, even before they were brought to the place where the house should be set up: So that there was neither hammer nor ax, nor any tool of iron was heard oin the house while it was building. I Kings vi. 7.
And this shews, as was said before, that the materials of which the house was built, were (before the hand of the workman touched them) as unfit to be laid in the building, as were those that were left behind; consequently that themselves, none otherwise, but by the art of others, were made fit to be laid in this building.
To this our New-Testament temple answers; for those of the sons of Adam who are counted worthy to be laid in this building, are not by nature, but by grace, made meet for it; not by their own wisdom, but by the word of God. Hence he saith, I have hewed them by the prophets. (p. 14)
The work of the porters, or rather the reason of their watching, was to look that none, not duly qualified, entered into the house of the Lord. He set, saith the text, porters at the gates of the house of the Lord, that none which was unclean in any thing should enter in, 2 Chron. xxiii.19.
The excellency of the porters lay in these three things; their watchfulness, diligence, and valour, to make resistance to those that as unfit would attempt to enter those courts, and the house of God, I Chron. xxvi. 6. Mark xiii.34. . . .
The heart of a Christian is also sometimes called the porter, for that when the true Shepherd comes to it, to him this porter openeth also, John x.3.
This last has the body for his watch-house; the eyes and ears for his portholes; the tongue therewith to cry, Who comes there? as also to call for aid, when any thing unclean shall attempt with force and violence to enter in to defile the house. (p. 44-45)
This gate being also to open by degrees, is of signification to us, for it will be opening first by one fold, then by another, and yet will never be set wide open, until the day of judgment. For then, and not till then, will the whole of the matter be open. For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face; now we know in part, but then shall we know even as we are known, 1 Cor. xiii.2. (p. 48)
The leaves of this gate or door, as I told you before, were folding, and so, as was hinted, has something of signification in them. For by this means, a man, especially a young disciple, may easily be mistaken; thinking that the whole passage, when yet but a part, was open, whereas three parts might be kept undiscovered to him. For these doors, as I said before, were never yet set wide open, I mean in the antitype; never man yet saw all the riches and fullness which is in Christ. So that I say, a new comer, if he judgeth by present sight, especially if he saw but little, might easily be mistaken; wherefore such, for the most part, are most horribly afraid that they shall never get in thereat.
How sayst thou, young comer, is not this the case with thy soul? so it seems to thee, that thou art too big, being so great, so tun-bellied a sinner. But, O thou sinner, fear not, the doors are folding-doors, and may be opened wider, and wider again after that; wherefore, when thou comest to this gate and imaginest there is not space enough for thee to enter, knock, and it shall be wider opened unto thee, and thou shalt be received, Luke xi 9. John ix.37. So then, whoever thou art, that art come to the door, of which the temple-door was a type, trust not to they first conceptions of things, but believe there is grace abundant: thou knowest not yet what Christ can do, the doors are folding doors. He can do exceeding abundantly above all that we can ask or think, Ephes. iii.20.
By the light which shines in at the window we also see to make and keep the house clean, and also to do what business is necessary there to be done. In thy light we see light; light to do our duty, and the both to God and man.
These stairs were winding, so that they turned about that did go up them. So then he that assayed to go into those chambers must turn with the stairs, or he could not go up, no not into the lowest chambers. These stairs therefore were a type of a two-fold repentance: that by which we turn from nature to grace, and by which we turn from the imperfections which attend a state of grace to glory. Hence, true repentance or the right going up these turning stairs, is called repentance to salvation; for true repentance stoppeth not at the reception of grace, for that is but a going up these stairs to the middle chambers, 2 Cor. vii. 10.
Thus, therefore, the soul, at its going up these stairs, turns and turns, till it enters the doors of the highest chambers.
It groans, tho in a state of grace, because that is not the state of glory. I count then, that from the first to the middle chambers may be a type of turning from nature to grace. But from the middle to the highest, these stairs may signify a turning still from the imperfections and temptations that attend a state of grace, to that of immortality and glory, 2 Cor. v.1-10.
For, as there are turning stairs from the lowest to the middle chambers, so the stairs from thence still turn, and so will do, till you come to the highest chambers. I do not say, that they that have received grace do repent they have received grace; but I say, they that have received grace are yet sorry that grace is not consummate in glory; and hence they are for going up thither still by these turning stairs; yea, they cannot rest below, as they would, till they ascend to the highest chambers. O wretched man that I am! and in this we groan earnestly, is the language of gracious souls, Rom. vii. 20, 2 Cor. 1, 2, 3.
True, every one doth not do thus that comes into the Temple of God; many rest below stairs, they like not to go turning upward. Nor do I believe, that all that bid fair for ascending to the middle chambers, get up to the highest stories, to his stories in the Heavens. Many in churches, who seem to be turned from nature to grace, have not the grace to go up turning still, but rest in that shew of things, and so die below a share in the highest chambers.
All these things are true in the antitype; and, as I think, prefigured by those turning stairs to the chambers of the temple. But this turning, and turning still, displeases some much; they say, it makes them giddy. But I say, there is no way like this to make a man stand steady, stedfast in the faith, and with boldness in the day of judgment. For he has this seated in his heart, I went up the turning stairs till I came to the highest chambers. A strait pair of stairs are like that ladder by which men ascend to the gallows; they are the turning ones that lead us to the heavenly mansion-house.
Look, therefore, you that come into the Temple of God to worship, that you stay not at the foot of these turning stairs, but go up thence, yea, up them, and up them, and up them, till you come to the view of the Heavens; yea, till you are possessed of the highest chambers. How many times has God, by the Scripture, called upon you to turn, and told you, you must turn or die; and now here he has added to his call a figure, by placing a pair of turning stairs in his Temple, to convict your very senses, that you must turn, if you mean to go up into his holy chambers, and so into his eternal mansion-houses. And look that you turn to purpose, for every turning will not serve. Some turn but not to the Most High and so turn to no purpose. (p. 60-62)
That would be a breath of fresh air, but I doubt it was sincere. The "proud" remark looks more like a slam attempt, but it comes across as more of a friendly slap.Was that a sincere sentiment?
Being the eternal optimist, I will choose to believe it was a compliment until evidence to the contrary proves me wrong.That would be a breath of fresh air, but I doubt it was sincere.
I am also a former mason. It is clearly not compatible with Christianity. It would be a direct opposite to Christianity. Just my .02
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